while the US banned sale of cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia, Russia uses cluster bombs in Syria

[Assadynasty]

https://twitter.com/x/status/739521779622936580

 

[Assadynasty]

@C130 @Falcon29 @Dr.Thrax @500

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

https://twitter.com/x/status/739521779622936580

 

[Arabian Stallion]

Cluster bombs should not be used in the first place but it is worth noticing that KSA used them sporadically in Yemen. Also "only" 700 civilians have died due to KSA/Arab coalition bombings in Yemen in 15 months of conflict according to the UN report. According to that same report, whose nature I cannot judge since I have not read it, the Houthi's were behind almost as many civilian casualties despite having no air force. That report has not included the civilians who have died at the hands of the Yemeni army loyal to Saleh, who are allies of the Houthi's. Nor the 2000 civilian Yemenis who perished when the Houthi's caused the current civil war, before KSA's involvement in late March of 2015.

Nor is it a secret that Houthis, like almost EVERY OTHER guerrilla/militia/terrorist group, have a habit of hiding in populated areas deliberately. Which makes life difficult for any air force as demonstrated in countless of current and past conflicts.

To put that number in perspective (700), Israel during its brutal offensive in tiny Gaza in 2014 (only one neighborhood even) killed many more Palestinian civilians. In the span of 7 weeks. Meanwhile KSA, which controls the entire airspace of Yemen (a country the size of France), has killed fewer civilians in the span of 15 months despite many more bombing raids and despite fighting 3 opponents (Houthis, the Yemeni army loyal to the crook Ali Abdullah Saleh and AQAP in Southern Yemen) at once all across Yemen.

Anyway nobody takes such "bans" seriously when it comes from the US. A country that since WW2 has participated in an endless list of wars where an likewise endless list of civilians have perished. If KSA ever runs out of cluster bombs and wants to buy them there are other alternatives aside from producing it at home if necessary. However I see no need for it as I am against the use of cluster bombs.

Anyway to quote myself:

$240-million Al-Kharj (KSA) facility to produce top-class artillery
​

RIYADH: South African President Jacob Zuma, who was on a one-day state visit to Riyadh on Sunday, opened a projectiles factory along with Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
Both were taken on a tour by Mohamed Al-Mady, head of Saudi Military Industries Corporation. He briefed the visitors on the services and facilities at the new complex.
The complex features nine industrial buildings, each allocated to a specific productivity, such as processing, packaging, assembly and filling, destructive testing and nondestructive testing, heat and surface treatments.
The complex produces military projectiles ranging from shells of medium caliber such as mortar rounds (60mm, 81mm 120mm), artillery shells (105mm and 155mm) and heavy shells such as aircraft bombs weighing from 500 pounds to 2,000 pounds.
Al-Mady said the SR900 million Saudi Military Industries Corporation is a licensed company, which will be operating in alliance with South Africa-based Rheinmetall Denel Munition.
The facility is expected to produce 300 artillery shells or 600 mortar projectiles a day, Al-Mady said, adding that this plant would be managed by 130 engineers and operators.
South Africa-based RDM specializes in the development, design and manufacture of large- and medium-caliber ammunition families and is a world leader in the field of artillery, mortar and infantry systems as well as plant engineering.

Source. Arab News (I cannot yet post any direct links).

South African defence company partners Saudi Arabian counterpart in new factory
​

South African defence company Rheinmetall Denel Munition (RDM) has helped set up a munitions manufacturing plant in Saudi Arabia in a venture with that country's Military Industries Corporation (MIC), the Saudi Press Agency has reported. According to MIC head Mohammad Almadhi, the establishment of the plant cost some $240-million and it was built under license from, and with the assistance of, RDM. The new factory was opened on March 27 by South African President Jacob Zuma and by Saudi Deputy Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz. (Prince Mohammad is also his country's Second Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and chairperson of the board of directors of the MIC). The facility is located at Al-Kharj, in central Saudi Arabia, south of the capital, Riyadh.

The plant will manufacture 60 mm, 81 mm and 120 mm mortar bombs, 105 mm and 155 mm artillery shells and aircraft bombs ranging from 226 kg (500 lb) to 907 kg (2000 lb). It is composed of nine industrial buildings, each with its own specific function, including heat treatment and surface treatment, assembly and filling, processing, packaging and destructive and nondestructive testing. According to Almadhi, the factory has a production capacity of 300 artillery shells or 600 mortar bombs a day. It will be staffed by 130 engineers and operators. He further noted that his company was now able to make many different defence products.

RDM is a joint venture between German defence group Rheinmetall Waffe Munition and South African State-owned defence industrial group Denel and was created in 2008. Rheinmetall holds 51% of RDM and Denel the remaining 49%. RDM describes itself on its website as a company that "specialises in the development, design and manufacture of large- and medium-calibre ammunition families and is a world leader in the field of artillery, mortar and infantry systems, as well as plant engineering". The Middle East is one of its target markets.

Zuma was in Saudi Arabia on March 27 and 28 on a State visit. The aim of the visit was to strengthen political and economic ties between the two countries, including increasing trade and investment.
Consequnetly, one of the members of his delegation was Trade and Industry Minister Dr Rob Davies.

The defence industry was one of the sectors that received special attention. Other sectors highlighted by the South African delegation included agricultural products, agroprocessed goods and services, manufacturing and mineral beneficiation. The involvement of South African companies in construction and engineering in infrastructure development in Saudi Arabia, under the Saudi National Transformation Plan, was also stressed.

"We are very pleased that this State visit will ensure, among other things, continued Saudi private-sector investment in our country's renewable-energy sector in support of the National Development Plan; the South African petrochemicals sector; banking and finance; and tourism infrastructure, as well as Saudi participation as a maritime State in our Operation Phakisa," affirmed Zuma. During his visit he also addressed a meeting of high-level South African and Saudi business leaders. He urged them to set up an entity to promote business-to-business cooperation between the two countries, with the aim of increasing Saudi investment in South Africa and South African exports to Saudi Arabia.

Source: Engineering News (I cannot yet post any direct links).

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This news is around 2 months old nevertheless it has not been posted here until now.

Very soon these "babies" below will be mass produced.

​

It's good to see that we are increasing ties with several African countries. The Arab world and Africa (Sub-Saharan Africa) should cooperate much more closely. There is tremendous potential for a future fruitful relation on numerous fronts.

https://defence.pk/threads/240-million-al-kharj-ksa-facility-to-produce-top-class-artillery.433641/

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Russia (Putin) mass-murdering civilians in Syria and rarely ever attacking ISIS, is nothing new. It has been ongoing since September 2015. God knows how many civilians have perished if the even many times more devastating policies of the Al-Assad regime (daily barrel bombings etc.) was not enough!

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

https://twitter.com/x/status/739521779622936580

https://twitter.com/x/status/739521779622936580

Deadly !

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

I'm not against carpet bombing or using cluster munitions, provided that the areas being targeted are not occupied by civilians and are only occupied by enemy combatants / terrorists. Therein lies the problem, however. You can never be too sure that there are no civilians in the area that you're bombing, which is why these tactics only sound good in theory.

Anyway, all militaries should refrain from such tactics unless they are certain that there are no civilians in the targeted areas.

As for Saudi Arabia and Russia, they're both guilty of committing war crimes in Yemen and Syria, respectively. That said, the Saudis have acted far more irresponsibly than the Russians with regard to violating Geneva Conventions. It's no surprise that the Saudi-led coalition has been blacklisted by the United Nations.

 

[Arabian Stallion]

I'm not against carpet bombing or using cluster munitions, provided that the areas being targeted are not occupied by civilians and are only occupied by enemy combatants / terrorists. Therein lies the problem, however. You can never be too sure that there are no civilians in the area that you're bombing, which is why these tactics only sound good in theory.

Anyway, all militaries should refrain from such tactics unless they are certain that there are no civilians in the targeted areas.

As for Saudi Arabia and Russia, they're both guilty of committing war crimes in Yemen and Syria, respectively. That said, the Saudis have acted far more irresponsibly than the Russians with regard to violating Geneva Conventions. It's no surprise that the Saudi-led coalition has been blacklisted by the United Nations.

Well in such a case, I am in agreement, but the ground realities have repeatedly shown (in every single conflict), that this is almost impossible, as you wrote yourself. True, but conventional wars do not allow for such a thing to happen. It was easier in the Middle Ages where a bunch of opposing armies consisting of men, fought directly on open fields, lol.

Yes, both are guilty as is every party in every ongoing war. However I have to disagree with your notion of KSA acting with greater irresponsibility. As I wrote in post 3 in this thread, according to the same UN report, KSA's/the Arab coalition has been behind the killings of 700 civilians. Houthis, who btw where blacklisted long ago by UN, as every party in Yemen has been, have killed an almost equal number of civilians despite having no air force. KSA has solely killed civilians from air (maybe there have been 1-2 instances of ground forces doing so during combat but we are talking about a marginal number here) which again is largely due to the geography of Yemen, population density and most importantly the fact that Houthi's deliberately hide in populated areas which the UN report also mentioned. Another thing the UN report mentioned was the widespread use of child soldiers by the Houthi's something the KSA coalition is not guilty of.

Also we should not forget here that KSA is in full control of the Yemeni airspace and that Yemen is the size of France, that the KSA coalition is fighting not only against Houthi's but also the Yemeni army loyal to Ali Abdullah Saleh and AQAP in Southern Yemen. Nor the fact that the conflict has been ongoing for over 14 months and that there have been many more bombings than in Syria from Russia's hand.

Also Russia has probably killed considerably more civilians in Syria despite the fact that they have only been engaged in Syria for 9 months and despite fewer bombardments, if I am not wrong. However the human catastrophe that is Syria and which is in a total different league than the situation in Yemen and the length of that conflict, has made the international community close their eyes. In recent times KSA has become the new bogeyman as well in much of the international media which is not helping either.

The only reason why the UN has not blacklisted Russia is because they are one of the 5 permanent UN members in the Security Council and because they are a top 3 superpower. Likewise the US has never been blacklisted (surprise) despite killing almost 10.000 civilians in the Iraq war alone. For instance the US attack on that wedding in Afghanistan recently, which the UN report talks about, was not enough to blacklist the US contrary to UN's own criteria. Never mind that this was far from the first of such incidents in Afghanistan. Afghan casualties (civilians) since 2001 due to US bombardments are probably in the several thousands, just like in Iraq.

Of course none of this is any news nor does it excuse that KSA has killed civilians but that was to be expected by virtue of it being a war and especially of this nature. Sadly.

 

[500]

Cluster bombs make journos, housewives and stupid NGOs go nuts. But in reality regular bombs (and barrel bombs) are much more deadly.

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

Cluster bombs make journos, housewives and stupid NGOs go nuts. But in reality regular bombs (and barrel bombs) are much more deadly.

Not to mention Israel's white phosphorus munitions.

 

[Assadynasty]

Cluster bombs make journos, housewives and stupid NGOs go nuts. But in reality regular bombs (and barrel bombs) are much more deadly.

Cluster bombs do minimal damage to infrastructure. They are good against personnel since their fragments have a large kill radius.

 

[500]

Not to mention Israel's white phosphorus munitions.

Yep WP thats another boogie man for housewives. M825 white phosphorus munitions used by Israel for example are designed only to make smoke and are not more dangerous than firecrackers.

Cluster bombs do minimal damage to infrastructure. They are good against personnel since their fragments have a large kill radius.

Clusters are dangerous to personnel in open field. If u are entrenched on inside a house cluster wont do much. On the other hand regular bomb can level entire building with dozens people inside kids, women, elderly etc.

 

[Kuwaiti Girl]

Well in such a case, I am in agreement, but the ground realities have repeatedly shown (in every single conflict), that this is almost impossible, as you wrote yourself. True, but conventional wars do not allow for such a thing to happen. It was easier in the Middle Ages where a bunch of opposing armies consisting of men, fought directly on open fields, lol.

Yes, both are guilty as is every party in every ongoing war. However I have to disagree with your notion of KSA acting with greater irresponsibility. As I wrote in post 3 in this thread, according to the same UN report, KSA's/the Arab coalition has been behind the killings of 700 civilians. Houthis, who btw where blacklisted long ago by UN, as every party in Yemen has been, have killed an almost equal number of civilians despite having no air force. KSA has solely killed civilians from air (maybe there have been 1-2 instances of ground forces doing so during combat but we are talking about a marginal number here) which again is largely due to the geography of Yemen, population density and most importantly the fact that Houthi's deliberately hide in populated areas which the UN report also mentioned. Another thing the UN report mentioned was the widespread use of child soldiers by the Houthi's something the KSA coalition is not guilty of.

Also we should not forget here that KSA is in full control of the Yemeni airspace and that Yemen is the size of France, that the KSA coalition is fighting not only against Houthi's but also the Yemeni army loyal to Ali Abdullah Saleh and AQAP in Southern Yemen. Nor the fact that the conflict has been ongoing for over 14 months and that there have been many more bombings than in Syria from Russia's hand.

Also Russia has probably killed considerably more civilians in Syria despite the fact that they have only been engaged in Syria for 9 months and despite fewer bombardments, if I am not wrong. However the human catastrophe that is Syria and which is in a total different league than the situation in Yemen and the length of that conflict, has made the international community close their eyes. In recent times KSA has become the new bogeyman as well in much of the international media which is not helping either.

The only reason why the UN has not blacklisted Russia is because they are one of the 5 permanent UN members in the Security Council and because they are a top 3 superpower. Likewise the US has never been blacklisted (surprise) despite killing almost 10.000 civilians in the Iraq war alone. For instance the US attack on that wedding in Afghanistan recently, which the UN report talks about, was not enough to blacklist the US contrary to UN's own criteria. Never mind that this was far from the first of such incidents in Afghanistan. Afghan casualties (civilians) since 2001 due to US bombardments are probably in the several thousands, just like in Iraq.

Of course none of this is any news nor does it excuse that KSA has killed civilians but that was to be expected by virtue of it being a war and especially of this nature. Sadly.

1. Yemen war: Saudi coalition 'causing most civilian casualties'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35842708

"Looking at the figures, it would seem that the coalition is responsible for twice as many civilian casualties as all other forces put together, virtually all as a result of air strikes," Mr Hussein said.
"They have hit markets, hospitals, clinics, schools, factories, wedding parties - and hundreds of private residences in villages, towns and cities including the capital, Sanaa."
"Despite plenty of international demarches, these awful incidents continue to occur with unacceptable regularity."

2. UN report into Saudi-led strikes in Yemen raises questions over UK role

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...trikes-in-yemen-raises-questions-over-uk-role

The report attributes 60% (2,682) of civilian deaths and injuries in Yemen to air-launched explosive weapons.

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Yep WP thats another boogie man for housewives. M825 white phosphorus munitions used by Israel for example are designed only to make smoke and are not more dangerous than firecrackers.

Get real:

Israel: White Phosphorus Use Evidence of War Crimes

https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

When used properly in open areas, white phosphorus munitions are not illegal, but the Human Rights Watch report concludes that the IDF repeatedly exploded it unlawfully over populated neighborhoods, killing and wounding civilians and damaging civilian structures, including a school, a market, a humanitarian aid warehouse, and a hospital.

 

[500]

Get real:

Israel: White Phosphorus Use Evidence of War Crimes

https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes

They are degenerate clowns.

1) WP is not banned by any international law.
2) Israel used M825 rounds which are designed only to produce smoke and nothing else.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m825.htm

 

[Syed Hussain]

Every comment coming on the post is a "white-phosphorus-lie", where every one is justifying their end and showing their "humanity" by providing the "facts" of minimal civilian damage.... just wow
Everyone knows what Saudia did in both Yemen & Syria as well, don't teach us morality by leveling the balance with Russian use of cluster bombs, cuz we know it hurts badly to have nipped the shit out of their "Syrian Mujahideen".

 

[Hack-Hook]

They are degenerate clowns.

1) WP is not banned by any international law.
2) Israel used M825 rounds which are designed only to produce smoke and nothing else.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m825.htm

I'm sure those smokes are chosen smoke and blessed by God itself as they managed to burn several UN building to the ground . and there several pictures around the net how seriously they burned Palestinian kids .