When would Bombs stop exploding?

[mustafa erkan]

Erodgan took Turkey on road to propsperity which Turkey hasn't seen before. Problem in neighbouring countries were not created by Erodgan. People of Syria and Iraq are fed up of their Governments and want change and most who stood up are Sunnis they were supported by Sunni Governments and Iran jumped in to save Shia regimes which led to bloody sectarian conflict. If some think Turkey can choose to remain neutral than they are way to naive.

totaly agree.
If we wait and do nothing they will not only divide Turkey also raise up the sunni vs shia conflict which ends with regional war.

 

[Neptune]

Few members have answered these opinions. But in most simple terms, as for the security bureaucracy and policy making against PKK, if it wasn't AKP we wouldn't be at this point, in case we were; our actions would be no different than what we do today the only difference would be that we were either be striking ISIS as we do to PKK or we would have sealed the border and didn't interfere at Iraq and Syria at all. Note that, Turkish artillery and armor just have bombed thr sh.it out of the hometown of Istanbul bomber who's a Syrian national. 200+ ISIS militants are reported to have been killed.

Simply, if we don't fight PKK, they'll declare independence inside Turkish soils and at this point everyone in Turkey knows that either a civil war on Kurds will break or the army will crush them with all its might. Our economy and wellbeing would be fuvcked up either way in these circumstances. We can't risk both of these situations. Not only us the entire World can't also risk to have another ME country going to war.

 

[MastanKhan]

My worse nightmare is coming true. I said it before and I say it now that Turkey is on its way to becoming the Pakistan of the Middle east. This is a sentiment that props up in our talkshows that are discussing Middle east and its impact on Pakistan. Some might have heard that from Dr Shahid Masood too.


When the bombs started exploding in the Turkish cities it was a shocker for the world at first. Getting prime time and interruption but sadly and slowly for the rest of the world, these news are being deferred now as rest of the world is becoming accustomed to these news and they get a passing reference or none at all just like the bombings and shootings in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan & Nigeria etc.


So how does Erdogan respond?

• He cracks down on journalists and politicians who don’t toe his line
• Academics, politicians and journalists face treason charges who criticise government policies
• Ambushes and shoots down Russian jet
• Forcefully sends Turkish troops to Iraq that are not welcome
• Cracks down on Kurdish population
• Bombs the Kurdish forces that kept Daesh at bay and gave them a fight
• Remains the biggest outlet of Daesh oil to the international market
• Remains the biggest transit for jihadi fighters and jihadi brides making their way to Daesh territories.

What is debateable is ;

Whether the policies of its current leader the cause and complicit in its current state?

Or is it a victim of uncontrolled circumstances and tragedies that were not aniticpated?


List below

How many sorties, raids Turkey has taken directly against Daesh?
Vs how many it has conducted against those that are fighting Daesh?


If its too politically charged and black and white then debate this
Are the current terror attacks the direct result of its proximity to Iraq & Syria? (that’s the easy one).

Are they the direct result of how Erdogan offered his country to the same players Zia offered in the 80s? (this is contentious).

What should Erdogan do differently to put a stop on these terror attacks?


I am tagging few people that have different narrative and take on the current middle eastern crises. And I seek to learn and better educate myself. I have my views, yes, and I base them on some observations and conclusions but I am open for debate and change of mind too. “Assad is evil” and the killer of his own people is very simplistic and half arsed commentary that no self respecting and moderately educated person in international relations should make.. because this sets a very dangerous precedent there are many Arab monarchies that fit the description too so we got to be careful.

Yes I find myself critical of Erdogan's actions within his country & in neighboring counties but I am waiting to see or hear anything that would stop the bombs going off. continuation with the same action plan has not worked.

My apology for Assad is what was wrong re Qadafi is also wrong in his respect (or any other middle eastern regime). World has no right to arm militias to depose the governments because repeatedly it results into a monstrosity like Daesh and innocent people suffer.


@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Horus @Hyperion @cabatli_53 @Syed.Ali.Haider @MilSpec @MastanKhan @Daneshmand

conclusion

I expect the commentators in thread to remain dignified and respectful to each other and offer counter narrative in a civilized manner, for the sake of all those victims in Turkey and elsewhere due to the global wave of terrorism. rest in peace to the innocent dead in Turkey and rest of the world.

Hi,

Irfan,

I stated something similar about 6 months ago and got 2 negative ratings and a ban from the thread by the turk mod----.

These turks do not have the courage to listen to any criticism---good or bad----. Many have had this holier than thou attitude that our's do not stink.

Well now it does----and it is going to stink worst. They had every opportunity to stop this issue in syria by going in and taking out the terrs----.

Oh well---payback is a 'bi-tch---.

I always believe to take charge of he situation when it is starting to build up--- " nip it in the bud " ---- " a stitch in time saves nine " --- " strike when the iron is hot ".

Pakistan and turkey---both thought that they control the beast---I feel bad for my turk brethren----they did not have to go thru this.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Or when some Arabs and their followers like TTP, Boko Haram etc stop blowing themselves up in streets, markets, mosques and every other freaking place around the world? When they stop preaching hate in their schools and mosques? When they educate their society not to join in droves every new fucked up terrorist group that is created? I mean, it requires such an audacity to post something like that.

.

the guy you responded to, belongs to a mindset of people who have no respect for human life. how depraved and disgusting such mindset is that it sees nothing beyond its political and sectarian differences.

making the same mistake over and over again and expecting a different result. thats what is happening in the middle east. you can quote ten more terror organisations that are the result of this mindset but it would be like talking to the brick wall . just goes to show you what kind of people Muhammad PBUH had to deal with and convince throughout his lifetime.

Thanks for the tag, I am not well informed on this area, so won't contribute, but this will be a great opportunity to learn about the region and it's challenges.

regards.

I am no better either. reason to tag you is to get a chance of a neutral take on this crises. everyone else re middle east carries a baggage. I gave a veiled reference to the 80's Zia policy as well so you might see the similarities there.

but thanks for being polite and honest about the subject matter. something that few members here failed to show.

Sir, the problem lies not with Erdogan or with Turkey. The problem lies in how this whole region is misusing religion. I will respond later in detail.

I will await that as a refreshing post which doesnt carry the emotional and politically charged baggage people on either side have upon their shoulders

Photo Feature: Bomb attacks in Turkey since 1982 - LOCAL




Oh please... You cannot possibly force a country to be that reckless to violate Turkey's airspace while bombing Turkmens along the border of Turkey despite Turkey's and its allies' countless warnings of severe consequences if they continue and call it an "ambush". Sputnik much?



Turkish troops were invited by KRG. Since Iraqi army has abandoned a third of their country to IS, by doing so causing massive refugee waves towards the Turkish border, I don't think we need their welcoming. Iraq's puppet regime should maybe focus its attentions on IS instead of Turkey.



Did you know that there are more Kurds in Istanbul than any other city in the WORLD? Yet these crackdowns mostly occur on some neighbourhoods in Southeastern cities of Turkey where PKK terrorist wreak havoc. Does it mean anything to you?



Who is that Kurdish forces exactly? Turkey has been helping Peshmerga which is the primary Kurdish force fighting against IS since the very beginning.

Or are you talking about PKK? Since when fighting against IS for their own fvcked up agenda has made them less of a terrorist organization? Do you consider Taliban as a legitimate force too, because they are fighting against IS as well.



Turkish forces kill nearly 200 ISIS militants in Syria and Iraq. "It was perfect" says Col. Warren



None.

thanks. like I said I am here to learn and change my view if convinced logically.
yours sir is by far the the best Turkish post I have come across for a very long time.

Erodgan took Turkey on road to propsperity which Turkey hasn't seen before. Problem in neighbouring countries were not created by Erodgan. People of Syria and Iraq are fed up of their Governments and want change and most who stood up are Sunnis they were supported by Sunni Governments and Iran jumped in to save Shia regimes which led to bloody sectarian conflict. If some think Turkey can choose to remain neutral than they are way to naive.

brother, the economic prosperity talk is irrelevant here when the bombs are exploding on regular bases. question was if this carnage and suffering of Turkey a result of its government policies and misdirection or is it just a helpless victim of a bigger game where the events are beyond its control? and if so .. what has the government done to fix it?

you gave a brief explanation of Erdogan's actions and its reasons but you didn't answer the main question. how the Turkish people can be saved from this terrorism of Daesh when Turkey continues to serve as Pakistan for Saudis and Americans (who look pretty from distance.. safe and sound).

please forgive me, but I feel really bad for Turkey it feels so similar to Pakistan.give few years,.. the cheering crowd will wash its hands off Turkey and we will get to see articles and talkshows on western media against Turkey just like its the case with Pakistan. I pray it never happens but I need to see some action against the perpetrators.


yes Assad is evil and Iran is bad and shias are misguided .. I hear that response but this has not stopped bombs and shootings in Turkey and Egypt and Iraq and Syria.

I mean come on. Daesh? what a fing joke... if there is honesty and commitment.. can this fake state survive even for days let alone years?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The funny thing over here is that the sons and daughter of invaders have become impotent and eunuchs---these comments are for pakistanis and turks alike---.

Both these nations militaries had invasion in their blood---but when the time came to face the music---both the nations chickened out and the froth fizzled.

 

[Neptune]

My worse nightmare is coming true. I said it before and I say it now that Turkey is on its way to becoming the Pakistan of the Middle east. This is a sentiment that props up in our talkshows that are discussing Middle east and its impact on Pakistan. Some might have heard that from Dr Shahid Masood too.


When the bombs started exploding in the Turkish cities it was a shocker for the world at first. Getting prime time and interruption but sadly and slowly for the rest of the world, these news are being deferred now as rest of the world is becoming accustomed to these news and they get a passing reference or none at all just like the bombings and shootings in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan & Nigeria etc.

And also y'all..

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @jhungary @Horus @Hyperion @cabatli_53 @Syed.Ali.Haider @MilSpec @MastanKhan @Daneshmand @waz @Slav Defence @Technogaianist @Serpentine @Levina

I was gonna meet a friend today morning. So I had to sum up quickly, now I am going into details of what had been happening in Turkey over the last course. So back to topic,

I believe what you said is how the media works, especially on ME, North Africa, Pakistan geographical area. This is a sad truth; these countries aren't Norway and their citizens aren't Norwegian. Ex: what could be the most shocking news bulletin in Norway on a daily basis. Car accident, homicide, some hundred refugees coming through or what?
For Turkey; a guy that threw a grenade on his mother-in-law, a boy that stabbed his friend to death just because he didn't reply back his salute, news of clashes between terrorists just 400 km near the spectators. I believe the the case is the same with Pakistan isn't it? The reasons for this social distress can be tied to many things but they all end up on economic wealth personal mentality.

The entire World knows about the story of Danish police officer playing with the Syrian refugee girl in the middle of a European highway. However, no one yet knows about neither recognizes this, this a everyday story for our National Police and Gendarmerie serving at the Iraqi/Syrian borderline;

So how does Erdogan respond?

• He cracks down on journalists and politicians who don’t toe his line

• Academics, politicians and journalists face treason charges who criticise government policies

• Ambushes and shoots down Russian jet

• Forcefully sends Turkish troops to Iraq that are not welcome

• Cracks down on Kurdish population

• Bombs the Kurdish forces that kept Daesh at bay and gave them a fight

• Remains the biggest outlet of Daesh oil to the international market

• Remains the biggest transit for jihadi fighters and jihadi brides making their way to Daesh territories.

1- The politicians accused are from the Kurdish party. A senator can freely express his anger on military operations. But a member of the Turkish Grand National Assembly is not expected to openly support terrorism, urge people to fight the military and police. That's completely a different case. That's why the Constitutional Court had dismissed their previous party.

2- I agree with you on his crack down on journalists and academics. They expressed their opinions. First of all let me underline that I do not, not a single bit agree with what was written on the declaration they signed. But it was within their right of constitution the freely express themselves.


3- Russian jet shotdown wasn't a set up, neither they were flying in Syrian air space, these radar datas are also confirmed by Pentagon;

BBC edited version;

and the original radar data released by the Turkish General Staff:

Radio comms were released also, the pilot warned him several times. But it is questionable whether this action was justifiable or not. Since there was very warm bilateral relations. The answer lies on two points.

1- Russia had been frequently violating Turkish airspace. It had to be stopped.

2- Russia wasn't fighting ISIS in that location. They were bombing the Turkmens whom are Turkic, basically no different than a Turkish national. Same language, same ethnicity and the same religion. Since the war, Turkey has beem heavily arming Turkmens from day one.

It's just geopolitics and interests.


4- Deployment of a battalion task force in that Iraqi region still sparks mysterious conspiracies. In here too one thing needs to be clarified. Back in Saddam there was an agreement signed between Turkey-Iraq. Simply, this agreement allowed Turkey to legally set up numerous FOBs inside North Iraq as part of the COIN.
In these FOBs. So simply the Turkish Army has been deployed in Iraq at mass numbers in 11 different locations legitimately for 21 years since the agreement was signed.

Bamarni: 1x Mechanized Battalion (MBT, AFV/APC, Infantry)

Kanimasi 1x Battalion (from 2nd Commando Brigade, Bolu HQ), small team of ÖKK

The regions of Erbil, Zaho, Dohuk, Batufa, Süleymaniye and Amediye: Turkish Liaison Teams located, mostly consisting of ÖKK operators (Turkish SF) reported to have a manpower of 130.

One of Turkish FOBs in Iraq. Photos from late 90s I suppose;

5- The Kurds are completely a different story. MLKP, DHKP-C, YPG, YPG-H, PYD, PKK, ISIS have not a single bit of a difference from the Turkish Army's perspective. These are the ones we are fighting against. You see mate, different organizations but only one similarity, armed with AKs to terrorize people on the streets:

6- Those who "keep ISIS at bay" as you said, those that are today the heroes of Western World, yesterday they were killing small children aged as young as 2-3:

This is what I am and will be fighting against till my last breath, last round.

What is debateable is ;
How many sorties, raids Turkey has taken directly against Daesh?
Vs how many it has conducted against those that are fighting Daesh?

Threat assessment/perception is the same but the tactical and strategic priorities are different.

Thousands of foreign jihadists are being deported every year. Perhaps the question you should ask is does the EU intelligence agencies agree to openly cooperate with MİT (Turkish intel) in this regard? No they don't.

Turkey deported 1,100 European jihadists, says daily


Neptune.

 

[HAIDER]

My worse nightmare is coming true. I said it before and I say it now that Turkey is on its way to becoming the Pakistan of the Middle east. This is a sentiment that props up in our talkshows that are discussing Middle east and its impact on Pakistan. Some might have heard that from Dr Shahid Masood too.


When the bombs started exploding in the Turkish cities it was a shocker for the world at first. Getting prime time and interruption but sadly and slowly for the rest of the world, these news are being deferred now as rest of the world is becoming accustomed to these news and they get a passing reference or none at all just like the bombings and shootings in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan & Nigeria etc.


So how does Erdogan respond?

• He cracks down on journalists and politicians who don’t toe his line
• Academics, politicians and journalists face treason charges who criticise government policies
• Ambushes and shoots down Russian jet
• Forcefully sends Turkish troops to Iraq that are not welcome
• Cracks down on Kurdish population
• Bombs the Kurdish forces that kept Daesh at bay and gave them a fight
• Remains the biggest outlet of Daesh oil to the international market
• Remains the biggest transit for jihadi fighters and jihadi brides making their way to Daesh territories.

What is debateable is ;

Whether the policies of its current leader the cause and complicit in its current state?

Or is it a victim of uncontrolled circumstances and tragedies that were not aniticpated?


List below

How many sorties, raids Turkey has taken directly against Daesh?
Vs how many it has conducted against those that are fighting Daesh?


If its too politically charged and black and white then debate this
Are the current terror attacks the direct result of its proximity to Iraq & Syria? (that’s the easy one).

Are they the direct result of how Erdogan offered his country to the same players Zia offered in the 80s? (this is contentious).

What should Erdogan do differently to put a stop on these terror attacks?


I am tagging few people that have different narrative and take on the current middle eastern crises. And I seek to learn and better educate myself. I have my views, yes, and I base them on some observations and conclusions but I am open for debate and change of mind too. “Assad is evil” and the killer of his own people is very simplistic and half arsed commentary that no self respecting and moderately educated person in international relations should make.. because this sets a very dangerous precedent there are many Arab monarchies that fit the description too so we got to be careful.

Yes I find myself critical of Erdogan's actions within his country & in neighboring counties but I am waiting to see or hear anything that would stop the bombs going off. continuation with the same action plan has not worked.

My apology for Assad is what was wrong re Qadafi is also wrong in his respect (or any other middle eastern regime). World has no right to arm militias to depose the governments because repeatedly it results into a monstrosity like Daesh and innocent people suffer.


@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Horus @Hyperion @cabatli_53 @Syed.Ali.Haider @MilSpec @MastanKhan @Daneshmand

conclusion

I expect the commentators in thread to remain dignified and respectful to each other and offer counter narrative in a civilized manner, for the sake of all those victims in Turkey and elsewhere due to the global wave of terrorism. rest in peace to the innocent dead in Turkey and rest of the world.

It been predicated when first Islamic militant enter Syria through Turkey.

 

[Zarvan]

the guy you responded to, belongs to a mindset of people who have no respect for human life. how depraved and disgusting such mindset is that it sees nothing beyond its political and sectarian differences.

making the same mistake over and over again and expecting a different result. thats what is happening in the middle east. you can quote ten more terror organisations that are the result of this mindset but it would be like talking to the brick wall . just goes to show you what kind of people Muhammad PBUH had to deal with and convince throughout his lifetime.


I am no better either. reason to tag you is to get a chance of a neutral take on this crises. everyone else re middle east carries a baggage. I gave a veiled reference to the 80's Zia policy as well so you might see the similarities there.

but thanks for being polite and honest about the subject matter. something that few members here failed to show.


I will await that as a refreshing post which doesnt carry the emotional and politically charged baggage people on either side have upon their shoulders


thanks. like I said I am here to learn and change my view if convinced logically.
yours sir is by far the the best Turkish post I have come across for a very long time.


brother, the economic prosperity talk is irrelevant here when the bombs are exploding on regular bases. question was if this carnage and suffering of Turkey a result of its government policies and misdirection or is it just a helpless victim of a bigger game where the events are beyond its control? and if so .. what has the government done to fix it?

you gave a brief explanation of Erdogan's actions and its reasons but you didn't answer the main question. how the Turkish people can be saved from this terrorism of Daesh when Turkey continues to serve as Pakistan for Saudis and Americans (who look pretty from distance.. safe and sound).

please forgive me, but I feel really bad for Turkey it feels so similar to Pakistan.give few years,.. the cheering crowd will wash its hands off Turkey and we will get to see articles and talkshows on western media against Turkey just like its the case with Pakistan. I pray it never happens but I need to see some action against the perpetrators.


yes Assad is evil and Iran is bad and shias are misguided .. I hear that response but this has not stopped bombs and shootings in Turkey and Egypt and Iraq and Syria.

I mean come on. Daesh? what a fing joke... if there is honesty and commitment.. can this fake state survive even for days let alone years?

Similar Daesh has to be eliminated borders have to be sealed and sorry but it's time for all Muslim countries to send ground troops in Syria and also help Iraq take back Mosul. It would be bloody and take time but it's only way to do it

 

[Daneshmand]

Yet another logical topic by a free-thinker. Such an enlightened rational debate as commanded by the OP, may not be possible in the middle of a war. It is only when the war is over that the Generals can start behaving with civility. During the war, it is all about brute force, deception, daggers drawn in the back and worse.

History is a long affair of a cold nature. If it we were not its subjects, with more ease we could marvel and even admire its ruthless ability to promote the brave and daring while destroying the faint hearted and slave minded. Like we already do admire the natural selection in nature, the political history of ourselves is on par and sometimes exceed the ruthless machinations of natural selection. And that is why the world is so beautiful.

Too much has been written and said about Turkey and Syria. Two countries did officially warn Turkey in 2012 when the rest of the Western world and its allies were cheerleading Turkey to jump into Syria (Iran and Pakistan). But I don't want to inflame nerves here and talk about the truth and facts since it would only hurt people who are not yet ready to hear and accept the truth. History will of course take its course and price will be paid in full. Unfortunately, in politics very similar to biology, mistakes are not forgiven by mother nature. The mother nature favors her stronger sons, and weakens the weaker ones, eventually weeding the weakest ones out. Mother nature is only kind when you are strong. One more thing mother nature does not like is biting something bigger than you can handle and if you do, the mother nature will exact her price with interest.

Let's not kid ourselves what is going on here, whether in Syria or in Yemen or in Timbuktu.

It is a war. A war for selection of who along with allies will dominate the region. Just like old times. Just like always. Just like how empires used to fight in our school history books. The old order crumbles and new one takes its place. If on the other hand old order wins, it will emerge as a weaker force than before since it has expended its resources to fight for its survival, inviting further challenge by a new order, and if eventually a new order wins, then the new order becomes stronger since it has ascended from bottom to the top.

Today an old order exists in the world, with its roots in three major events of history. 1) Industrialized colonization by Europeans and its continuity by way of modern economic and legal tools/processes, 2) Rise of Nazism and its defeat in World War II, leading to modern international legal structure with pax americanism replacing pax britannica and 3) Communism, cold war and its defeat leading to the current world.

In all these three events, most of the world countries were and are pawns to be played in a gigantic game of chess named realpolitik, by the people of Western heritage. Whole nations were enslaved. Some were enslaved and actually liked their slavery because they were not completely free humans to begin with, but were of a hybrid half breed disposition, here I am talking about the half idiot and half puppet types. Others became slaves since their leaders were paid handsomely, and yet some others became slaves because their greed was of such enormity which caused them to think of themselves as someone in their past or future history, who they were not in reality, therefore selling their soul to the master lord in order become the most famous puppet in the pit.

One of the Delphic maxims was the famous "know thyself". And boy, these two words make and break one man and entire civilizations alike.

So who are those challenging the status quo? Who are challenging the old order and the lord master with his armies of midget puppets that are trying to save the old order? Why the master has become so desperate as to employ savage tribes and zombie ideologies to keep his throne? Are the challengers winning? Will the master call for a truce with challengers? Will "permanent" peace come through this truce or through the belly of an outright victory for either the master lord or the challengers?

I don't know. I know in war people will get killed. I know that war in one shape or other is inevitable.

Some decades ago, US and its allies were fighting for total hegemony trying to save the status quo from a new challenger in East Asia. The new challenger fought bravely. Millions were killed. Millions more died in famines and as a result of indirect consequences of those wars. Pol pots were born and thrived. Then US, called a truce with this new challenger and President Nixon personally rode on his horse to the palace headquarter of the challenger force. Bloodshed stopped and a relative prosperity took its place for all parties involved. Would US have won if it had continued to fight the challenger force? How many more Pol Pot's would have had to be created to keep fighting the challenger? Will US break the truce now and take on the challenger of the East Asia once again?

I don't know. I only know in war people will get killed. I know that war in one shape or other is inevitable.

What I don't care anymore is what puppets say or fake-think. Because it is the bigger picture that matters in reality. Which puppet of what size and color, of either string or suck-puppet make, did what or which zombie savage tribes were employed to fight in this big picture against the challengers, I just let remain nameless characters in my story. Since their names do not matter at all. It could be the "evil Iran, Iraq and Assad", for all you care. What is important is the big picture of history. The history of a challenger, challenging the master lord and his puppet to a duel. Now it is up to the master lord to call a truce or fight it to the end.

I don't know what the master lord will do. I only know in war people will get killed. I know that all truces will eventually break down and lead to war.

This is all I have to say:

To friends, stay strong.

To enemies, call a truce or you will be defeated. Such is the challenger's resolve. Such is her maxim.

To puppets, no worries, you shall be worn and come alive again. With a different new hand inside you. A new master's hand, with all new a role for you play and amuse.

To savages, your end is nigh and horrible. As was always in history.

 

[VCheng]

I will await that as a refreshing post which doesnt carry the emotional and politically charged baggage people on either side have upon their shoulders

@Irfan Baloch Sir, let me make my response not specific to any country, while still bringing forth the salient points that should be discussed in my view.

Let us take the case of Agrabah, that fictional Disney destination loved by many. Nowadays it is not doing too well, with bomb blasts and other terrorist activities degrading the quality of life for its citizens and damaging its economy. The whole region is in turmoil and problems within the country are thought to be related to that as well, particularly a secessionist movement in the distant provinces. Concerns are being raised whether the country is acting as a pawn, willingly or not knowingly, but a pawn nonetheless, for the big world powers. The solutions for this situation will depend on what is revealed by such an analysis.

First, some basic concepts need to be understood. Bomb blasts and similar violent events are not the problem; they are merely a symptom of the actual problem. Any country cannot be taken in isolation in a region where there is widespread turmoil. And, solutions can be effective only if the problem is diagnosed correctly.

What the good people of Agrabah need to realize is that the present scenario has its roots in decades past, when they demanded that the line between personal practice of religion and state enforcement of religion be removed, so that everyone could lead pious and harmonious lives according to the wishes of the majority of the people.

They got their wish as the rulers were only too happy to oblige the people for their own reasons.

But, like all wishes, it came with unintended consequences. Trying to achieve unity of thought, practice and belief in a nation of tens upon tens of millions of people was an exercise in futility. The more such efforts at achieving unanimity failed, the more frustrated and authoritarian the majority became. What the people did not realize was that it is diversity that makes a nation strong, and it is tolerance that matures the workings of a civilized society. Eliminating diversity imposed a certain set of rules to the exclusion of all else, and the lack of tolerance only destabilized civil society into a more primitive and barbaric form, the target of which became the majority itself.

Once the rulers had decided to lead their people down this dangerous path, reversal became impossible. Crackdowns by the State on anything and everything perceived to be against the enforced tyranny of the majority were carried out and academics, politicians and journalists jailed, but to no no avail. At the same time, brutal military operations were ordered against secessionists in the far reaches of the land, with only limited successes.

Stung by the criticisms of their failures, the rulers resorted to blatant lying, telling their people that it was the foreign powers that were creating all these problems, while at the same time they were making deals in private with those very same powers for support, offering up national resources to be manipulated for others' goals.

Does all of this sound familiar?

Some blunt truths need to be mentioned here. Many other nations have found themselves in such a situation. Only a few have been able to break themselves out of this trap of their own creation. Yes, it is only Agrabah itself to blame for its problems, not anyone else.

Only if the rulers understand that they cannot heal a broken leg by putting on a band-aid on it. It will take a rigid cast, and a long period of recovery and healing, but only if carried on with sincerity. The people need to be taught to put back the genie of imposed religion back into the personal space where it belongs and not as the business of the State. The governments needs to deliver the basics of social development: education, health, justice and economic opportunity. Making peace with the neighbors with the support of the international community will set the stage to free up scarce national resources for reallocation for maximum benefit.

And all of this will take decades to achieve.

Then, and only then, will the bomb blasts stop in Agrabah. Other countries will decide for themselves.

 

[Daneshmand]

@Irfan Baloch Sir, let me make my response not specific to any country, while still bringing forth the salient points that should be discussed in my view.

Let us take the case of Agrabah, that fictional Disney destination loved by many. Nowadays it is not doing too well, with bomb blasts and other terrorist activities degrading the quality of life for its citizens and damaging its economy. The whole region is in turmoil and problems within the country are thought to be related to that as well, particularly a secessionist movement in the distant provinces. Concerns are being raised whether the country is acting as a pawn, willingly or not knowingly, but a pawn nonetheless, for the big world powers. The solutions for this situation will depend on what is revealed by such an analysis.

First, some basic concepts need to be understood. Bomb blasts and similar violent events are not the problem; they are merely a symptom of the actual problem. Any country cannot be taken in isolation in a region where there is widespread turmoil. And, solutions can be effective only if the problem is diagnosed correctly.

What the good people of Agrabah need to realize is that the present scenario has its roots in decades past, when they demanded that the line between personal practice of religion and state enforcement of religion be removed, so that everyone could lead pious and harmonious lives according to the wishes of the majority of the people.

They got their wish as the rulers were only too happy to oblige the people for their own reasons.

But, like all wishes, it came with unintended consequences. Trying to achieve unity of thought, practice and belief in a nation of tens upon tens of millions of people was an exercise in futility. The more such efforts at achieving unanimity failed, the more frustrated and authoritarian the majority became. What the people did not realize was that it is diversity that makes a nation strong, and it is tolerance that matures the workings of a civilized society. Eliminating diversity imposed a certain set of rules to the exclusion of all else, and the lack of tolerance only destabilized civil society into a more primitive and barbaric form, the target of which became the majority itself.

Once the rulers had decided to lead their people down this dangerous path, reversal became impossible. Crackdowns by the State on anything and everything perceived to be against the enforced tyranny of the majority were carried out and academics, politicians and journalists jailed, but to no no avail. At the same time, brutal military operations were ordered against secessionists in the far reaches of the land, with only limited successes.

Stung by the criticisms of their failures, the rulers resorted to blatant lying, telling their people that it was the foreign powers that were creating all these problems, while at the same time they were making deals in private with those very same powers for support, offering up national resources to be manipulated for others' goals.

Does all of this sound familiar?

Some blunt truths need to be mentioned here. Many other nations have found themselves in such a situation. Only a few have been able to break themselves out of this trap of their own creation. Yes, it is only Agrabah itself to blame for its problems, not anyone else.

Only if the rulers understand that they cannot heal a broken leg by putting on a band-aid on it. It will take a rigid cast, and a long period of recovery and healing, but only if carried on with sincerity. The people need to be taught to put back the genie of imposed religion back into the personal space where it belongs and not as the business of the State. The governments needs to deliver the basics of social development: education, health, justice and economic opportunity. Making peace with the neighbors with the support of the international community will set the stage to free up scarce national resources for reallocation for maximum benefit.

And all of this will take decades to achieve.

Then, and only then, will the bomb blasts stop in Agrabah. Other countries will decide for themselves.

What you say is noble in context of the need for a new way of thinking in Muslim lands. After all such religious flaws have been used and will be used, by political forces needing advantage to promote themselves. But I am not sure if bombs will stop even if there was no Islam at all. Pol Pot implemented Year Zero and banned all religion. And he believed he did the right thing to the end, saying:

"I want you know, everything I did, I did for my country." Pol Pot

 

[VCheng]

What you say is noble in context of the need for a new way of thinking in Muslim lands. After all such religious flaws have been used and will be used, by political forces needing advantage to promote themselves. But I am not sure if bombs will stop even if there was no Islam at all. Pol Pot implemented Year Zero and banned all religion. And he believed he did the right thing to the end, saying:

"I want you know, everything I did, I did for my country." Pol Pot

Banning religion is not the solution. Keeping it away from matters of State is the key that enables social development for all citizens. Everything else follows from that foundation.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Daneshmand @Syed.Ali.Haider
for some reason Reza Aslan's name keeps popping up in the mind.
hurd him recently
he says beliefs themselves are not an issue much its only when some of the extreme views are put into action

example Saudi beliefs and Daesh beliefs of Islam are the same. its only that Daesh has put them into action.
he further says, religion is not God.. but a path to God. and faith is something very personal.

back on topic, does blaming neighbours and west solve the problem? (symptoms that are hurting us all?). no they don't.
what are the causes? the the puritan crusade by some people within the country and (the bigger brotherhood). my way or the highway.

 

[VCheng]

back on topic, does blaming neighbours and west solve the problem? (symptoms that are hurting us all?). no they don't.
what are the causes? the the puritan crusade by some people within the country and (the bigger brotherhood). my way or the highway.

Sir, please take a look here for the answers you ask above, as an example:

US policies responsible for regional instability, says Sartaj Aziz | Page 2

Can you believe this, I can't..... | Page 4

The "my way or the highway" syndrome is the death of civilized society. Just look at how PDF deals with dissenting views as another example, with vilification in extremis as a typical response.

Enough said, for Agrabah, of course.

 

[Daneshmand]

Banning religion is not the solution. Keeping it away from matters of State is the key that enables social development for all citizens. Everything else follows from that foundation.

Only if it was the case with Islam. (Un)fortunately Islam comes loaded with claims to every aspect of life including the political life. You can not extricate Islam from political life without reinterpreting Islam. For the past 1400 years, Muslims have been sincere and literal believers that once true Islam is implemented politically, then paradisaical life would begin on earth.

A billion and a half or so believe in this as a matter of life and death. And you are telling me here that once religion is "kept away from matters of state" then it will be alright. How so? And how are we to keep such a religion away from state? I guess bayonets and guns will have to be implemented to keep Islam away from state. Now wouldn't that be an irony with regard to topic of this thread?

A certain Muslim country created under the European interpretation of nationalism of the time, with a relatively modern population and a relatively longer secular tradition in its governance, is slowly drifting towards Islamization of its state policies, not much dissimilar to Islamization of Pakistan. After about 100 years of secular rule, first the foreign policy was Islamized and now a certain flavor of Islamization is creeping into this country, slowly. After all, there are people who really believe in Islam's role to dominate politics. One way or the other. You can not disregard them. Neither you can depend on their degree to which their wish shall go in this regard.