What would happen if Venezuela sold its F-16's to Iran?

[Aspen]

please reverse engineered an F-22 raptor ? its hard work and money of centuries sometime to give you this tech ,

Or you could take blunt Chinese approach and just hack Lockheed Martin itself

If Iran just wants to reverse engineer it, maybe they don't even need to buy it, they just send some people to Venezuela to look at one in detail.

 

[El Sidd]

On Topic: Iran is great
Off Topic: Iran was great

 

[Imran Khan]

They would fall out of sky like bird poop?

they are block 15 from 1982-84 engines already done their jobs and its very hard to keep them air worthy now . unless uncle support them .also air frames are on limit . avionics will be very old

 

[Philosopher]

I know. And what happened to Shafagh? Is it in service? No. The project is really old. I think it was something that we planned to do together with Russians in 2007 or maybe even before that. Did it ever materialize?

You can blame sanctions and the political environment for that. Furthermore, we do not know how far that really project went.

We can get a good deal. Venezuela is tight on money now and it doesn't need those 20 F16s anymore and it doesn't even have the technology we have to upgrade them or reverse engineer them. It can end up very cheap for us.

Even if Iran did everything you said by tomorrow, it would not change the regional calculation by much at all. In reality, if Iran chooses to reverse engineer that platform and upgrade it, it would take years if not a decade. What sort of airforce do you think our adversaries will have in a decade time? That's why I said, the F-16 as a platform is now relatively limited. No need for Iran to waste time and resources on it.

 

[Imran Khan]

Or you could take blunt Chinese approach and just hack Lockheed Martin itself

If Iran just wants to reverse engineer it, maybe they don't even need to buy it, they just send some people to Venezuela to look at one in detail.

this will be easy just hack all LM and transfer the plant anywhere you need .

I know. And what happened to Shafagh? Is it in service? No. The project is really old. I think it was something that we planned to do together with Russians in 2007 or maybe even before that. Did it ever materialize?

We can get a good deal. Venezuela is tight on money now and it doesn't need those 20 F16s anymore and it doesn't even have the technology we have to upgrade them or reverse engineer them. It can end up very cheap for us.


Yes, I have seen the documentary you talk about. But no, even in the last years of the Iraq-Iran war, our F14s were in bad shape. Many of the AIM-54 Phoenix missiles we had bought were not operable anymore.

It's a miracle that Iran still operates its F14s. But it's not surprising considering Iran's capabilities. I mean our civilian airlines suffer from sanctions too, and we are still operating huge Boeing and Airbus passenger airplanes thanks to our engineers.


That's why I said "If you're willing to spend enough time and money on it".

Honestly, if we had an only one F22 at our disposal, it would've been a very valuable asset for our engineers.

in this case f-22 will be ready at 2120 when people will be riding interstellar fighter jets .

 

[QWECXZ]

You can blame sanctions and the political environment for that. Furthermore, we do not know how far that really project went.

Even if Iran did everything you said by tomorrow, it would not change the regional calculation by much at all. In reality, if Iran chooses to reverse engineer that platform and upgrade it, it would take years if not a decade. What sort of airforce do you think our adversaries will have in a decade time? That's why I said, the F-16 as a platform is now relatively limited. No need for Iran to waste time and resources on it.

If upgrading F16s will take us a decade, building a turbofan engine and developing our own stealth technology will take us half a century at least. And what kind of air force do you think our adversaries will have by then? I am sure that at least manned air force will have become obsolete by then.

 

[Aspen]

Even if Iran did everything you said by tomorrow, it would not change the regional calculation by much at all. In reality, if Iran chooses to reverse engineer that platform and upgrade it, it would take years if not a decade. What sort of airforce do you think our adversaries will have in a decade time? That's why I said, the F-16 as a platform is now relatively limited. No need for Iran to waste time and resources on it.

I wouldn't say F-16 is outdated. Yeah Venezuela's spec is not the latest but it's still an F-16. Turkey has it, Pakistan has it, UAE has it, heck even Iraq has it. I would not say its outdated by any stretch, upgrading will not be difficult once you have the platform. Iran would have understood this from the F-14 days.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Iran should have reverse engineered it as they have done with F-5s.

 

[Aspen]

this will be easy just hack all LM and transfer the plant anywhere you need .

Yeah, that is exactly what China is doing.

If upgrading F16s will take us a decade, building a turbofan engine and developing our own stealth technology will take us half a century at least. And what kind of air force do you think our adversaries will have by then? I am sure that at least manned air force will have become obsolete by then.

I think 10 or even 20 years from now, US will have same Air Force. It will not be different in 20 years compared to now.

they are block 15 from 1982-84 engines already done their jobs and its very hard to keep them air worthy now . unless uncle support them .also air frames are on limit . avionics will be very old

Iran has had a lot of experience making things that are not airworthy airworthy. Maintaining engines is difficult but not impossible.

 

[QWECXZ]

Iran has had a lot of experience making things that are not airworthy airworthy. Maintaining engines is difficult but not impossible.

How many countries produce turbofan engines? 5 at most, if we include China. 3 of them are our adversaries that would bomb Iran instantly if they thought they could win the war, 2 of them are global powers that we can't rely on them. One of the two has a history of not fulfilling its promises times and times again. The other one is very new to all of this.

How do you plan to build a turbofan engine from scratch?

 

[Philosopher]

If upgrading F16s will take us a decade,

I suggest you learn a little around reverse engineering. How long do you think it will take to reverse engineer and build a plane? You think it will be done in a couple of years?

building a turbofan engine

No one said Iran has to build its own turbofan.

and developing our own stealth technology will take us half a century at least.

Designing our own plane can take the same amount of time. You're talking as if stealth technology is something arcane. It is a very well known idea and it is all to do with how one designs the plane. The materials used are another factors. Iran has been working on all of this for many years.

And what kind of air force do you think our adversaries will have by then?

They will be getting their hands on stealth fighters. Israel already has its own. The Persian Gulf states will get their hands on them one way or another.

I am sure that at least manned air force will have become obsolete by then.

Manned air force will not be going anywhere, anytime soon.

 

[QWECXZ]

I suggest you learn a little around reverse engineering. How long do you think it will take to reverse engineer and build a plane? You think it will be done in a couple of years?

No one said Iran has to build its own turbofan.

Designing our own plane can take the same amount of time. You're talking as if stealth technology is something arcane. It is a very well known idea and it is all to do with how one designs the plane. The materials used are another factors. Iran has been working on all of this for many years.

They will be getting their hands on stealth fighters. Israel already has its own. The Persian Gulf states will get their hands on them one way or another.

Manned air force will not be going anywhere, anytime soon.

You don't have to replicate an F16. You just need to learn enough to be able to integrate your own systems and upgrade it to a level that can match the capabilities of your neighbors. You can always equip it with EW systems to compensate for its lack of stealthiness against regional adversaries. And use radar absorbing paint to improve it slightly.

If F16s were obsolete, Israel wouldn't have used them in Syria times and times again.

Then how do you plan to build a 5th gen. fighter jet? Assume that our neighbors will receive F22s and F35s by 2030. Do you think Iran can produce a 5th generation fighter by then? What would be its engine?

No, it will take tremendously more time because we won't be able to produce the engine and no one is willing to give us engines for our own fighters. And as long as you don't know what engine you will use, designing an aircraft is a joke. So, talk about designing our own jet fighters when you have an answer to the question "what engine do you want to use on this?".

I said manned air force would be obsolete in half a century (the time it will take Iran to build something like F22 or F35 without foreign assistance, assuming it can't upgrade a jet fighter produced by the US 40 years ago). And yes, manned air force will be obsolete by 2070. I don't have any doubt about it.

 

[Philosopher]

I wouldn't say F-16 is outdated. Yeah Venezuela's spec is not the latest but it's still an F-16. Turkey has it, Pakistan has it, UAE has it, heck even Iraq has it. I would not say its outdated by any stretch, upgrading will not be difficult once you have the platform. Iran would have understood this from the F-14 days.

Two factors to consider. One is the stealth factor which us playing a very important role today and going into the future. The other factor is the subsystems used in the platform. F-16 is an inherently non-stealth design. No matter how much you upgrade it, it will always fall short against a 5th generation fighter (assuming pilots are of similar skill set). Furthermore, people are not thinking properly in terms of time-scale. Iran's adversaries are flying many 4th generation planes today, but by the time Iran manages to develop its own set of 4th planes (lets assume by using an F-16 from Venezuela as a template) these planes will be even more outdated. That is why it is important for Iran to aim for future proof technologies, an inherently stealthy design is key.

 

[zectech]

We all know that Iran's main problem for producing a jet fighter is the engine. Do you think Russia or China would agree to a ToT for turbofan engines and stealth technology?

When the Chinese ambassador to Iran visits, have ambassador employees exchange flash drives of Bavar 373s and FC-31s data. Then days later, have the Chinese claim that Iranian hackers stole jet fighter/stealth technology for cover.

This is how you ToT without US sanctions.

 

[Philosopher]

You don't have to replicate an F16. You just need to learn enough to be able to integrate your own systems and upgrade it to a level that can match the capabilities of your neighbors.

Read my comment to the member Aspen. You need to think in terms of time-scale. 4th generation fighters are becoming relatively obsolete today, never-mind by the time your upgraded F-16 is ready. There is only so much you can do to an F-16 platform.

Then how do you plan to build a 5th gen. fighter jet? Assume that our neighbors will receive F22s and F35s by 2030. Do you think Iran can produce a 5th generation by then?

Iran will not be producing a fifth generation fighter before 2030s. However, the steps to make it happen are occurring. If Iran manages to obtain help from the outside, then naturally this will speed things up. There is no other alternative.

What would be its engine?

You do not need to wait around to build an engine. You can start off by importing foreign engines.

no one is willing to give us engines for our own fighters.

If the embargo is lifted, then there is little reason for a relatively friendly state not to export engines to Iran.

Manned air force will be obsolete by 2070. I don't have any doubt about it.

Manned planes will play less and less role as time goes on, but no one can give an exact time period when they will be "obsolete".