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Where would the country be today if musharraf had told the usa "no"

Raja420

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Had musharraf decided to fight against America and told them to fuvk off would the Americans wage war against a nuclear Pakistan? Or would they just sit back and put sanctions on Pakistan?
I wish musharraf had told no to America's war on terror.
So many innocent lives were gone and we were on the wrong side of history. If we had fought atleast we would've held our integrity in the Muslim world.

If general zia ul haq was in power I believe he would've went to war against America. I wish I lived in his time he was a True mujahideen.
 
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I agree, he shouldn't have gone liberal but Left, the Faiz Ahmed Faiz 1951 way. :D


Musharraf as President was a confused liberal, who want to be somehow associated with Islamic values too, in superfluous way...but he was pro Pakistan, that makes him acceptable compared to Zardari and Sharifs.

1652167290141.png



Not that owning dogs makes you liberal, secular and pro western and anti Islam(sure it makes you look modern).


Imran Khan also owns many dogs....and cattle and misc. as well. He is a modern Islamist, a fundemantalist in some ways(that he believes in the fundamentals of Islam) so it's not a deplorable term.


1652167551700.png



1652167617786.png
 
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If Mushy was even 1/10th the man Zia Ul Haq was, he probably would have been killed by Amreeki agent(s) in the establishment...

Alas, Mushy was a vapid and vacuous coward whose only interest was his own self preservation...

Single biggest proof of Mushy's treachery was the fact that he didn't overthrow Mian Saanp for agreeing to retreat from our hard earned position in Kargil for which he would have been perfectly justified given the profound harm to national strategic interest but only when Mian Saanp had the telemetry to fire his imbecile behind...
 
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Musharraf as President was a confused liberal, who want to be somehow associated with Islamic values too, in superfluous way...but he was pro Pakistan, that makes him acceptable compared to Zardari and Sharifs.

View attachment 842742


Not that owning dogs makes you liberal, secular and pro western and anti Islam(sure it makes you look modern).

Musharraf is a man whose company I think I will enjoy and suggest to him that dogs are not only unIslamic but also anti-cat and anti-human. I cannot however enjoy the company of mullah @Areesh and his 10 Bully Kutta dogs.

If Mushy was even 1/10th the man Zia Ul Haq was, he probably would have been killed by Amreeki agent(s) in the establishment...

About Zia ul Haq please read my post# 2.
 
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Musharraf could have negotiated better but aligning with US was the best choice then. US of A was then blood thirsty baying for blood and revenge and who knows if Pakistan would not have complied then it would have got attacked instead.
Agreed. He could and should had negotiated better. Had he just prolonged the process by calling it something like discussion and table talk and got a much better solution. He actually made alot of money during that golden period of his.
 
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Shavit 2 Israeli space launch vehicle already could bring a 800kg payload to orbit, its first launch was in 1988.

You really think the Jericho 3 can't hit every point on earth? Besides, Israel has submarines armed with nuclear cruise missiles that could also hit any point that's up to 1500+ km from the shore line.

Educate yourself before spewing bullshit you have no idea about.


You'd get eradicated way before your plan could even hope to work
Israel will get a new asshole ripped in them if they ever dared to fight Pakistan. Even daddy usa wouldnt be able to protect Israel from Pakistan.
 
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There was no way for America to invade Pakistan like they did with Iraq.
No country on this planet would ever launch a full scale invasion of Pakistan. Land invasion of Pakistan is impossible. You would need atleast 1 million soldiers. What country can deploy such a massive army? No one....
 
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No country on this planet would ever launch a full scale invasion of Pakistan. Land invasion of Pakistan is impossible. You would need atleast 1 million soldiers. What country can deploy such a massive army? No one....
It is possible. But maintaining the control would be pointless, just like Afghanistan.

Israel will get a new asshole ripped in them if they ever dared to fight Pakistan. Even daddy usa wouldnt be able to protect Israel from Pakistan.
No one here cares about Pakistan lol
 
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It is possible. But maintaining the control would be pointless, just like Afghanistan.


No one here cares about Pakistan lol
You care as you are on a Pakistani forum. Your people pee their pants when they think of the Pakistani nukes as you know they are reserved for Israel and India.

And where would America invade from? All bases in middle east and Israel would be destroyed. We have the technology to nuke aircraft carriers so once again where would Americans invade from?
 
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Had musharraf decided to fight against America and told them to fuvk off would the Americans wage war against a nuclear Pakistan? Or would they just sit back and put sanctions on Pakistan?
I wish musharraf had told no to America's war on terror.
So many innocent lives were gone and we were on the wrong side of history. If we had fought atleast we would've held our integrity in the Muslim world.

If general zia ul haq was in power I believe he would've went to war against America. I wish I lived in his time he was a True mujahideen.
Pakistan doesnt have any animosity with the US, Musharaf had a third option to stay neutral but the higher ups saw an opportunity for US dollars/aid which for which only a fraction of the promised amount received so went beyond what was being asked to do.

We could have just allowed US to have logistics through Pakistan but nothing else, no bases for attacks and would have saved our own people from the spillover..
 
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Hindsight is 20/20.

Musharraf had no way out. The US was a raging bull looking for blood.

Only qualm I had was Musharraf should have seeked consensus within the army, politicians etc before going ahead. He could have extracted a better deal. $500 billion upfront. And should have told US to liberate J&K. 😂

And the fence should have been built long time ago. Giving bases to US should not have been done. An air corridor should have been enough.
 
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It is possible. But maintaining the control would be pointless, just like Afghanistan.
Nope. The only countries that can invade is China and USA. Both of them are superpowers. Meanwhile Israel can be easily invaded by..... Wait for it.... Egypt! A regional power :omghaha:

It is possible. But maintaining the control would be pointless, just like Afghanistan.


No one here cares about Pakistan lol
Yet you are on a Pakistani forum. Never seen a Pakistani on a israeli forum.
 
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The difference was their ruler was a tyrant and the army had many differences regarding religion in their ranks. Pakistanis would've been on the same page and would've repelled the American forces.

There was no way for America to invade Pakistan like they did with Iraq.

Yes, Saddam Hussein was a tyrant but his power was contingent upon military muscle.


Iraqi armed forces were professional and their commanders were obedient to Saddam Hussein:

- Saddam ordered them to invade Kuwait and they completed this mission in a few hours in 1990 without question.
- Saddam ordered them to stay put in Kuwait when US/NATO arrived in Saudi Arabia (Operation Desert Shield), and they remained in their positions without question.
- Saddam ordered them to strike at Israel during war with US/NATO (Operation Desert Storm) in 1991, and they did it without question.
- Saddam ordered a part of his forces to invade Khafji in Saudi Arabia during during war with US/NATO (Operation Desert Storm) in 1991, and they did it without question.
- Iraqi Republican Guards fought till the end in battles of Wadi al-Batin and Madinah ridge in fact.


US/NATO defeated Iraq in the war (and liberated Kuwait by extension) through combination of a well-planned military operation involving a deception plan and tactics and technological supremacy with surprises in the mix.


I agree with what you're saying about looking at the bigger picture but it boils my blood that the USA was able to arm twist our nation into their war.

When the mongols messenger went to the mamluks to ask them to surrender their city the mamluks chopped of their heads in reply even though the mongols were a super power at that time. In the end it was the mamluks who defeated the mongols and it is Allah who gives victories.

Your feelings are understood and appreciated but the lesson is to not allow non-state-actors (NSA) like Al-Qaeda Network to flourish in our region. These type of organizations have no sense of nationhood and its priorities. Al-Qaeda Network's politics and actions brought war and misery to our region. Those who want to live peacefully - can be forgiven.

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Mongols were most potent in combat situations under Genghis Khan. Their ability to fight a war varied across regions subject to availability of leadership, resources and circumstances. They had subjugated multiple civilizations by the time they reached Egypt in 1260.

Hulagu Khan - the man credited for defeating Abbasid Caliphate across Iraq, Syria and Palestine - had to return to Mongolia due to death of Möngke Khan and could not partake in war with Mamluks in Egypt.

The death of the Great Khan

However, the power dynamic changed when the Great Khan died in an expedition to China, and Hulagu had to return back home to decide who would be the next Great Khan. He left only a small force behind to keep the presence of the Mongols in the area. Seeing the opportunity, Qutuz the Mamluk invaded Palestine and allied with a fellow Mamluk leader, Baibars, to defend Islam and free the Mongol occupied Damascus and most of Bilad al-sham.

Seeing the now growing military strength of the Mamluks, the Mongols tried to bring forth a Franco-Mongol alliance but failed to do so since Pope Alexander IV forbade it. Alternatively, although there was a long-standing Christians against Muslims feud between the Mamluks and the Franks, the Franks understood that the Mongolian hordes would spare none, and thus they allowed the Mamluk armies to pass through their lands. When news came that the Mongols had crossed the Jordan river, Qutuz headed towards Ain Jalut in the Jezreel Valley to meet them.



Political circumstances of the time made it possible for Mamluks to defeat a Mongolian force led by Kitbuga Noyan in the Battle of Ain Jalut.

Allah Almighty helps the deserving in mysterious ways of-course.

But it is important to understand events correctly and read situations correctly. Allah Almighty have given all humans an excellent brain to use.

WE fight when it is absolutely necessary but WE should choose our battles wisely when WE have options.

US is a bully and a bully is a coward, this is proven looking at the US history of defeats in Vietnam, Venezuela, Cuba, Aghanistan recently and Iran.

US did a regime change in Iran throwing Mussadiq govt. and brought in a US puppet of Shah Iran, the result was a Islamic revolution under Khomenei and many times more adverse Islamic government in Iran vehemently against America.

Here in Pakistan too almost all the 220 million people are now against the US, except for some paid so called liberal journalists and NGO's and of course the current PDM government. So its foolish of US to do the regime change and let all the Pak nation goes against the US.

This happened in Aghanistan as well...US never learns.

As pointed out above, it is important to understand events correctly and read situations correctly.

US never fought a war with Venezuela, Cuba and Iran respectively. You are attributing imaginary defeats to US in these countries. US harmed these countries in other ways, however.

Venezuela = significant economic problems

Nicolas Maduro is trying to make amends with US without making much noise. The ongoing Russia - Ukraine War is creating an opportunity for Venezuela to export oil to affected countries. Economic recovery is looking possible.

Cuba = disarmed in 1962

Insignificant to US anyways.

Iran = economic problems and lack of breakthrough in nuclear weapons program due to sabotage

Iran was in the process of making amends with US in times of Obama administration but Trump administration rejected JCPOA. Iran is now having talks with US and Europe to renegotiate JCPOA.

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Afghanistan in retrospective

War in Afghanistan was about dismantling Al-Qaeda Network in large part and this mission was virtually concluded by assassinating Hamza Bin Laden in 2019.

Pakistan also desired leverage in Afghanistan due to which it prevented extinction of Afghan Taliban.

But problems for Pakistan are far from over:


Afghan Taliban are just like other Afghans; take advantage of Pakistan's support when in difficult situation but disregard Pakistan's concerns when in power.

Pakistan could not capitalize on American presence in Afghanistan to its advantage and secure a better solution for itself. Pakistan had leverage in this matter but achieved subpar results in the end.

Afghanistan = significant economic problems and headache for Pakistan

There is nothing to celebrate in regards to alleged American defeat in Afghanistan. They handed over Afghanistan to Afghan Taliban as per Pakistan's wishes after getting rid of those who were deemed responsible for 9/11.

They might be laughing at Pakistan from a distance now.

-----

Vietnam War in retrospective

US fought a war in Vietnam in the 1960s when its military technologies were nothing like in 1991 (vs. Iraq) and beyond. Vietcong and American troops could not defeat each other due to technological limitations and geographical factors and were locked in a stalemate.

Technological limitations

For perspective; USAF could NOT knock out a Vietnamese bridge (Dragon's Jaw) with "standard munitions" for a long time in Vietnam:

"At the outset of the Vietnam War, the US Joint Chiefs of Staff rated the Dragon’s Jaw as No. 14 on the list of the most important targets in North Vietnam. It carried the only railroad in the North Vietnamese panhandle and was a key link in the supply route supporting the war in the south. When the Rolling Thunder air campaign began in 1965, the bridge was selected for early attack.

On April 3, 1965, Lt. Col. Robinson Risner led a strike force of almost 80 aircraft from bases in Vietnam and Thailand against the Dragon’s Jaw. The actual attack was conducted by 31 F-105s from Korat Air Base in Thailand, half of them carrying Bullpup missiles and half with 750-pound general-purpose bombs.

Planners had expected the attack to drop the bridge. However, neither the missiles nor the bombs caused any appreciable damage. One pilot said the Bullpups, which had lightweight 250-pound warheads, simply “bounced off” the target.

The next day, Risner led a restrike by 46 F-105s. This time, they left the Bullpups at home and hit the bridge with some 300 bombs, but the results were no better than before. Two further strikes in May closed the bridge briefly for repairs. Large mines, dropped upriver by transport aircraft, floated into the bridge abutments but they had little effect.

By 1972, the Air Force and the Navy had sent 871 sorties against the Dragon’s Jaw, losing 11 aircraft but failing to knock out the bridge.



Smart Bombs were first produced in 1972 but Nixon administration had withdrawn American troops from Vietnam by the time. The war was all but over by the time. USAF had the opportunity to test its smart bombs on the Vietnamese bridge (Dragon's Jaw) nevertheless:

The F-4s hit the bridge with 26 laser-guided bombs, several of them heavy 3,000-pounders, and did what all of the previous attacks had not been able to do. According to an Air Force review of the action, “The western span of the bridge had been knocked completely off its 40 foot thick concrete abutment and the bridge superstructure was so critically disfigured and twisted that rail traffic would come to a standstill for at least several months.”


The mighty bridge collapsed in a matter of minutes.


Geographical factors

Topographic-map-of-Vietnam.png

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Topographic-map-of-Vietnam_fig1_233808418

dn11483-1_550.jpg

Source: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11483-coastal-living-a-growing-global-threat/

Vietnamese geography prevents mechanized thrusts in numerous sectors of the country. USA had NO choice but to use helicopters to insert troops in such sectors to confront Vietcong forces and/or to conduct bombing runs in numerous sectors to soften Vietcong infrastructure. American troops could win battles but gains on the ground remained limited.

Locked in a stalemate

Battle of la Drang = Indecisive
Battle of Khe Sanh = Indecisive
Vietcong's Tet offensive = US-led forces repel this attack (victory)
Operation Apache Snow including the battle of Hamburger hill = US-led forces secure thung lũng A Sầu region (victory) but are withdrawn due to political reasons.

---

Emphasis mine. US/NATO are well-equipped to defeat Vietnam in a war in the present. But they have made amends by now.

-----

Your feelings are understood and appreciated but Pakistan has to find a way to work with US irrespective of who is in power. There are significant economic factors on the line and American power continues to increase.

Funny thing is that every country has to at some point.

WE do not have significant oil reserves like Venezuela and Iran at our disposal as a matter of leverage. WE have to develop our industries and increase our exports. US and Europe are valuable markets in this respect.

China does not have much use of our goods - they develop much on their own. They have given CPEC to Pakistan which is a significant gift by any measure. But Pakistan is too big to put all of its eggs in one basket and flourish.

WE can choose to protest American interference in Pakistan's political affairs in person but WE should also question our leaders (and establishment) in this respect - to explain why they are unable to build relations with US. This would be rather interesting twist in this circus.

Remember this proverb: "Taali do haath se bajti hai."
 
Upvote 0
.
Yes, Saddam Hussein was a tyrant but his power was contingent upon military muscle.


Iraqi armed forces were professional and their commanders were obedient to Saddam Hussein:

- Saddam ordered them to invade Kuwait and they completed this mission in a few hours in 1990 without question.
- Saddam ordered them to stay put in Kuwait when US/NATO arrived in Saudi Arabia (Operation Desert Shield), and they remained in their positions without question.
- Saddam ordered them to strike at Israel during war with US/NATO (Operation Desert Storm) in 1991, and they did it without question.
- Saddam ordered a part of his forces to invade Khafji in Saudi Arabia during during war with US/NATO (Operation Desert Storm) in 1991, and they did it without question.
- Iraqi Republican Guards fought till the end in battles of Wadi al-Batin and Madinah ridge in fact.


US/NATO defeated Iraq in the war (and liberated Kuwait by extension) through combination of a well-planned military operation involving a deception plan and tactics and technological supremacy with surprises in the mix.




Your feelings are understood and appreciated but the lesson is to not allow non-state-actors (NSA) like Al-Qaeda Network to flourish in our region. These type of organizations have no sense of nationhood and its priorities. Al-Qaeda Network's politics and actions brought war and misery to our region. Those who want to live peacefully - can be forgiven.

----

Mongols were most potent in combat situations under Genghis Khan. Their ability to fight a war varied across regions subject to availability of leadership, resources and circumstances. They had subjugated multiple civilizations by the time they reached Egypt in 1260.

Hulagu Khan - the man credited for defeating Abbasid Caliphate across Iraq, Syria and Palestine - had to return to Mongolia due to death of Kublai Khan and could not partake in war with Mamluks in Egypt.

The death of the Great Khan

However, the power dynamic changed when the Great Khan died in an expedition to China, and Hulagu had to return back home to decide who would be the next Great Khan. He left only a small force behind to keep the presence of the Mongols in the area. Seeing the opportunity, Qutuz the Mamluk invaded Palestine and allied with a fellow Mamluk leader, Baibars, to defend Islam and free the Mongol occupied Damascus and most of Bilad al-sham.

Seeing the now growing military strength of the Mamluks, the Mongols tried to bring forth a Franco-Mongol alliance but failed to do so since Pope Alexander IV forbade it. Alternatively, although there was a long-standing Christians against Muslims feud between the Mamluks and the Franks, the Franks understood that the Mongolian hordes would spare none, and thus they allowed the Mamluk armies to pass through their lands. When news came that the Mongols had crossed the Jordan river, Qutuz headed towards Ain Jalut in the Jezreel Valley to meet them.



Political circumstances of the time made it possible for Mamluks to defeat a Mongolian force led by Kitbuga Noyan in the Battle of Ain Jalut.

Allah Almighty helps the deserving in mysterious ways of-course.

But it is important to understand events correctly and read situations correctly. Allah Almighty have given all humans an excellent brain to use.

WE fight when it is absolutely necessary but WE should choose our battles wisely when WE have options.



As pointed out above, it is important to understand events correctly and read situations correctly.

US never fought a war with Venezuela, Cuba and Iran respectively. You are attributing imaginary defeats to US in these countries. US harmed these countries in other ways, however.

Venezuela = significant economic problems

Nicolas Maduro is trying to make amends with US without making much noise. The ongoing Russia - Ukraine War is creating an opportunity for Venezuela to export oil to affected countries. Economic recovery is looking possible.

Cuba = disarmed in 1962

Insignificant to US anyways.

Iran = economic problems and lack of breakthrough in nuclear weapons program due to sabotage

Iran was in the process of making amends with US in times of Obama administration but Trump administration rejected JCPOA. Iran is now having talks with US and Europe to renegotiate JCPOA.

-----

Afghanistan in retrospective

War in Afghanistan was about dismantling Al-Qaeda Network in large part and this mission was virtually concluded by assassinating Hamza Bin Laden in 2019.

Pakistan also desired leverage in Afghanistan due to which it prevented extinction of Afghan Taliban.

But problems for Pakistan are far from over:


Afghan Taliban are just like other Afghans; take advantage of Pakistan's support when in difficult situation but disregard Pakistan's concerns when in power.

Pakistan could not capitalize on American presence in Afghanistan to its advantage and secure a better solution for itself. Pakistan had leverage in this matter but achieved subpar results in the end.

Afghanistan = significant economic problems and headache for Pakistan

There is nothing to celebrate in regards to alleged American defeat in Afghanistan. They handed over Afghanistan to Afghan Taliban as per Pakistan's wishes after getting rid of those who were deemed responsible for 9/11.

They might be laughing at Pakistan from a distance now.

-----

Vietnam War in retrospective

US fought a war in Vietnam in the 1960s when its military technologies were nothing like in 1991 (vs. Iraq) and beyond. Vietcong and American troops could not defeat each other due to technological limitations and geographical factors and were locked in a stalemate.

Technological limitations

For perspective; USAF could NOT knock out a Vietnamese bridge (Dragon's Jaw) with "standard munitions" for a long time in Vietnam:

"At the outset of the Vietnam War, the US Joint Chiefs of Staff rated the Dragon’s Jaw as No. 14 on the list of the most important targets in North Vietnam. It carried the only railroad in the North Vietnamese panhandle and was a key link in the supply route supporting the war in the south. When the Rolling Thunder air campaign began in 1965, the bridge was selected for early attack.

On April 3, 1965, Lt. Col. Robinson Risner led a strike force of almost 80 aircraft from bases in Vietnam and Thailand against the Dragon’s Jaw. The actual attack was conducted by 31 F-105s from Korat Air Base in Thailand, half of them carrying Bullpup missiles and half with 750-pound general-purpose bombs.

Planners had expected the attack to drop the bridge. However, neither the missiles nor the bombs caused any appreciable damage. One pilot said the Bullpups, which had lightweight 250-pound warheads, simply “bounced off” the target.

The next day, Risner led a restrike by 46 F-105s. This time, they left the Bullpups at home and hit the bridge with some 300 bombs, but the results were no better than before. Two further strikes in May closed the bridge briefly for repairs. Large mines, dropped upriver by transport aircraft, floated into the bridge abutments but they had little effect.

By 1972, the Air Force and the Navy had sent 871 sorties against the Dragon’s Jaw, losing 11 aircraft but failing to knock out the bridge.



Smart Bombs were first produced in 1972 but Nixon administration had withdrawn American troops from Vietnam by the time. The war was all but over by the time. USAF had the opportunity to test its smart bombs on the Vietnamese bridge (Dragon's Jaw) nevertheless:

The F-4s hit the bridge with 26 laser-guided bombs, several of them heavy 3,000-pounders, and did what all of the previous attacks had not been able to do. According to an Air Force review of the action, “The western span of the bridge had been knocked completely off its 40 foot thick concrete abutment and the bridge superstructure was so critically disfigured and twisted that rail traffic would come to a standstill for at least several months.”


The mighty bridge collapsed in a matter of minutes.


Geographical factors

Topographic-map-of-Vietnam.png

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Topographic-map-of-Vietnam_fig1_233808418

dn11483-1_550.jpg

Source: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11483-coastal-living-a-growing-global-threat/

Vietnamese geography prevents mechanized thrusts in numerous sectors of the country. USA had NO choice but to use helicopters to insert troops in such sectors to confront Vietcong forces and/or to conduct bombing runs in numerous sectors to soften Vietcong infrastructure. American troops could win battles but gains on the ground remained limited.

Locked in a stalemate

Battle of la Drang = Indecisive
Battle of Khe Sanh = Indecisive
Vietcong's Tet offensive = US-led forces repel this attack (victory)
Operation Apache Snow including the battle of Hamburger hill = US-led forces secure thung lũng A Sầu region (victory) but are withdrawn due to political reasons.

---

Emphasis mine. US/NATO are well-equipped to defeat Vietnam in a war in the present. But they have made amends by now.

-----

Your feelings are understood and appreciated but Pakistan has to find a way to work with US irrespective of who is in power. There are significant economic factors on the line and American power continues to increase.

Funny thing is that every country has to at some point.

WE do not have significant oil reserves like Venezuela and Iran at our disposal as a matter of leverage. WE have to develop our industries and increase our exports. US and Europe are valuable markets in this respect.

China does not have much use of our goods - they develop much on their own. They have given CPEC to Pakistan which is a significant gift by any measure. But Pakistan is too big to put all of its eggs in one basket and flourish.

WE can choose to protest American interference in Pakistan's political affairs in person but WE should also question our leaders (and establishment) in this respect - to explain why they are unable to build relations with US. This would be rather interesting twist in this circus.

Remember this proverb: "Taali do haath se bajti hai."
Good read. Thanks.

What if usa imposed a war on Pakistan today How would Pakistan fare in that scenario?
 
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