When ignorance of Kalma made IAF pilot a Pakistan PoW

[SarthakGanguly]

What 're we coming to?

Matter and anti matter. Exceptions notwithstanding.

 

[Levina]

So, @HAIDER @KingMamba @Thorough Pro @fahadmahmood20 @Rajput Warrior @Green Arrow @levina @SarthakGanguly @Soumitra @Lord Aizen @third eye

He was supposed to give his name and rank interrogated by Uniformed personals , He could only put up a charade in front of civilians.Assuming that it is even wise to do so, since rangers would have driven hime to nearest military base anyway.

This has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing Kalma.

Titles 're given to catch eyeballs!!!
And this thread would get many.

 

[Rajput Warrior]

Pretty stupid chestthumping from Pakistanis.


According to Article 5 of Geneva convention 1929, a officer is bound to declare , if he is interrogated on the subject, his true name and rank, or his regimental number.

https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl...63da005fdb1b/eb1571b00daec90ec125641e00402aa6


So, @HAIDER @KingMamba @Thorough Pro @fahadmahmood20 @Rajput Warrior @Green Arrow @levina @SarthakGanguly @Soumitra @Lord Aizen @third eye

He was supposed to give his name and rank interrogated by Uniformed personals , He could only put up a charade in front of civilians.Assuming that it is even wise to do so, since rangers would have driven hime to nearest military base anyway.

This has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing Kalma. You Pakistanis have a bad record of scholarship in contemporary History as you people are suckers for propaganda.

Chest thimping ? Me ? Where ?
Who cares it's all in the past. The officer tried to escape but got caught end of story ? Why make an issue out of it?

 

[asad71]

Not sure abt indians though. The elders still tell us abt the funny stories of the indians in 65 war. Believe me some of them are just hilarious. I just wish if sir @Muradk was here. And oh wait @asad71 do u remember any funny stories abt indian pilots or army or even navy men?

Sqn Ldr Cariappa Jr was shot down over Pakistan and he had bailed out. When the troops reached to get him,his first sentence was, "Mujhe Uncle Ayub ka pa's le chalo" / take me to Uncle Ayub. Ayub had known the Cariappas during his service days. Begum Ayub would later visit Cariappa Jr at RWP CMH. Interestingly IAF POWs were the first to be released after the War.

 

[third eye]

Sir is that why you are bringing in deceased children to reply to that poster? Poor attitude.

I am attempting to jolt people into reality, in our culture when a death takes place in the family people do not enjoy themselves for at least 13 days.

Sqn Ldr Cariappa Jr was shot down over Pakistan and he had bailed out. When the troops reached to get him,his first sentence was, "Mujhe Uncle Ayub ka pa's le chalo" / take me to Uncle Ayub. Ayub had known the Cariappas during his service days. Begum Ayub would later visit Cariappa Jr at RWP CMH. Interestingly IAF POWs were the first to be released after the War.

From wiki:

Air Marshal Cariappa was a Squadron Leader with No.20 Squadron during the 1965 Indo-Pakistan War. He was shot down while carrying out air attacks during the 1965 war with Pakistan and was taken prisoner. President Ayub Khan, former colleague of General Cariappa before the 1947 Partition, offered to release his son. But the General's terse reply was: “They [POWs] are all my sons, look after them well.”

His version :

My Reminiscences as a Prisoner of War -: Air Marshal K C Cariappa [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

I was a Prisoner of War! The time was 0904 because my watch had stopped, presumably on impact with the ground. I was asked who I was and from where I had taken off. As per standard procedures, I rather parrot-like gave my "name, rank and number". It was then that I was asked if I was related to General Cariappa. I feigned a faint because of the pain, or maybe I did pass out. The next thing I knew was that I was lying on a litter in the back of a jeep and was being questioned by a Brigadier. After some first aid I was moved to a rear location, to a place called Luliani were for sometime I was left on the floor awaiting treatment and then as it transpired, evacuation to a hospital. I have no recollections of that journey. When I did come to, I found myself in a hospital bed and in excruciating agony. This was the military hospital in Lahore.

The following day I was taken to the operation theatre and was told the extent of my injuries. I was impressed by the number of doctors who had returned from abroad to be of service to their nation at this juncture in its history. I stayed in hospital for about a week during which time General Musa the Pakistan Army C-in-C visited. He came to see me, knowing by now that I was General Cariappa"s son. He asked if there was anything I wanted. All I could think of was being with the other Indian prisoners of war. From Lahore I was flown to Rawalpindi and kept in the hospital there, and it was during this time that I was visited by President Ayub Khan"s son. Treatment and food in the hospital was good, yet being in solitary confinement I was hankering to be with the other Indians.

This happened soon enough and suddenly one fine morning I was discharged from the MH and moved blindfolded to what turned out to be a prison cell. Here I was given a pair of black armoured corps overalls, and a pair of rubber-soled slippers. It was by now almost mid-Oct with the winter chill beginning to manifest itself. There was one charpoy for furniture and nothing else. I was also given three typical army blankets; one served as the mattress and the other two as a covering. By day the outer wooden doors were closed, I was in darkness with no light penetrating, and by night they were kept open with the single dull electric bulb switched on. If I wanted to use the toilet I would be taken blindfolded to the lavatory about 50 yards away. There the sentry would wait till I was through, and then would escort me back to my cell. It was here that a Major first interrogated me, and it was here that I really experienced the "fear of the unknown" for the first time as a POW. There is no more frightening condition than being in solitary confinement. I was not subjected to "third degree" treatment, but I was told that I had better answer all questions because if I did not, there would be no hesitation in "putting me away"!! I realized then that the standard "rank/name/number response would not help and so I did "reveal" what I thought to be innocuous information. This lasted over a period of three days. During this ten days I was incarcerated in the cell I was fed thick wholesome "chappatis and dal" twice a day. There would be a mug of sweet "langar" tea at 0700 and again at 1500. "Lights on time " was 1600. A few days later I was told that I would be moving to the main POW camp. I first moved to a transit camp in Rawalpindi itself where I was kept in "solitary" again for two days. It was here that I met a Pakistan Army JCO who, having learned that I was my father"s son, came up to me and said he heard that I was in the Sadr Kothi (he meant the President"s home). I of course denied this.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Sqn Ldr Cariappa Jr was shot down over Pakistan and he had bailed out. When the troops reached to get him,his first sentence was, "Mujhe Uncle Ayub ka pa's le chalo" / take me to Uncle Ayub. Ayub had known the Cariappas during his service days. Begum Ayub would later visit Cariappa Jr at RWP CMH. Interestingly IAF POWs were the first to be released after the War.

Well that is the old Army Generals for u. But can u tell us or share with us some funny moments from the war regarding their soldiers?

 

[HAIDER]

Titles 're given to catch eyeballs!!!
And this thread would get many.

Its not me , its times of india.

 

[MastanKhan]

Lol well I hope PA has better method to determine an enemy soldier today, I think most Indians troops would be equipped with some basic knowledge such as the kalma by now. Heck even the japs during ww2 were told to recite the kalma if they are caught in India as it may warrant them better treatment at the very least since they cannot blend in.

Hi,

It should tell you how ignorant we are----our final litmus test is based on the recitation of 'kalma'.

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

It should tell you how ignorant we are----our final litmus test is based on the recitation of 'kalma'.

easiest interrogation method...lolzz or judging the enemy....

 

[graphican]

It is pretty hard to fake the accent. Pakistanis speak different accent from Indians altogether. Even Urdu spoken in parts of India has different dialect. If next time somebody is captured, ask them to tell jokes and see if you are familiar with those. Also ask them to name sweets and few herbal medicine commonly used. Remembering names of cities and roads is common but you cannot fake every-day life. I wonder if you ask them what is the length is his "shalwaar" and see if an Indian can answer it correctly and let him wear one and see if he puts the "press" in a direction where it needs to be.

 

[MastanKhan]

Graphican,

Please allow me to say that it is extremely stupid----no civilian or a cop has any right to ask any questions regarding identity but to arrest them and take them to either a nearest police station or a military base immediately. Then the name number and rank needs to be matched for verifications.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Yes one can switch to a different language but its not easy to hide the accent, especially for Indians as they have a very unique way of delivery that is easily identified from miles away.

I know a story of Indian Navy officers who spoke Russian to confuse the Pakistanis during 1971 attack on Karachi Harbour

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

On entering the village, he was surrounded by a large number of residents. Among them was a school headmaster who was apparently not convinced that Bhargava was a PAF pilot. He started posing questions on Bhargava's native place in Pakistan. "When I said that I was from Rawalpindi, he asked me where did I stay? When I told him that I resided on Mall Road, he said I was in an Indian village. When I requested them to let me go back to Pakistan, he assured me that he was only testing me."



"They did not believe me when I reiterated that I was Mansur Ali of PAF. Around 9pm, one of them, Awaj Ali, asked me to read the Kalma. He even recited it and asked me to repeat it, but I could not. He then threatened me to tell the truth or they would extract it some other way. I told them that I was Flt Lt Jawahar Lal Bhargava of the IAF and they could do whatever they wanted to with me, even kill me," said the veteran.

talk about mind games and a mind f*ck

ill give it to the pilot....he tried. He was briefed, but not "briefed" well enough on "survival"

im glad he was released though. B+ for effort

Great to see the patriotic villagers doing some good interrogation work.


very interesting story, i must say. My first time hearing about this.

No. I am sure the commodore knew it. He did not WANT to recite it - is all. He preferred death to reciting the Kal'ma.

well he claimed to be a Pakistani from Rawalpindi; I think it was just his dialect and inability to recite Kalima (he said "I couldnt") which caused the suspicions

but nice try there

 

[dil_dil]

Yes one can switch to a different language but its not easy to hide the accent, especially for Indians as they have a very unique way of delivery that is easily identified from miles away.

Even Indian punjabis cannot fake our punjabi, our way of speaking is way different.

CHANDIGARH: Forty-three years ago, when young Flight Lieutenant (who retired as Air Commodore) Jawahar Lal Bhargava ejected from his aircraft in Pakistan territory after being shot down, he had almost made it to India by posing as Flt Lt Mansur Ali of Pakistan Air Force. However, as luck would have it, his ignorance about the "Kalma" (testimony of Islamic faith) made him a prisoner of war ( PoW).

Talking to TOI, the 73-year-old veteran, Air Commodore Bhargava, who had to spent almost a year in Pakistan during 1971 Indo-Pak war after his HF-24 9 aircraft — popularly known as "Marut" — was shot down, recalled how an IAF pilot deals with the situation after landing in enemy territory.

Bhargava, who recently shifted to Panchkula from Gurgaon, said he took off from Air Force station Barmer (Rajasthan) on the morning of December 5, 1971, on his first sortie to launch an attack in the enemy territory.


Around 9am, his aircraft was hit by ground fire and he decided to eject. His parachute had barely opened when he touched down and the "Marut" had crashed into a sand dune.

He immediately took out some items from the survival pack, buried his G-suit under the bushes, set his watch on Pakistan standard time and started marching away from the aircraft.

While he was struggling to find some way to escape to Indian territory, he ran into three people from an adjacent village. Bhargava introduced himself as pilot Mansoor Ali of Pakistan Air Force (PAF), whose plane was shot down by Indian forces. He even showed them Pakistan currency. They took him to the village, where his real test began.

On entering the village, he was surrounded by a large number of residents. Among them was a school headmaster who was apparently not convinced that Bhargava was a PAF pilot. He started posing questions on Bhargava's native place in Pakistan. "When I said that I was from Rawalpindi, he asked me where did I stay? When I told him that I resided on Mall Road, he said I was in an Indian village. When I requested them to let me go back to Pakistan, he assured me that he was only testing me."

Bhargava planned to escape from the village at 8pm on the pretext of going to relieve himself, but to his surprise, four Pakistani rangers arrived there — apparently called by the headmaster — and began grilling him.

"They did not believe me when I reiterated that I was Mansur Ali of PAF. Around 9pm, one of them, Awaj Ali, asked me to read the Kalma. He even recited it and asked me to repeat it, but I could not. He then threatened me to tell the truth or they would extract it some other way. I told them that I was Flt Lt Jawahar Lal Bhargava of the IAF and they could do whatever they wanted to with me, even kill me," said the veteran.

Thereafter, he was blindfolded, handcuffed and handed over to the Pakistani army on December 8, 1971.

Bhargava said if he had been able to repeat the Kalma that day, he would have escaped from Pakistan that very night.

What actually happened is that he begged for forgiveness and was captured instead of killed on spot.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

No. I am sure the commodore knew it. He did not WANT to recite it - is all. He preferred death to reciting the Kal'ma.

Politics aside - that is a very sad state of things. I'm speaking from a purely religious standpoint, as it's tradition that a man who has even an atom of the Kalima in his heart can eventually end up in Paradise. All the rest considered, of course.

Just ignore my babbling, I had a strange urge to put this out.

Heck even the japs during ww2 were told to recite the kalma if they are caught in India as it may warrant them better treatment at the very least since they cannot blend in.

One has to wonder what the Kalima sounds like in odd languages - Chinese dialects for the example.