What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[danger007]

Well when the habitual Troll invokes 2002, I can pay back in kind.

You are wasting your time on troll master .. who can bring a new kinda story from empty air..

 

[MilSpec]

My bad, i forgot an Indian TT's only speciality is to solicit for his country fellows....makes the pack look more original.

In this case, just to put your behind in the place it belongs.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pakistan narrative was that it is freedom fighters who are fighting on their own and not being supported by us.
Indian narrative was that it is Pakistan Army which has crossed the border and occupied their land.

So PAF had no role in it. In fact the question should be that if according to India it was Pakistan Army that has occupied their territory then IAF should have crossed the border and attached Pakistani forward bases and other high value targets. But as we all know .. they didnt have the _____ to cross the border .. Oh wait .. sorry .. two Migs did cross .. the rest we all know ..

The Northern Light Infantry (NLI) formally joined the Army SUBSEQUENT TO the war given its valiant efforts. Kashmiri mujahideen were also part of the conflict and this is a widely accepted fact.

As for the Migs - 2 were shot down. I dont buy the indian narrative and the fact that the indians here bark and get so butt-hurt and defensive is beyond me. And there's no need to regurgitate what we already know - that PAF did not get involved in what was essentially a low/medium intensity conflict not an all-out-war.

Lt Gen Jamil Haider (2nd SSC) --Comd Arty FCNA. No one goes into the depth of reasons which forced the whole episode. No one talks of the Indian intentions and placing of Indian 70 Bde in Mashkoh Valley contrary to its usual deployment in Srinagar Valley during winters and our preemptive move. No one talks of the environment of 1997/1998 and the linkages with the situation in 12 Div. No one highlights the absence of move of our strategic forces which encouraged the Indians to move all assets up and achieve the 15:1 parity. The role of Indian Arty and IAF is totally over bloated.

At any rate we have a great view of Sri Nagar - Leh hwy NH1D.and there's nothing these hijras can do about it

My bad, i forgot an Indian TT's only speciality is to solicit for his country fellows....makes the pack look more original.

squeaks progress into howling when these rats congregate into mobs but that's nothing we didn't know alread

 

[Iggy]

Haha.. Now you resort to marking negative for arguments against you? @Abu Zolfiqar

@Joe Shearer @nair @hellfire

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

No point to discuss the small skirmish

 

[Hellfire]

Haha.. Now you resort to marking negative for arguments against you? @Abu Zolfiqar

@Joe Shearer @nair @hellfire

Ah you are talking about the good ol' first line of nonsense's acts?

Well not everyone is a Guderian or Kleist ... You can make out his achievements when he quoted the numerical superiority IA fielded as a rejoinder. A section level (10 personnel) defence requires a minimum Company plus in any high altitude mountainous warfare (almost 120) That is also not a safe bet. The reason being - simple limited axes of attack thereby funnelling of troops which allows excellent arc of fire for the defending forces. He has been called out for presenting factually incorrect point and as his bluff was called, he got personal in his insults.

The terrain from Eastern Gurez till Sub Sector West or Sub Sector Hanif as it is known now is made up of brittle barren rocks and steep ridges, which make traversing the area a challenge in normal time, forget about concentrated opposing fire. One has to serve in the area to understand the challenges in mounting a deliberate attack!

 

[Joe Shearer]

PAF not involve in Kargil because IAF have bvr capability in kargil war

True.

And your Army did not have war-fighting capability, which is why it lay low while its officers and men got slaughtered. All it did was to hand out medals based on our certificates after the fighting stopped, and after their generals admitted that it was their men.

Your Navy watched it sitting side by side with your Air Force. Your Navy too did not have BVR capability, apparently. We don't know which of them bought the popcorn.

Pakistan narrative was that it is freedom fighters who are fighting on their own and not being supported by us.
Indian narrative was that it is Pakistan Army which has crossed the border and occupied their land.

So PAF had no role in it. In fact the question should be that if according to India it was Pakistan Army that has occupied their territory then IAF should have crossed the border and attached Pakistani forward bases and other high value targets. But as we all know .. they didnt have the _____ to cross the border .. Oh wait .. sorry .. two Migs did cross .. the rest we all know ..

Apparently you have difficulties with reading, because the entire situation was laid out in easy language which even fanboys can understand. The orders given to our Air Force were not to cross the LOC under any circumstances, and those orders were obeyed, strictly, even with the difficulties involved.

Your narrative and our narrative had nothing to do with it. The Director Operations of your Air Force at the time has written clearly over his own name that it was the Pakistan Army that had crossed the border and occupied our land. So cope with that fact, first.

As for your question, that has already been answered. When our political leadership give orders, those are followed, strictly. I know that you will have difficulty understanding the principle of civilian rule. Ask an older person.

You are again displaying extreme ignorance when you say two MiGs crossed the border. No aircraft crossed the border; one MiG was lost due to engine failure, and the other was shot down by a Stinger missile while looking for the missing aircraft.

You don't seem to know much, if we are to go by your post.

Back again, Windy? Glutton for punishment, aren't you?

What, don't like the taste of your own medicine, get use to it sunshine, In your brilliant mind, if the topic is grounded air force then take a good look at the operational level of your MKIs to understand the term.

The topic, O mighty brain, is grounded Pakistani Air Force during Kargil. Repeat after me, grounded Pakistani Air Force, then Kargil. Might help. Also try sticking your tongue out. I notice some stupid students of mine doing that; it might help the brain cope with a sudden rush of facts.

To seek assistance to fight a country less than a third of your size, obviously you are past the verge of shame i guess.

We bought smart bombs, and that is shameful? Two of them were used, and that is shameful? Try sticking your tongue out and let's see if it helps.

I guess that's why China enters your territory at will and withdraws thinking what a helpless bunch of losers Indian are as a nation....

Allow me to thank you for the entire Indian set of members on PDF for keeping it as your guess and not a quotation from Clausewitz. Or should that be Sun Tzu?

It was a local conflict and all the fighting took place on the Indian side, If PAF was grounded then it should have been a walk over for the IA and IAF....what stopped them attacking targets on the Pakistani side of the border....!!

"If PAF was grounded"? you mean that is still in doubt. Stick your tongue out immediately.

Remember you people even with fake IDs come here to learn.

Quite right. Your people have their pride and self-respect, unlike us. They come with proper IDs and get themselves treated in our hospitals.

Keeping in mind that even then you needed Muktis to assist you, ever wondered how many insurgencies are happening in India today.

If you repeat something like this to a Bangladeshi, he will kick your sad little backside. Like his countrymen in the Mukti Bahini did to your countrymen at that time.

As for insurgencies and how to quote, I notice that your Army is exhausted and takes time to recuperate dealing with your own one-and-a-half insurgencies. We cope; mostly without the Indian Army. It's our policemen dealing with things.

Haha.. Now you resort to marking negative for arguments against you? @Abu Zolfiqar

@Joe Shearer @nair @hellfire

You and @hellfire need to protest this to the moderators immediately. I read the posts and felt embarrassed that someone had misused his powers so blatantly, and in such a situation that he was publicly unable to maintain his arguments.

 

[Hellfire]

@Joe Shearer Our dear ol' first line of nonsense exemplifies why Pakistan Army has always lost all wars!!The simple inability to accept the hard facts.

The joke is on him. He has been exposed as a poor student of war at best .... wonder if he even passed his promotion exams and courses!!! LOL!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer Our dear ol' first line of nonsense exemplifies why Pakistan Army has always lost all wars!!The simple inability to accept the hard facts.

The joke is on him. He has been exposed as a poor student of war at best .... wonder if he even passed his promotion exams and courses!!! LOL!!!

I have serious doubts about him. To see the better side of the Pakistani Army, look at the new member Major Osmani.

 

[nair]

That was pretty harsh... Take it to GHQ immediately

Haha.. Now you resort to marking negative for arguments against you? @Abu Zolfiqar

@Joe Shearer @nair @hellfire

 

[Hellfire]

I have serious doubts about him. To see the better side of the Pakistani Army, look at the new member Major Osmani.

Even I ...! A soldier will never be derogatory about the fallen soldier, irrespective of which country the soldier belongs to.

But now, it shall be fun ..!! he will be called out everytime he posts ........!

That was pretty harsh... Take it to GHQ immediately

That is not harsh .. that is the abject failure of Abu Zolfiqar to be able to respond as a matured person to any one opposing his incorrect statements. He has been consistent in personal attacks, so the level of maturity can be gauged by his posts. His post #232 is a perfect example of his insecurities as a professional ....

and so he earns a new name from me - the first line of nonsense!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

True.

And your Army did not have war-fighting capability, which is why it lay low while its officers and men got slaughtered. All it did was to hand out medals based on our certificates after the fighting stopped, and after their generals admitted that it was their men..

Hi,

You are incorrect---I know a little more than you do---even though I know your background that you are senior ex military.

 

[Windjammer]

Back again, Windy? Glutton for punishment, aren't you?

Fortunately, for at least one of us, my upbringing restricts me to give a likewise reply to the aged and infirm.

The topic, O mighty brain, is grounded Pakistani Air Force during Kargil. Repeat after me, grounded Pakistani Air Force, then Kargil. Might help. Also try sticking your tongue out. I notice some stupid students of mine doing that; it might help the brain cope with a sudden rush of facts.

Although we dared not indulged in such ill mannered acts before our guardians however some students do resort to such when they feel a certain teacher ideally belongs in a circus or something.
So dear teacher help me out here, if your claims of PAF grounded are correct then one wonders, if the story of Fulcrums buzzing Falcons was merely created to keep the spark in Agni Pankh....or maybe the Indian pilots using their Ayurvedic technology secretly visited PAF hangars.

We bought smart bombs, and that is shameful? Two of them were used, and that is shameful? Try sticking your tongue out and let's see if it helps.

So you bought some bombs, loaded them, used two and hey presto the Pakistanis were obliterated, hope you don't swallow your tongue but hell even above technology can't compete with that.

"If PAF was grounded"? you mean that is still in doubt. Stick your tongue out immediately.

To be fair, we never found any trailers outside PAF bases.

Quite right. Your people have their pride and self-respect, unlike us. They come with proper IDs and get themselves treated in our hospitals.

I sincerely hope they count their kidneys afterwards.

If you repeat something like this to a Bangladeshi, he will kick your sad little backside. Like his countrymen in the Mukti Bahini did to your countrymen at that time.

And i always assumed that Pakistanis were generally regarded as healthier compared to their Indian counterparts (No offence to the undernourished Indian backsides) maybe that's the reason those Bangladeshi prefer to kick the Indians elsewhere.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1809/18090220.htm

As for insurgencies and how to quote, I notice that your Army is exhausted and takes time to recuperate dealing with your own one-and-a-half insurgencies. We cope; mostly without the Indian Army. It's our policemen dealing with things.

So after the PAF was grounded, our army is now exhausted, hell, the fatigue should be taking it's tall and the frustrated soldiers should be repeating that Full Metal Jacket scene we often hear from across the border, three in last week alone, but then according to you, it's the Indian police, all the several hundred thousand of them in IOK.
Oh look most of your class is sticking their tongues out. !!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

You are incorrect---I know a little more than you do---even though I know your background that you are senior ex military.

Fair enough.

Which parts were wrong?

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are RIGHT about that -- It was an Intelligence failure

But in our defence ; we took the LAHORE peace process seriously

He has a point.

There should have been much more accountability. The COAS, with his efforts at concealing the extent of the intrusions from the Cabinet at any cost; the GOC-in-C, presiding over such a debacle; the Corps Commander, most guilty of all, and a deceitful SOB; even, to a lesser extent, the Div. commander. Only a poor bloody Brigadier got (wrongly) fingered.

Bastards.

Hi,

You are incorrect---I know a little more than you do---even though I know your background that you are senior ex military.

On a personal point of clarification, I was a very senior executive in military production (we had civilian projects as well), handling some sensitive stuff. The military never allowed us anywhere near their work, and always dismissed my kids as boffins, and me as a boffin-baby-sitter. Most offensive!