Where does the Egyptian military get its credibility from?

[Frogman]

I'm not trolling. Let me clarify. It's my opinion about my judgement of the Egyptian army. But the failures of the Army are facts.

Respond to my question then. If I'm wrong, tell me. I'll listen, trust me

This is a story that spans more than six decades with a hell of a lot of events.

Ill put it this way, through thick and thin the Egyptian military plucked on through embarrassing defeat and ridicule within Egypt and outside of it, however, the bond it created with the Egyptian people during the triparthide aggression was never lost (even after 67) and that is what spurred it to reinvent itself and succeed during the war of attrition and 1973. To many people the military remains an integral part of Egyptian nationalism as a result of the trails and tribulations it has been through and the fact that many in Egypt have lost fathers, sons and brothers during these wars.

But here's why Turks and Egyptians are different.

It isn't the Turkish militaries job to "protect" Turkey from moderate Islamists. What you call decapitating is just how things should be. I was very angry about the Ergenekon trials and the jailings but civilian-led militaries are the right way to go. It's just our trial was politically motivated, but thats a whole other topic.
@hinduguy, you're right I should have been more respectful. But it's a topic that I'm very aggravated about and Egyptians have done nothing but insult Turkey for what? Saying the coup was a coup? For supporting democracy?

Condemning the coup is fine, supporting democracy is fine. What made Egyptians angry is when Erdogan said that Mohammed Morsi remained the legitimate president of Egypt. Now to an already politically xenophobic country that is seen as a grave interference in Egyptian matters.

 

[TheThreePashas]

This is a story that spans more than six decades with a hell of a lot of events.

Ill put it this way, through thick and thin the Egyptian military plucked on through embarrassing defeat and ridicule within Egypt and outside of it, however, the bond it created with the Egyptian people during the triparthide aggression was never lost (even after 67) and that is what spurred it to reinvent itself and succeed during the war of attrition and 1973. To many people the military remains an integral part of Egyptian nationalism as a result of the trails and tribulations it has been through and the fact that many in Egypt have lost fathers, sons and brothers during these wars.



Condemning the coup is fine, supporting democracy is fine. What made Egyptians angry is when Erdogan said that Mohammed Morsi remained the legitimate president of Egypt. Now to an already politically xenophobic country that is seen as a grave interference in Egyptian matters.

First off, thanks for being mature and not deciding to fill this threat with insults, as you easily could have and nobody wouldve blamed you.

So you're saying that Egyptians don't respect the military, moreso it's like "Hey, that our people, they just have guns." That's pretty similar in Turkey I guess, the military especially when you have conscription IS just an extension of the people.

My problem with that though is this. The Muslim Brotherhood, for better or worse, is your people. Mohammed Morsi is your people, he's an Egyptian. ElBaradei is an Egyptian. Tutankhamun was Egyptian too. Why the military? What makes them specially then. You should trust your beloved people in all organizations, not just the military. There may be a bond between people and Generals, but it's shown time and time-again that it doesn't work. Military rule does not work. I'm Turkish. If a Turkish man is telling you military rule doesn't work, trust him

In legal terms, Morsi still is the legitimate president. The situation on the ground may be different, obviously. The coup, no matter if you call it a coup, support or condemn, will always be illegitimate until there are new elections.

 

[Frogman]

So you're saying that Egyptians don't respect the military, moreso it's like "Hey, that our people, they just have guns." That's pretty similar in Turkey I guess, the military especially when you have conscription IS just an extension of the people.

Yeah pretty much, its pretty much a symbol of national unity as a result of the conscription policy. Even though it segregated Islamists but that's because the MB hadn't renounced violence yet and lead the assassination of Sadat.

Why the military? What makes them specially then

Its just special. No one can really put their finger on why it has so much support even after it commits despicable acts etc.

There may be a bond between people and Generals, but it's shown time and time-again that it doesn't work. Military rule does not work. I'm Turkish. If a Turkish man is telling you military rule doesn't work, trust him

We know it doesn't work. One thing that ticks me off a bit is when people from other nations lecture Egyptians about military coups as if we didn't have our own fair share of them. We had one in 1952 and then Nasser ousted Naquib and then Tantawi ousted Mubarak and now Sisi has ousted Morsi. The military must come under civilian oversight and relinquish its political and economic powers or the situation in Egypt will only get worse.

In legal terms, Morsi still is the legitimate president. The situation on the ground may be different, obviously. The coup, no matter if you call it a coup, support or condemn, will always be illegitimate until there are new elections.

Election or no election, Morsi was the illegitimate president of Egypt since November as a result of his illegal constitutional decree which granted him near absolute power and immunity from prosecution from all state institutions. He's gone legally or illegally doesn't really matter anymore and its only Erdogan that's ticking Egyptians off because of his idiotic statements.

 

[TheThreePashas]

Yeah pretty much, its pretty much a symbol of national unity as a result of the conscription policy. Even though it segregated Islamists but that's because the MB hadn't renounced violence yet and lead the assassination of Sadat.

Its just special. No one can really put their finger on why it has so much support even after it commits despicable acts etc.


We know it doesn't work. One thing that ticks me off a bit is when people from other nations lecture Egyptians about military coups as if we didn't have our own fair share of them. We had one in 1952 and then Nasser ousted Naquib and then Tantawi ousted Mubarak and now Sisi has ousted Morsi. The military must come under civilian oversight and relinquish its political and economic powers or the situation in Egypt will only get worse.

Election or no election, Morsi was the illegitimate president of Egypt since November as a result of his illegal constitutional decree which granted him near absolute power and immunity from prosecution from all state institutions. He's gone legally or illegally doesn't really matter anymore and its only Erdogan that's ticking Egyptians off because of his idiotic statements.

You've just uttered the golden words everyone needs to understand to get Egypt on track. He's gone legally or illegally, it doesn't matter anymore.

MB supporters need to give up, he's gone. Yes, the Turkish government needs to give up, he's gone.

Now is there, similar in Turkey, a concept of deep-state security institutions? I mean people are also very aware that the Egyptian military has huge economic interests around the country. It's pretty strange that that is ignored and forgiven..

 

[Frogman]

You've just uttered the golden words everyone needs to understand to get Egypt on track. He's gone legally or illegally, it doesn't matter anymore.

MB supporters need to give up, he's gone. Yes, the Turkish government needs to give up, he's gone.

Now is there, similar in Turkey, a concept of deep-state security institutions? I mean people are also very aware that the Egyptian military has huge economic interests around the country. It's pretty strange that that is ignored and forgiven..

The MB and its supporters have latched onto the deep state as an excuse for their own failures and incompetence. Egypt does have a deep state but its power is greatly exaggerated. The deep state itself was willing to work with the new regime but after numerous insults by the MB to basically all state institutions and the targeting of the judiciary the deep state began to work against the regime but it wasn't to a massive degree. Morsi had a chance to reform institutions but he didn't. The deep state is nothing but an excuse for those who were out of their depth.

 

[TheThreePashas]

The MB and its supporters have latched onto the deep state as an excuse for their own failures and incompetence. Egypt does have a deep state but its power is greatly exaggerated. The deep state itself was willing to work with the new regime but after numerous insults by the MB to basically all state institutions and the targeting of the judiciary the deep state began to work against the regime but it wasn't to a massive degree. Morsi had a chance to reform institutions but he didn't. The deep state is nothing but an excuse for those who were out of their depth.

Hmm. Is it possible though that Morsi was unable to accomplish anything because the full reins of power were never really handed over? I don't really have much to support it but whenever I would read about Egypt it always seemed like the government was working in restraint and didn't wield enough power to do anything.

Would it be unfair to say that while I don't even like Morsi myself, it looks like he was allowed to and secretly pushed to fail by the military who stepped aside for a little while, almost knowing he would fall and this would happen?

 

[agentny17]

Egyptians have been viewing their military with such high regard since the First Egyptian-Ottoman War Egyptian and most important the Second Egyptian–Ottoman War Egyptian

 

[Frogman]

Hmm. Is it possible though that Morsi was unable to accomplish anything because the full reins of power were never really handed over?

Initially he had all the keys, levels even the bells and whistles. But he continuously insulted and targeted state institutions and that ultimately lead to his power being weakened. Ill give an example, a law was going to be passed that sent every single judge over the age of 60 into early retirement, now this was proposed in order to remove remnants of the old regime, however, its clear to everyone that its an idiotic idea and it completely alienated the judiciary (along with appointing a chief prosecutor which can only be appointed by the judiciary).

I don't really have much to support it but whenever I would read about Egypt it always seemed like the government was working in restraint and didn't wield enough power to do anything.

Ministers who had no business being in a cabinet were given ministires they couldnt handle, couple that with a security vacuum and you have already chronic problems being handled by idiots who made acute problems and no security.

Would it be unfair to say that while I don't even like Morsi myself, it looks like he was allowed to and secretly pushed to fail by the military who stepped aside for a little while, almost knowing he would fall and this would happen?

It wouldn't. Morsi was already falling, all the military had to do was out a sword on the spot he was going to land.

 

[TheThreePashas]

Egyptians have been viewing their military with such high regard since the First Egyptian-Ottoman War Egyptian and most important the Second Egyptian–Ottoman War Egyptian

Oh I'm talking strictly post-colonial Egypt. The Albanian leader of the time, Mehmet Ali Paşa, and the military which was probably disbanded and reformed is of little relevance now.

Initially he had all the keys, levels even the bells and whistles. But he continuously insulted and targeted state institutions and that ultimately lead to his power being weakened. Ill give an example, a law was going to be passed that sent every single judge over the age of 60 into early retirement, now this was proposed in order to remove remnants of the old regime, however, its clear to everyone that its an idiotic idea and it completely alienated the judiciary (along with appointing a chief prosecutor which can only be appointed by the judiciary).



Ministers who had no business being in a cabinet were given ministires they couldnt handle, couple that with a security vacuum and you have already chronic problems being handled by idiots who made acute problems and no security.



It wouldn't. Morsi was already falling, all the military had to do was out a sword on the spot he was going to land.

Surely he did do some very stupid things, like the judicial "reform" you speak of.

By the military letting him fall though, I'm not talking about the coup. I think thats what you mean, because you say he was already falling.


What I'm saying is a borderline conspiracy, I'll admit that. But maybe when Morsi was elected and pushed Tantawi aside, the military and the institutions it holds sway over decided that without their active support he would fail and they could use him to make an example to deter future Brotherhood leadership. All they had to do was wait a year and their only opposition destroyed itself and we're at square 1.

 

[Frogman]

By the military letting him fall though, I'm not talking about the coup. I think thats what you mean, because you say he was already falling.

The military at times tried to prevent him falling. For the six months before the coup the military tried to hold national reconciliation talks between Morsi and the opposition (the military would only host the meeting). Every single call was ignored by the presidency as Morsi was convinced he had majority support. The military could have ousted him any time since last November but it only chose to do so when Morsi had basically finished himself off.

What I'm saying is a borderline conspiracy, I'll admit that. But maybe when Morsi was elected and pushed Tantawi aside, the military and the institutions it holds sway over decided that without their active support he would fail and they could use him to make an example to deter future Brotherhood leadership. All they had to do was wait a year and their only opposition destroyed itself and we're at square 1.

Tantawi wasn't pushed aside by Morsi but by the military itself (as was the majority of the top brass) paving the way for Sisi who was already tipped to be the next commander. The military is very much like America, whoever can enure its interests it will strike a deal with (as it did with the MB pre elections). The military has no interest in ideology only results and interests. Morsi nearly took us to war twice with his stupidity, one with Ethiopa (seriously who has a live national security meeting?) and one with the Syrian regime. Near the end he was just too stupid and too incompetent for the military to support.

 

[TheThreePashas]

Tantawi wasn't pushed aside by Morsi but by the military itself (as was the majority of the top brass) paving the way for Sisi who was already tipped to be the next commander. The military is very much like America, whoever can enure its interests it will strike a deal with (as it did with the MB pre elections). The military has no interest in ideology only results and interests. Morsi nearly took us to war twice with his stupidity, one with Ethiopa (seriously who has a live national security meeting?) and one with the Syrian regime. Near the end he was just too stupid and too incompetent for the military to support.

Ah I didn't know that. Western media made it look like Morsi sent that dusty old bucket Tantawi packing himself and that he hand-picked Sisi because he was more reserved. So much for how that worked out lol..


By the way. Does the military ruling the country make it more or less likely for Egypt to attack Ethiopia? Or is it just very unlikely in general... It would be a good confidence booster for the Air Force

 

[Frogman]

Ah I didn't know that. Western media made it look like Morsi sent that dusty old bucket Tantawi packing himself and that he hand-picked Sisi because he was more reserved. So much for how that worked out lol..

Tantawi and much of the top brass were seen to be stifling progress and modernization of the Egyptian military by many young officers and some senior commanders. The decision to relieve them (with full honors of course) was only accelerated after the tragic events which lead to the death of 16 Egyptian conscripts during Ramadan. Sisi is deeply religious and is seen by some as an Islamist, funny how things turn out.

By the way. Does the military ruling the country make it more or less likely for Egypt to attack Ethiopia? Or is it just very unlikely in general... It would be a good confidence booster for the Air Force

Unlilkely, unless there's a drastic change in policy by the Ethiopians. The element of surprise is gone due to Morsi anyway