Which stop gap fighter would you prefer for TurAF?

[Pax Ottomana]

Do you know that we need and approval from the US for any F-16 modernization?

Americans showed us that contracts and alliances are made to be broken.

 

[AerospaceTech]

Americans showed us that contracts and alliances are made to be broken.

If you have enough power, you will brake every rule like Alexander the Great.
Due to the Syrian conflict, the US embargoed Russia and France could have delivered the Mistrals.
France and Italy resisted for this restriction but they didn't have enough power for this act.

As you know we haven't been completely independent for our defence industry, if we made an unthoughtful step forward, we will kill our young defence industry.

We have to call bear as uncle until we will have become independent enough for industry and economy.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

If you have enough power, you will brake every rule like Alexander the Great.
Due to the Syrian conflict, the US embargoed Russia and France could have delivered the Mistrals.
France and Italy resisted for this restriction but they didn't have enough power for this act.

As you know we haven't been completely independent for our defence industry, if we made an unthoughtful step forward, we will kill our young defence industry.

We have to call bear as uncle until we will have become independent enough for industry and economy.

Relax. What's the worst the US can do? Not sell us any more F-16s? FINE BY ME. In fact that's kind of the point. Turkey is DONE with the US. If they want to sanction us and push us even closer with Russia and China, that'd be a strategic mistake but it's their choice. They know they won't benefit from any more anti-Turkish moves. But even if they do make such moves, we'll be alright.

The moment the US unilaterally violated the F-35 contract, we've gained full rights over the F-16s. Any international court of arbitration will see it that way.

 

[AerospaceTech]

Relax. What's the worst the US can do? Not sell us any more F-16s? FINE BY ME. In fact that's kind of the point. Turkey is DONE with the US. If they want to sanction us and push us even closer with Russia and China, that'd be a strategic mistake but it's their choice. They know they won't benefit from any more anti-Turkish moves. But even if they do make such moves, we'll be alright.

The moment the US unilaterally violated the F-35 contract, we've gained full rights over the F-16s. Any international court of arbitration will see it that way.

Do you think any Russian and Chinese alliance can be beneficial for us?
Please think about the industrial and economic sides.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Do you think any Russian and Chinese alliance can be beneficial for us?
Please think about the industrial and economic sides.

Maybe, maybe not. Even though I believe in our own indigenous weapons, I certainly wouldn't rule out such partnerships with these rising powers. It all depends on the nature of the project, what Turkey gains from such a partnership, geopolitics at the time, stance of global powers toward Turkey (especially vis-a-vis PKK/YPG, Middle East, East Med, Cyprus, Aegean, etc) and many other factors. Too many variables to determine for sure. Economic considerations come secondary to political/national priorities. Sometimes you have to follow a harder and more expensive path in order to ensure national sovereignty in the long run. We have to play chess, not backgammon.

 

[UkroTurk]

TuRAF can order from Turkish Aerospace. If we want to order something new, it won't be as fast as you think.
Maybe there is no ready to level HURJET but at least we will wait for our own project.
If we agree to order F-15 today the first squadron will get its aircraft around 2 years not shorter than Hurjet orders.

İn two years deadline, could you purchase 50 Hurjet? However 50 american fighters both F15 and F16 will be ready to fight if you order today.
I dont think in 10 years Hürjet could be operational. Even though i dont want to mention MMU .
From scratch to mass production and operational using of fighters will last long.
İf you want to accelarete your projects you need İnternational corporations such as f35 joint fighter project.
Although if you want an Air Force without fighters you could go for as your political agenda.

 

[UkroTurk]

Do you think any Russian and Chinese alliance can be beneficial for us?
Please think about the industrial and economic sides.

İf i had to copy technology i would prefer reliable and best technology.

Russian fighters are more dependent to the producer due to lack of quality.

 

[Nein]

I would say F15s especially the newer ones I dont mind Turkey taking over the F15 silent eagle project.

American or European made jets are much better than Russian or Chinese. Im not gonna say Russian or Chinese have bade jets. But we have to realistic Russian or Chinese jets just wont work for the Turkish airforce not to mention Russian exports pretty much inferior tech compared to the real one they have.

 

[AerospaceTech]

Maybe, maybe not. Even though I believe in our own indigenous weapons, I certainly wouldn't rule out such partnerships with these rising powers. It all depends on the nature of the project, what Turkey gains from such a partnership, geopolitics at the time, stance of global powers toward Turkey (especially vis-a-vis PKK/YPG, Middle East, East Med, Cyprus, Aegean, etc) and many other factors. Too many variables to determine for sure. Economic considerations come secondary to political/national priorities. Sometimes you have to follow a harder and more expensive path in order to ensure national sovereignty in the long run. We have to play chess, not backgammon.

You say we are not playing backgammon but you do play it. You don't have enough strategy to increase survivability. I know we all angry with the US but we have to increase our economical independence. If you don't do this step first, you will face the same dilemma with others who invest in some military sectors and lost lots of money and gained less. For example Russia. Putin believed that they will powerful enough to be the second power option to the world. But he was wrong. Today they cant produce even civil aircraft MC-21-300 as respected rate. Because they are dependent on lots of sides. If you want to do something on your own you must have enough economy to do it. We need to increase our high tech investments not to cement sector. We have to be more independent economy to tourism and low-level export products.

We have to export the technology, we have to be submarine, not a small attack boat.

İn two years deadline, could you purchase 50 Hurjet? However 50 american fighters both F15 and F16 will be ready to fight if you order today.
I dont think in 10 years Hürjet could be operational. Even though i dont want to mention MMU .
From scratch to mass production and operational using of fighters will last long.
İf you want to accelarete your projects you need İnternational corporations such as f35 joint fighter project.
Although if you want an Air Force without fighters you could go for as your political agenda.

We have to believe and invest in HÜRJET. Otherwise, we will lose more than a chance to develop own fighter. We need to get experience with HÜRJET for MMU. Turkish Aerospace started to HÜRJET project without any order or any auction. They need to get experience for MMU they started from the easy version. We have to support them. If we don't support them today we will not have any MMU tomorrow.

 

[Nein]

You say we are not playing backgammon but you do play it. You don't have enough strategy to increase survivability. I know we all angry with the US but we have to increase our economical independence. If you don't do this step first, you will face the same dilemma with others who invest in some military sectors and lost lots of money and gained less. For example Russia. Putin believed that they will powerful enough to be the second power option to the world. But he was wrong. Today they cant produce even civil aircraft MC-21-300 as respected rate. Because they are dependent on lots of sides. If you want to do something on your own you must have enough economy to do it. We need to increase our high tech investments not to cement sector. We have to be more independent economy to tourism and low-level export products.

We have to export the technology, we have to be submarine, not a small attack boat.



We have to believe and invest in HÜRJET. Otherwise, we will lose more than a chance to develop own fighter. We need to get experience with HÜRJET for MMU. Turkish Aerospace started to HÜRJET project without any order or any auction. They need to get experience for MMU they started from the easy version. We have to support them. If we don't support them today we will not have any MMU tomorrow.

Interesting how the mc 21 uses American engines from Pratt Whitney.

 

[UkroTurk]

You say we are not playing backgammon but you do play it. You don't have enough strategy to increase survivability. I know we all angry with the US but we have to increase our economical independence. If you don't do this step first, you will face the same dilemma with others who invest in some military sectors and lost lots of money and gained less. For example Russia. Putin believed that they will powerful enough to be the second power option to the world. But he was wrong. Today they cant produce even civil aircraft MC-21-300 as respected rate. Because they are dependent on lots of sides. If you want to do something on your own you must have enough economy to do it. We need to increase our high tech investments not to cement sector. We have to be more independent economy to tourism and low-level export products.

We have to export the technology, we have to be submarine, not a small attack boat.



We have to believe and invest in HÜRJET. Otherwise, we will lose more than a chance to develop own fighter. We need to get experience with HÜRJET for MMU. Turkish Aerospace started to HÜRJET project without any order or any auction. They need to get experience for MMU they started from the easy version. We have to support them. If we don't support them today we will not have any MMU tomorrow.

There is nothing against MMU and Hürjet in my words. Neither MMU and nor Hürjet would be harmed from purchasing for short terms as well as from limited production with local participation of american fighters .


Unfortunately most of Turkish members seem to believe in illusion of Türkiye produces F16.
Again unfortunately Türkiye imported all F16s however %80 chassis of some limited fighters were produced in Turkey. Producing a F16 doesnt consist of just a bodywork.
So Having lost most strategic partnership F35 joint fighter, Türkiye should find new ways to increase know-how.
Guys i dont want to repeat banal phrase " we dont even have a jet engine" but it explains the situation.

 

[AerospaceTech]

There is nothing against MMU and Hürjet in my words. Neither MMU and nor Hürjet would be harmed from purchasing for short terms as well as from limited production with local participation of american fighters .

It is harming the spend dollars when you need for your own project. We don't have unlimited budget, then we need to use it very carefully.

Unfortunately most of Turkish members seem to believe in illusion of Türkiye produces F16.
Again unfortunately Türkiye imported all F16s however %80 chassis of some limited fighters were produced in Turkey. Producing a F16 doesnt consist of just a bodywork.
So Having lost most strategic partnership F35 joint fighter, Türkiye should find new ways to increase know-how.
Guys i dont want to repeat banal phrase " we dont even have a jet engine" but it explains the situation.

That's why HÜRJET is so important. Because we need to know. We need know how. If we don't learn today, we will not have enough knowledge tomorrow.

I know what TAI (I mean TUSAŞ and GE/LM partnership) but we also need to believe and support otherwise we can not progress.

 

[UkroTurk]

You sound reasonable but unfortunately you just sound. Your airforce is still based on US spending money.
Sorry for again banal explanation ,your budget is prepared to use all expenses with Syrian refugees ,but your Air force cant fork out 50 air superiority fighters.

Here we aren't solving financial problems of Turkey or distributing national budget. We are choosing a fighter.
However I thought we were a rich country.


Yet there isnt any tangible Hürjet fighter , you have already flourished your Air force with them.
If TurAF doesnt need in 10 and 20 years any replacement of fighter, you shouldnt have written here .
Or You could have just said " there isnt any gap and TurAF wont urge any stopgap fighters". Thats all.

28 votes made EF the first, 26 votes for f15 and variants are suitable for TurAF and finally 22 votes want to continue with F16s.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

You say we are not playing backgammon but you do play it. You don't have enough strategy to increase survivability. I know we all angry with the US but we have to increase our economical independence. If you don't do this step first, you will face the same dilemma with others who invest in some military sectors and lost lots of money and gained less. For example Russia. Putin believed that they will powerful enough to be the second power option to the world. But he was wrong. Today they cant produce even civil aircraft MC-21-300 as respected rate. Because they are dependent on lots of sides. If you want to do something on your own you must have enough economy to do it. We need to increase our high tech investments not to cement sector. We have to be more independent economy to tourism and low-level export products.

Okay, but we cannot become economically independent or militarily self-sufficient by continuing to give most of our hard-earned money to rich US defense corporations. Developing our own indigenous systems is the way to go, no matter what the political costs may be. Otherwise we'll never break our chains free from US' grip. Their business model depends on that. ABD'ye elini veren kolunu kurtaramiyor. For example even Canada, USA's own neighbor, thought the F-35 program was too expensive for too little gain and decided to leave the program.

 

[AerospaceTech]

You sound reasonable but unfortunately you just sound. Your airforce is still based on US spending money.
Sorry for again banal explanation ,your budget is prepared to use all expenses with Syrian refugees ,but your Air force cant fork out 50 air superiority fighters.

Here we aren't solving financial problems of Turkey or distributing national budget. We are choosing a fighter.
However I thought we were a rich country.


Yet there isnt any tangible Hürjet fighter , you have already flourished your Air force with them.
If TurAF doesnt need in 10 and 20 years any replacement of fighter, you shouldnt have written here .
Or You could have just said " there isnt any gap and TurAF wont urge any stopgap fighters". Thats all.

28 votes made EF the first, 26 votes for f15 and variants are suitable for TurAF and finally 22 votes want to continue with F16s.

I said that previously.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/whic...-prefer-for-turaf.660121/page-8#post-12232908

Now, I am discussing a solution for your imaginary problem. We don't know the weather the gap exists or not. But we know some other stuff;
- We can't make any modernisation without permission
- Any new type needs extra investment for training, for infrastructure for ammunition.

You can be in love with F-15, but I don't.

We don't have big budgets, but we have existing projects which need to be fund.
If we today order new F-15 it won't be operational before 2023 or 2024.
If we invest in HÜRJET, we will get it one or two years late but at least we will get more aircraft with less budget loss. Because we are going to make it, not to buy it.

Okay, but we cannot become economically independent or militarily self-sufficient by continuing to give most of our hard-earned money to rich US defense corporations. Developing our own indigenous systems is the way to go, no matter what the political costs may be. Otherwise we'll never break our chains free from US' grip. Their business model depends on that. ABD'ye elini veren kolunu kurtaramiyor. For example even Canada, USA's own neighbor, thought the F-35 program was too expensive for too little gain and decided to leave the program.

We need to wait, we need to invest, we need to produce. Currently out economy doesn't lies on strong heavy industries or high technologies products. We sale t-shirt and marble. These things are not sufficient. For example, we are waiting engine approval for years from the US to export T129 to Pakistan. When TEI will supply an engine for T129 that day we will export more. That day we will have become more strong. But we need to wait for that that.