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What is the Terminal velocity of a Ballistic Missile Warhead? Mach 17 here.

Scooped trajectory was first and actually most accepted method of dodging an abm by sheer speed... its well recogenised ... and i have never read the objectiin you are making sir...

By this logic ...lofted trajectory is not possible at all?? Is that what u are saying??
I'm not saying that it doesn't works, I only refuted your claim of somehow realizing a scooped up trajectory to hit Delhi from Pakistan in under 3 minutes.
Lofted trajectory is a general term, how lofted are you proposing? As I said, if you push the limits too much, bad things happen.
At depressed trajectory and extremes of it such as DT-100 (Rising to just 100 Km instead of the full 300 in case of S-2 and 690 km in case of S-3) or DT-60 , ballistic trajectory can be flattened enough to cut down times to hit target at the expense of missile needing fat more energy and extra roll maneuvers and deteriorated accuracy.
Same as a Tridet with full carbon fiber body a shaheen with metal body cannot do DT-60 but theoretically can do DT-100.
Oh please, Shaheen series has no comparison to the Trident-II D5 in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio alone. Far more thrust is needed to achieve that, and I assure you, Pakistan is doing the best it can with Shaheen-III right now (I believe you watched the video quite closely).
Excellent image....

But depicts normal ballistic tractory...
What if lines are moved to left ... more height less distance time will reduce according to this graph ...also return is a larger mach number also factor that in
No, this graph is an estimation of the results, not a model. A lofted trajectory will increase time. A depressed trajectory decreases time. Please study projectile motion, for the love of God.
 
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I'm not saying that it doesn't works, I only refuted your claim of somehow realizing a scooped up trajectory to hit Delhi from Pakistan in under 3 minutes.
Lofted trajectory is a general term, how lofted are you proposing? As I said, if you push the limits too much, bad things happen.

Oh please, Shaheen series has no comparison to the Trident-II D5 in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio alone. Far more thrust is needed to achieve that, and I assure you, Pakistan is doing the best it can with Shaheen-III right now (I believe you watched the video quite closely).

No, this graph is an estimation of the results, not a model. A lofted trajectory will increase time. A depressed trajectory decreases time. Please study projectile motion, for the love of God.


I will give 3 min comments guy a kick in his......dont wory
 
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At depressed trajectory and extremes of it such as DT-100 (Rising to just 100 Km instead of the full 300 in case of S-2 and 690 km in case of S-3) or DT-60 , ballistic trajectory can be flattened enough to cut down times to hit target at the expense of missile needing fat more energy and extra roll maneuvers and deteriorated accuracy.
Same as a Tridet with full carbon fiber body a shaheen with metal body cannot do DT-60 but theoretically can do DT-100.
You are needlessly arguing with someone who is overly impressed with Indian missiles and sings songs of praise for them while relentlessly rubbishing whatever Pakistan has got.

I'm not saying that it doesn't works, I only refuted your claim of somehow realizing a scooped up trajectory to hit Delhi from Pakistan in under 3 minutes.
Lofted trajectory is a general term, how lofted are you proposing? As I said, if you push the limits too much, bad things happen.

Oh please, Shaheen series has no comparison to the Trident-II D5 in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio alone. Far more thrust is needed to achieve that, and I assure you, Pakistan is doing the best it can with Shaheen-III right now (I believe you watched the video quite closely).

No, this graph is an estimation of the results, not a model. A lofted trajectory will increase time. A depressed trajectory decreases time. Please study projectile motion, for the love of God.
Oh please....Read my comment completely before replying.
Also stop thinking that Pakistan has nothing better than Scud.
For a 2000 Km range missile , Reaching Delhi at 400 Km is very much possible while flying at depressed trajectory and can lose lots of energy in tackling atmospheric friction on depressed trajectory.
Your inferiority complex about Pakistan is insulting at times.
Or if S-2 is not to be used, even S-1A with 1000 Km range can reach Delhi at depressed trajectory in single digit time , if not just 3 minutes.
 
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By the way indians are using prithvi unitary non separating missile for their target practice...

Equalent missile in pak arsenal is ....... none
 
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You are needlessly arguing with someone who is overly impressed with Indian missiles and sings songs of praise for them while relentlessly rubbishing whatever Pakistan has got.

Oh please....Read my comment completely before replying.
Also stop thinking that Pakistan has nothing better than Scud.
For a 2000 Km range missile , Reaching Delhi at 400 Km is very much possible while flying at depressed trajectory and can lose lots of energy in tackling atmospheric friction on depressed trajectory.
Your inferiority complex about Pakistan is insulting at times.
Or if S-2 is not to be used, even S-1A with 1000 Km range can reach Delhi at depressed trajectory in single digit time , if not just 3 minutes.
Sure, why not, please advise that to Pakistan's becharay scientists and engineers, who couldn't have figured that out without your invaluable analysis. I'm sure they'll take you very seriously and test a system at 'DT-100' (cool imported designation though), only to observe a local 4th of July celebration 10 seconds into the flight.

I suggest you go back to analyzing ship structures.
 
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By the way indians are using prithvi unitary non separating missile for their target practice...

Equalent missile in pak arsenal is ....... none
The Prithvi target vehicle has a very huge radar signature compared to the small warhead used on a S-1A , S-3 and Ababeel-MIRV.
From where Greenpine radar will detect Shaheen / Ababeel warheads to neutralize them? Will be much later than it detects a Prithvi
 
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.So in case you do not agree with the statement that latest indian strategic missiles are not a generation ahead of their pakistani counterparts,then do furnish reasons for the same--preferably with "proofs"!

OK.. so you can spit out a "statement" and than demand "reasons" and "proofs" to nullify it.. Amazing scientific methodology.. is it Indian or universal?
 
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Do you have any evidence to support your claim? If you are to be believed, why did Pakistan introduced fixed fins on Shaheen-I v2? Why would anyone want to step down from a much more advanced system?

Abdali is still in development. Besides it is a tactical system, and doesn't has separable RV. Actually it is finding difficulty in being placed in Pakistan's present doctrine, as the combination of Nasr and Ghaznavi already provide similar capabilities.

ABM evasion doesn't just happens in the terminal stages (inside atmosphere). India's PDV is exo-atmospheric, so the Shaheen series is theoretically capable of evasive maneuvers outside the atmosphere until before re-entry.
Shaheen-2 rises to same apogee as a Ghauri did in 1998 but reaches double the range , so there is the evidece of Pakistan's work on depressed trajectory.
The flight time of Ghauri back 1998 was just 9 minutes 58 seconds for a range of 1100 Km.

The Ghauri–I was first test fired at 7:25hrs on 6 April 1998 from the Tilla Test Range near Malute, Jhelum Cantt which is about 76mi (122.31km) south of the Islamabad.[15] It was fired from a transporter erector launcher and traveled 1,100 km (680 mi) in a flight lasting 9 minutes and 58 seconds.[16] It climbed to a height of 350km before turning in the direction of its planned impact area in the desert of Balochistan where it hit the designated target at 7:33hrs.

A much faster Shaheen-1 or Shaheen1A will take much shorter time than 9:58 to reach Delhi at a range of just 400 kilometers.
 
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Hi,
Aerodynamic manoeuvre can be done between 100-60 km above ground where air is thin enough not to cause too much mechanical or thermal stress, and RV is fast enough to make use of very thin air.

You are confusing MARV with HGV or hypersonic glided vehicle

HGV is very difficult. But MARV isn't. Pershing missile had it in 70s and so did many soviet and Chinese missiles.
Hi @Shaheen missile
Lets delve into this issue of "maneuvering". First of all,there isnt any atmosphere to speak of above 60-70kms altitude.So RV wont exhibit any "aerodynamic maneuvering". Lets just for a second try to find out as to "why" we want a maneuvering warhead in the first place?.The reasons might include-
1)To evade interceptor
2)To confuse the tracking radar --I mean making the prediction of coordinates for firing solution more difficult.
3)To compensate for any gravitational anamolies RV faces while in elliptical free fall(after burnout point).

Lets start with #1:
Once the burnout point has been reached,and as RV crosses this point,it is traveling in an "elliptical" orbit--neither circular nor parabolic or what not.The kind of orbit is determined by the mission profile,range we want to cover etc etc.This orbit again is rendered by the angle at burnout and the speed at burnout.Both of them determine the apogee that a RV will attain--a higher apogee results in higher downrange.
Now if lets say,in some hypothetical universe shaheen or Agni-1/2 RV had active RF seeker,and they were able to detect the interceptor coming in itz path.It takes an evasive maneuver.This engagement roughly takes place when the RV has well past the apogee and is at altitudes of ~150km(still no atmosphere).Now you might ask,why is atmoshphere important? Well,as you might know control commands to RV is given in the form of short couples--to pitch and and yaw it--in order to change the trajectory.Now difference between performing this pitching and yawing in space and in atmosphere is what is known as "dynamic damping"--which is dependent on the effective area--in case of space you dont get any damping whereas in atmosphere there is dynamic damping. It is beautifully captured in the mathematical form by what are known as "damping derivatives". Ok now coming back to the topic,once the pitching and yawing command has been issued(at lets say 155kms) in order to evade the interceptor,the RV now is essentially falling on an altered ellipse(with changed eccentricity and semi-major axis)--and if it continues on this trajectory--it will surely miss the target.Now the only thing left to do is to come back to the original trajectory so as to not miss the target. These steps are incredibly complex as these have to be performed "before"-- mark the word "before" RV gets into atmosphere. What I am trying to say is the RV has got only 13-14 seconds(travelling at 18Machs) to come back on right trajectory so as to not miss the target. Because once the atmosphere starts,RV will have to encounter one more force and that is Aerodynamic forces! When you write force-balance equations, aerodynamic forces are absent in space and hence a neater differential eqn results.
You see,to implement all of what I have written above,you would essentially need a very very tight control system with latency figures in extremely tight tolerances. For god sake,you dont even know if shaheens or even ababeel uses a FOG or RLG based gyro.
My main intention here is to point out that changing trajectories in a matter of 13-14 seconds is extremely difficult if not downright impossible.And please just because US had this tech in 80s,doesnt mean pakistan or even India has it now.There are a lot of things that US have had since probably mid 60s that pakistan is nowhere close to getting--semi cryogenic engines being one of them!So,please get real!

OK.. so you can spit out a "statement" and than demand "reasons" and "proofs" to nullify it.. Amazing scientific methodology.. is it Indian or universal?
@ghazi768
Hi,I gave out "scientific reasons" as to why one is superior to another.In case you want "proof" I would be much more happy to post plethora of literature here.But alas,I know research papers and patents are of no use to majority of pakistanis(barring a few exceptions) here. Now if you wish to refute it--as one gentleman above did with his "layman analysis",then kindly furnish "proofs".I hope you get what I am saying.
 
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This guy is stuck in atmosphere and control surfaces... has no idea about post separation boost systems ... rvs can manouver at any time after boost phase.... within or without atmosphere...absolutely without any issue....but since indians are GENERATIoNS AHEAD ... their rvs follow simple ballistic path.....GENERATION AHEAD
 
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@Mrc
Did I even say it cant maneuver?I merely said it will be million times more difficult to maneuver in atmosphere than in alt above 70kms.Now please be frank and tell me your qualifications and experience with these things--dont be embarrassed .because I believe I have wasted too much of my time on your trolls.You have failed to elaborate even single of your points based on credible literature in structured manner.

has no idea about post separation boost systems
Oh what an alien term. What exactly do you know about it my friend?
 
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Hi @Shaheen missile
Lets delve into this issue of "maneuvering". First of all,there isnt any atmosphere to speak of above 60-70kms altitude.So RV wont exhibit any "aerodynamic maneuvering". Lets just for a second try to find out as to "why" we want a maneuvering warhead in the first place?.The reasons might include-
1)To evade interceptor
2)To confuse the tracking radar --I mean making the prediction of coordinates for firing solution more difficult.
3)To compensate for any gravitational anamolies RV faces while in elliptical free fall(after burnout point).

Lets start with #1:
Once the burnout point has been reached,and as RV crosses this point,it is traveling in an "elliptical" orbit--neither circular nor parabolic or what not.The kind of orbit is determined by the mission profile,range we want to cover etc etc.This orbit again is rendered by the angle at burnout and the speed at burnout.Both of them determine the apogee that a RV will attain--a higher apogee results in higher downrange.
Now if lets say,in some hypothetical universe shaheen or Agni-1/2 RV had active RF seeker,and they were able to detect the interceptor coming in itz path.It takes an evasive maneuver.This engagement roughly takes place when the RV has well past the apogee and is at altitudes of ~150km(still no atmosphere).Now you might ask,why is atmoshphere important? Well,as you might know control commands to RV is given in the form of short couples--to pitch and and yaw it--in order to change the trajectory.Now difference between performing this pitching and yawing in space and in atmosphere is what is known as "dynamic damping"--which is dependent on the effective area--in case of space you dont get any damping whereas in atmosphere there is dynamic damping. It is beautifully captured in the mathematical form by what are known as "damping derivatives". Ok now coming back to the topic,once the pitching and yawing command has been issued(at lets say 155kms) in order to evade the interceptor,the RV now is essentially falling on an altered ellipse(with changed eccentricity and semi-major axis)--and if it continues on this trajectory--it will surely miss the target.Now the only thing left to do is to come back to the original trajectory so as to not miss the target. These steps are incredibly complex as these have to be performed "before"-- mark the word "before" RV gets into atmosphere. What I am trying to say is the RV has got only 13-14 seconds(travelling at 18Machs) to come back on right trajectory so as to not miss the target. Because once the atmosphere starts,RV will have to encounter one more force and that is Aerodynamic forces! When you write force-balance equations, aerodynamic forces are absent in space and hence a neater differential eqn results.
You see,to implement all of what I have written above,you would essentially need a very very tight control system with latency figures in extremely tight tolerances. For god sake,you dont even know if shaheens or even ababeel uses a FOG or RLG based gyro.
My main intention here is to point out that changing trajectories in a matter of 13-14 seconds is extremely difficult if not downright impossible.And please just because US had this tech in 80s,doesnt mean pakistan or even India has it now.There are a lot of things that US have had since probably mid 60s that pakistan is nowhere close to getting--semi cryogenic engines being one of them!So,please get real!


@ghazi768
Hi,I gave out "scientific reasons" as to why one is superior to another.In case you want "proof" I would be much more happy to post plethora of literature here.But alas,I know research papers and patents are of no use to majority of pakistanis(barring a few exceptions) here. Now if you wish to refute it--as one gentleman above did with his "layman analysis",then kindly furnish "proofs".I hope you get what I am saying.
Er....... What?
No idea what you wrote here .
Word of advice. We don't come to a public internet forum to write some PHD thesis on aerodynamics or systems engineering. We only come here in our leisure time as hobby.
So if you want to continue with differential equations, you are better suited in some MIT students forum.
You are wasting your time in writing long comments so complicated that nobody will understand them.
Making your comments simple for average joe , will help .

From the little I could understand. Pakistan uses Ring laser gyroscopes as mentioned by Dr. A.Q.Khan back in the early 2000. Myself I am.from the era of Mechanical gyroscope and listening to the whining of 11000 rpm disk , when Sperry was still a company.
 
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From the little I could understand. Pakistan uses Ring laser gyroscopes as mentioned by Dr. A.Q.Khan back in the early 2000. Myself I am.from the era of Mechanical gyroscope and listening to the whining of 11000 rpm disk , when Sperry was still a company.
Hi @Shaheen
This is news to me! I know itz a cliche,but can you provide credible proof for the same.And which agency in pakistan has expertise to manufacture FOG or RLG based gyros.What is the drift figure like? Because these details of indian designed FOG and RLGs are freely available on net.Kindly do the needful and at least mention the lab which designed such a gyro--obviously with proof! THanks in advance!
 
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@Mrc
Did I even say it cant maneuver?I merely said it will be million times more difficult to maneuver in atmosphere than in alt above 70kms.Now please be frank and tell me your qualifications and experience with these things--dont be embarrassed .because I believe I have wasted too much of my time on your trolls.You have failed to elaborate even single of your points based on credible literature in structured manner.


Oh what an alien term. What exactly do you know about it my friend?


Iranians hit a moving sea target with a ballistic missile last week.... confirmed by non iranian sources... df 21d has been maneuvering within and without atmosphere for a decade...

A tea seller reading regular news paper can have better understanding than generations ahead experts here ..

U google few terms and think u are generation ahead of rest of the world...

Please be aware no scientist in world has ever challenged df 21d or recent iranian test... they question kill chain but no... i repeat no real scientist has ever said its not possible while saying he is generations ahead of... rest...

I would say to some....... you are 2 generations ahead than rest

Did I even say it cant maneuver?I merely said it will be million times more difficult to maneuver in atmosphere than in alt above 70kms.Now please be frank and tell me your quali


Its actually reverse... iranians can manouver only inside atmosphere not out side using control surfaces...

North koreabs are also working on within atmosphere one as well... may even have tested... dont wory u are 2 generations ahead... science .. tach advancements are bull crap... if u can just lie and make facts out of thin air... thats better
 
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df 21d has been maneuvering within and without atmosphere for a decade...
@Mrc
Now too much hot air has been let out,kindly do the justice to prove it based on credible test firing of df-21 where it actually hit a moving target out at sea and by moving target I mean target moving at 52kmph. Please Now dont waste my time with your jibberish and un-educated remarks--based on gossips,internet forums--go and first get a degree in aerospace.

U google few terms and think u are generation ahead of rest of the world...
Unlike you I have worked/currently working on couple of things that I write here. You have no clue what I know my friend,It will be better you keep it that way and engage with "blog-educated" nationalists like yourself where they will take you seriously.
As for the iranian test--i take them with pinch of salt. kindly prove the df-21 test wherein it actually hit a moving target.I am waiting.And I bloody want a CREDIBLE evidence!
 
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