What would China be like today if the Nationalists had won the Chinese Civil War?

[Jlaw]

We be like India except weaker.

This is just a map visionalised by KMT but in reality, do Chiang KMT really control that large part of China?
Chiang is the one who signed the treaty to let soviet take over dalian port area for 40years of loan. Chiang is also ready to let tibet goes independent to please the western power.
Chiang is anti communist but he know he has no strength to fight soviet and most likely Outer Mongolia and xinjiang will remain under soviet control. Chiang is a person who believe territories sacrifice to archieve at stabilities and he is very eager to support the west.

And he would have given up Guangdong to the Vietnamese

Guys, I don't understand why you bother to waste your time with Nihonjin?

He is a die hard right-wing Japanese who pretends to be friendly with everyone, and he knows that KMT represents the weak China, and all Japanese right-wing members are desperate for a weak China that could let them to rape it again.

CPC has turned China into a strong superpower, and that literally drives every Japanese right-wingers apesh1t crazy.

Right. And who gives a **** about "what if KMT had won?" KMT lost. end of story. Anyone's guess is good as yours and mine.

What matters are the results.

And it was incompetence, why do you think Chen Shui-bian was jailed?

结束不择手段

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

What if what if.

What if a tricerotops killed a t rex 65 million years ago?
What if the first emperor of Qin slipped on a bowl of morning congee?
What if Genghis Khan severed his own dick after sheathing his sword wrong?
What if Chiang wasnt such a hopeless dcikhead?

In history there is no rerolling of the dice, no second chances. To discuss 'what if' is to let loose so many variables so as to make all arguments useless.

What if I decided to fight a panda tomorrow morning? will I win? This question is as important as the OP question.

 

[Jlaw]

Check the history books.

Did you know Chiang Kai-shek was kidnapped by his own generals, in order to FORCE him to fight against the Japanese?

His own generals had to kidnap him in order to get him to fight against the Japanese, how disgusting is that.

The KMT preferred to fight their fellow Chinese rather than the foreign invaders, and that is what doomed us.

Exactly . He should have just executed Chiang at the Xian incident.

What if what if.

What if a tricerotops killed a t rex 65 million years ago?
What if the first emperor of Qin slipped on a bowl of morning congee?
What if Genghis Khan severed his own dick after sheathing his sword wrong?
What if Chiang wasnt such a hopeless dcikhead?

In history there is no rerolling of the dice, no second chances. To discuss 'what if' is to let loose so many variables so as to make all arguments useless.

What if I decided to fight a panda tomorrow morning? will I win? This question is as important as the OP question.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

OK I can’t take Mao’s words as representative of all CCP members, you are correct. But it still gives me some idea to guess what kind of attitude the CCP leaders had towards their KMT compatriots during that war period.

The meaning of Mao's original words was "the Japanese invasion had brought all Chinese together."

If you like KMT so much, then China could consider to deport them to Vietnam.

 

[Jlaw]

How can a single mao word represent all CPC attitude? At 1972, mao is near his death and is senile. You cannot take a old mao's word seriously.

Mao was good for China. If your country is weak you need a strong leader like Mao. When your country is strong, you still need a strong leader.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

China would be a developed country


you mention Your party 挡？

Guess who is in the garbage can right now, it is the KMT.

Even Taiwan hates the KMT.

This useless party should rest in peace, and CPC will just watch that DPP puts the final nail on KMT's coffin.

Mao was good for China. If your country is weak you need a strong leader like Mao.

China always needs a strong leader like Mao.

 

[rott]

I'll rather kill myself if China was ruled by KMT. We wouldn't get a single gold medal in the Olympics. It would be such a disgrace.
Also, we were be wiping USA *** with our Chinese invention (paper).
Never bow down like the Koreans and the Japs. I always notice the way the bow to others and the whites. It's not a wonder they are both occupied by the US.
Slavish type of behavior.

 

[kankan326]

I have to say the CCP was a miracle. A sparkle among the dark old China. There was not one army in old China that could create so many miracles as CCP army did. Unlike spineless KMT, CCP had strong mind and was more tactical. Even though bad equipped, CCP's army was the greatest one in China history. It's very unlucky for Japanese that they invaded China when CCP was there.

 

[LowPost]

Even if KMT won the Civil war that would not stop the socialist movements because even if they were to lose the armed conflicts as long as USSR was there, there would be public support for socialist movements. Maybe there would be socialist insurgencies for decades.

You're right. I imagine that Mao, Zhou, the PLA generals and the entire CPC leadership would've fled to Moscow if the KMT had dispelled them from China. The USSR would use the CPC as a pawn to give Jiang a headache.

On world front, KMT would most probably seek strong relations(and assistance of course) with US to protect itself from the socialist opposition at home.

Sure. Plus, the US and its allies would try to arm China to its teeth and later, help them develop their own arms industry in order to counterbalance the Soviet Union.

Coming back to the CPC, Moscow could probably mastermind a coup d'état to topple Jiang which brings Mao or anyone else from the CPC to power. A communist-led China would remain friendly to the USSR for some time but I guess the likelihood is high that a Sino-Soviet split would happen regardless, so relations between China and the US-led West would've been reestablished.

If the plan had failed and the Russian bear had wanted to take the risk to directly engage Washington, it could have invaded China outright. Resistance would then depend on how long China had been building up their arms industry and for how long the US had been supplying military equipment to the KMT but imho the Soviet Army would have ended the war after a couple of weeks having captured Beijing. Soviet artillery, air strikes, tank divisions, airborne operations and Spetsnaz raids would possibly paralyse KMT's forces.
The question of America's reaction would be a separate one but if they realise that the KMT had become a lost cause in case of a Soviet invasion, they would have backed off and Washington would have felt riled.

As for Jiang's fate... my money would be on the supposition that he would have been ambushed and captured by Spetsnaz members before he could flee and/or commit suicide.

 

[Beast]

I have to say the CCP was a miracle. A sparkle among the dark old China. There was not one army in old China that could create so many miracles as CCP army did. Unlike spineless KMT, CCP had strong mind and was more tactical. Even though bad equipped, CCP's army was the greatest one in China history. It's very unlucky for Japanese that they invaded China when CCP was there.

The Korean war prove PLA is able to fight the best the world can assemble at that time. Facing a foe with formiable air power and massive artillery and armour and fight them to stalemate is a miracle. If it was KMT, they will be crushed in a week time.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

You're right. I imagine that Mao, Zhou, the PLA generals and the entire CPC leadership would've fled to Moscow if the KMT had dispelled them from China. The USSR would use the CPC as a pawn to give Jiang a headache.



Sure. Plus, the US and its allies would try to arm China to its teeth and later, help them develop their own arms industry in order to counterbalance the Soviet Union.

Coming back to the CPC, Moscow could probably mastermind a coup d'état to topple Jiang which brings Mao or anyone else from the CPC to power. A communist-led China would remain friendly to the USSR for some time but I guess the likelihood is high that a Sino-Soviet split would happen regardless, so relations between China and the US-led West would've been reestablished.

If the plan had failed and the Russian bear had wanted to take the risk to directly engage Washington, it could have invaded China outright. Resistance would then depend on how long China had been building up their arms industry and for how long the US had been supplying military equipment to the KMT but imho the Soviet Army would have ended the war after a couple of weeks having captured Beijing. Soviet artillery, air strikes, tank divisions, airborne operations and Spetsnaz raids would possibly paralyse KMT's forces.
The question of America's reaction would be a separate one but if they realise that the KMT had become a lost cause in case of a Soviet invasion, they would have backed off and Washington would have felt riled.

As for Jiang's fate... my money would be on the supposition that he would have been ambushed and captured by Spetsnaz members before he could flee and/or commit suicide.

There were several factions within during that, the pro-USSR one and the nationalistic one.

Mao belonged to the later one, while the pro-USSR one was Wang Ming, and the guy was even buried at Moscow after getting exiled by Mao.

 

[gambit]

China is China today with Cultural Revolution, India is India today without Cultural Revolution!

So you are saying that the bloody Cultural Revolution was a necessity. Got it.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

So you are saying that the bloody Cultural Revolution was a necessity. Got it.

You have to take the good with the bad. There was no cultural revolution in the KMT but there were bloody political purges nonetheless. So both the CPC and the KMT were violent towards political dissidents and wielded almsot absolute power. The difference was that the KMT was incompetent with its absolute power while the CPC used it wisely. The other difference was that the KMT had one man rule, not just one party rule, and had a Chiang Dynasty. even American generals were disgusted by the incompetence and brutality of the KMT. Harry Truman was about to cut Chiang Kai Shek off from all American aid until the start of the Korean War.

 

[powastick]

China confirm will spilt, look no futher at Taiwan. KMT cannot even hold on to it.

 

[William Hung]

The cultural revolution was indeed a huge organization of the population. It was a mass movement towards a single goal; how could it be possibly anything other than organization? That was the opposite of the problem that the KMT had: they couldn't organize and couldn't actually get shit done. The CPC has a past track record of being very successful at organizing the population to do big projects; the cultural revolution is one of these projects, same as the nuclear program, space program and naval program. I might also add the literacy and healthcare programs. The later 5 turned out to be good, the cultural revolution turned out to be bad, but all were based on mass organization. You don't seem to understand what organization is, so you think the Cultural Revolution was because the CPC failed to organize; no, it was that they organized people to do something useless. Doesn't mean they can't organize. No one would deny that coal mine bosses in Victorian England were very organized, yet what did they bring for their workers?

Dude the Cultural Revolution was more like a mass dis-organization rather than a mass orgainzation. Wide spread persecutions and violence without any proper rule of law, infighting within the CCP as well as outside such as in the local govt, schools, military, chaos in society, schools getting shut down, innocent people getting killed, etc. It seems like you are the one who doesn’t know what orgainzation is. What what was the “single goal” exactly? To purge some unwanted political rivals and to consolidate power for Mao? Why did the CCP admit that the Cultural Revolution was a mistake? Was it because the “goal” was a mistake or was it because the pursuit of this goal caused some bad consequences? In other words, the CCP had some poor organizational skills when they imposed this Cultural Revolution to persue that goal.

And don’t compare the organization of the Victorian era mines to the Cultural Revolution. The Victorian mine did not cause mass chaos by telling people to disobey their superiors, rebel and be suspicious of theor boss, etc. The Victorian era mines was fairly organized while the Cultural Revolution was just chaos.

And it is not a few past events. See, you are saying that the KMT era was turbulent and filled with conflict. Fine. The 50's and 60's elsewhere were also turbulent and filled with conflict including in mainland China itself. Why is the KMT excused because of this? And why did those same conditions not reappear during CPC rule? Why was it only during KMT rule that foreigners launched a full scale invasion of China that didn't even appear during the Qing Dynasty?

I use the exact same benchmarks: 20 years after start KMT rule, what has China accomplished relative to the rest of the world? 20 years after the start of CPC rule, what has China accomplished relative to the rest of the world? Actually not so bad compared to European countries going by technological benchmarks and improvements in social indicators. 30 years? Same shit. The KMT in Taiwan didn't even accomplish much until the 80's, after Chiang Kai Shek was dead.

My logic is very sound: at the same time benchmarks, using relative technological benchmarks to other countries, the KMT has never been as relatively successful. That's it.

You are still comparing apples to oranges. Yea the PRC from the 60s had a few armed skirmishes like the boarder conflict with India or the Soviet but are you saying those were comparable with the civil wars and the invasion of the IJA pre-1949???

So your “benchmarks” are still not valid at all since each “test” all had different “settings”. Ceteris Paribus!!!!