What if PAF had no Thunder?

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Now coming to think about it, what if PAF didn't opt for JF-17 Thunder? New F-16s or even an upgrade on the original 32 F-16s were no where in sight.

Really glad how it played out and how effective JF-17 Thunder has been so far not just helping Pakistan Air Force cover the technology gap but maintenance too, looking at the current situation of the economy.

Any idea what would PAF be like, if the PAF didn't opt for JF-17 Thunder?

Mirage 2000?

@TaimiKhan @blain2 @fatman17

Options would have been limited to perhaps instead getting the 18 other F16 C/D block 50 or instead opting for Rafale or Gripen; those were being looked at, before it was decided to go ahead with Thunder program


Thunder program just made so much sense

"more for less" + no risk of embargo or politics to get in the way -

 

[Abingdonboy]

Look at the scenario I painted there, this was what would have been planned in the absence of the JF-17, this was back when we had good growth, political stability, little insurgency issues, no such energy crisis, great relations with the US, named a prominent ally (Major non-NATO ally), the west had once again opened it's doors to us. PAF had planned to procure F-16's in good numbers and showed interest, very real interest in the J-10.

But PAF plan their purchases based on payments to be made later. It's very unfortunate that Pakistan went from good to hell in a few years.

Take my projection how you will, the F-16 and maybe later the J-10 is what you would have got, that is almost non-negotiable. On the subject of money we can argue the numbers of these aircraft.

Fair enough sir. Yes, in the context of the early 2000s these were legitimate options for the PAF, the issue of money would crop up by 2007/8 and then now where the PAF is in no real postion for making any large orders for anything.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Fair enough sir. Yes, in the context of the early 2000s these were legitimate options for the PAF, the issue of money would crop up by 2007/8 and then now where the PAF is in no real postion for making any large orders for anything.

True, but the JF-17 would have been the ideal choice regardless.
I can't overstate how much of a God given blessing the JF-17 is.

 

[Abingdonboy]

True, but the JF-17 would have been the ideal choice regardless.
I can't overstate how much of a God given blessing the JF-17 is.

Agreed, for the PAF, the Thunder is just what it needs and no other real option is there for the PAF anymore. If only the PAF had the funds to fully develop the JF-17 earlier ie speeding up blk.2 and blk.3 versions. 
+

@Jungibaaz something else that intrigues me is allocation of defence spending. Arguably the PAF and more so the PN are the "ugly sisters" who receive little attention or funding when compared to the PA.Now what interests me is this- at time when, for some reason, India has switched to pouring enormous capital accusation funds:

IAF to procure equipment, platforms worth $150 bn

The Pakistan military, with it's India-centric ethos hasn't responded in kind.


Similar things could be said for the PN vs IN comparison as the IN today enjoys the largest capital acquisitions expenditure to relative size ratio of any of the three military arms in India and yet the PN is languishing with almost zero funding to procure anything of note.

 

[Beast]

You may be right, but China is behind in tech due to embargoes from west, therefore Pakistan must not put its eggs in one basket too. Depending too much on China is not good thing, and S. Korea is way advance in many areas but due to their reasons they don't use their tech for defense purpose same like Japan. Some of which you mentioned too.

Moreover, there were news that UAE and KSA are now developing some advance systems of avionics, can those be good for our JF-17s?

You must be high in drugs, my friend? Or becos, you used Samsung S4 handphone is good which literally means SK technology is good in defense too? Do you know that South Korea now still struggle to make a rocket that can send a decent payload of satelite to space?

As Luftwafte has already pointed out. Learning from the master (China) who has many years of making military aviation hardware is a better choice rather than a small boy(south korea) who just learn walking. You must have feed with too many western or India propaganda that China military technology is still backward and not up to date? Do you know China is now making its own AESA AWACS and AESA destroyer. The world fastest super computer comes from China of Tianhe -2.

Do you know recently Indonessia wanted to cancel the joint venture of KFX after finalise design is introduced? Its design is not even good enough to match JF-17...

 

[DarkElf]

Isn't that KFX-E? That's not the finalized designed. AFAIK that's KAI propose plan for worst case scenario in case if Indonesia bail out and Korea must go alone.

So far both country still waiting for election in 2014 and waiting the new president decision before continue the KFX.

Imo although this thread is not good place to discuss it, i think FA-50 and used F-16 are the only JF-17 competitor for export because of similar price range and maintenance cost. But as usual in this kind of high profile sales, politic trump every minor detail.

 

[Beast]

Isn't that KFX-E? That's not the finalized designed. AFAIK that's KAI propose plan for worst case scenario in case if Indonesia bail out and Korea must go alone.

So far both country still waiting for election in 2014 and waiting the new president decision before continue the KFX.

Imo although this thread is not good place to discuss it, i think FA-50 and used F-16 are the only JF-17 competitor for export because of similar price range and maintenance cost. But as usual in this kind of high profile sales, politic trump every minor detail.

South Korea has the potential to be powerhouse in aviation but that will take sometimes, bump and hipcups before they are capable of some design. I heard they wanted to go the canard direction but lacking the experience in writing the FBW of this type hamper their way and they decided to play safe and go the coventional layout.

Pakistan who wanted to further their aviation industry shall learn from establish powerhouse and not tag with the greenhorn. A blind lead another blind will not go far. Those who claimed Pakistan shall not put all eggs in one and think they shall not depend solely on China are making a big mistake. Which option shall they choose? American, Russian or Britain/Europe? Pakistan do not have much option. Going with China puts Pakistan aviation on the right track.

 

[SQ8]

Do you know recently Indonessia wanted to cancel the joint venture of KFX after finalise design is introduced? Its design is not even good enough to match JF-17...

While there are several fallacies with that design in regards to all aspect stealth.. it will have a RCS perhaps slightly lower than that of the Eurofighter. That does not take the South Koreans out of the capability picture. They have fairly good avionics systems(of which some are in the JF-17) and a well built manufacturing base.
So I suggest you get out of your jingoistic rant and start posting some sense. The Chinese aviation industry operates on a different scale and design concept as the South Koreans do. That being said the South koreans licence manufacture the F-16 and are authorized for software modifications to the system.
Moreover, the PAF preferred Korean ECM systems to those offered by China(who later wanted to copy the tech) as they offered better threat protection.

 

[Beast]

While there are several fallacies with that design in regards to all aspect stealth.. it will have a RCS perhaps slightly lower than that of the Eurofighter. That does not take the South Koreans out of the capability picture. They have fairly good avionics systems(of which some are in the JF-17) and a well built manufacturing base.
So I suggest you get out of your jingoistic rant and start posting some sense. The Chinese aviation industry operates on a different scale and design concept as the South Koreans do. That being said the South koreans licence manufacture the F-16 and are authorized for software modifications to the system.
Moreover, the PAF preferred Korean ECM systems to those offered by China(who later wanted to copy the tech) as they offered better threat protection.

Rather than accusing me of jingoistic rant , you shall take out more concrete effort to back your words. The little RCS reduction has massive trade off of function capabilities of agility and performance when compare to Euro fighter. In fact, I will not even rate its aerodynamic superior than JF-17. The only way it can beat JF-17 aero performance is by mounting a far superior thrust to weight ratio engine compare to JF-17. But this has nothing to do with JF-17 basic structural design.

And can you explain why the initial canard KFX designed switch to conventional tail fin layout? The inexperienced and insufficient expertise in aeronautical of SK forces them to go more traditional way which is sensible.

I never knew about the ECM and even attempt by China wanted to copy the SK ECM. Can you back your allegation with facts? And the very fact, even the radar is Israel for F/A-50 show nothing of Korea able to rise to the occasion. Of cos, it will be unfair to compare a young and new SK aviation to pit against long establish China aviation. I recognise SK do have the potential but not now challenging the traditional powerhouse. Their aviation still need large number of expertise help and advise from US to make the project possible.

Just like their striving naval industry. But much of the sub system on Sejong_the_Great is backing heavily on American help like Aegis system, MK41 VLS and GE LM2500 propulsion to make it happen.

And finally, it is a fact, Indonesian are currently unhappy and not confident of the joint KFX project. Things do not look good at the moment.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

The Gripen or second hand F-16s.

J-10: Different class of aircraft
Rafale: lol
M2K: lol, even if the Gulf countries were allowed by France to resell their aircraft, it would need MRO facilities, training etc which they wouldn't be providing. (hint Indian MMRCA)
Mirage3: Production line closed

All in all, the JF-17 was a great choice for the PAF, it provides it with capabilities it hasn't had before (indigenous production) while remaining cheap enough for their budget. While it's not going to be fulfilling any strike roles against MKIs, Rafales, FGFAs, PAK FAs, MiG29UPG, 21Bis, LCAs MkI/MkII or M2009s, it'll free up the F-16s and J-10s from having to fulfill point defense roles.

Hope you know PAF was offered Rafaels in 2004-5.. and they planned to buy around 36... but the plan stalled after the major earth quake in kashmir..

 

[SQ8]

Rather than accusing me of jingoistic rant , you shall take out more concrete effort to back your words. The little RCS reduction has massive trade off of function capabilities of agility and performance when compare to Euro fighter. In fact, I will not even rate its aerodynamic superior than JF-17. The only way it can beat JF-17 aero performance is by mounting a far superior thrust to weight ratio engine compare to JF-17. But this has nothing to do with JF-17 basic structural design.

And can you explain why the initial canard KFX designed switch to conventional tail fin layout? The inexperienced and insufficient expertise in aeronautical of SK forces them to go more traditional way which is sensible.

I never knew about the ECM and even attempt by China wanted to copy the SK ECM. Can you back your allegation with facts?

The same way multiple iterations were considered before the final JSF concept. Not sure what you are trying to prove there. As I said before, half your post is jingoistic gibberish before you come back to normal. The SK industry does take a lot of help where it is possible, just as the Chinese industry does from various sources when it needs to.
Russian Roots Revealed In China's Z-10

[Column] US control over South Korean arms business : Editorial : Home
Is South Korea Stealing U.S. Weapons Technologies?

Something did come through in-spite of the US efforts. And the Chinese were very interested in what it was.

 

[Beast]

The same way multiple iterations were considered before the final JSF concept. Not sure what you are trying to prove there. As I said before, half your post is jingoistic gibberish before you come back to normal. The SK industry does take a lot of help where it is possible, just as the Chinese industry does from various sources when it needs to.
Russian Roots Revealed In China's Z-10

[Column] US control over South Korean arms business : Editorial : Home
Is South Korea Stealing U.S. Weapons Technologies?

Something did come through in-spite of the US efforts. And the Chinese were very interested in what it was.

Fancy you quote an incomplete jane article about WZ-10 and even quote free repuplic source for backing your facts?

First let me complete the article of janes about WZ-10.

After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.

Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military."

First of all he claim the customer wanted this collaboration to remained secret and suddenly he let the cats out of bag? So he took Chinese money and suddenly break the promise? Have you ever question this point?

And its very clear the whole development of WZ-10 other than the design was totally carry out by Chinese themselves with no outside help that included the engine, combat system, ATGM missiles and system which is 100% Chinese made.

Trying to compare to SK situation to Chinese side is totally out of point. US too uses Italian Oto Melara 76mm gun, does it show US dependant on foreign help too? SK without US help can never complete the KFX project.

Finally, free republic is notorious anti-Chinese source and you click onto their website and see their discussion and topic . They are 100% negative towards the Chinese. And the jammer you talk about in fact nothing demonstrated of SK industry capability as the jammer is of US technology build by SK. The credibility of your source is controversial.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

All in all, the Thunder was a good buy by a cash-strapped nation such as Pakistan. Any other options would involve buying less (quantity) on more (quality).

in an ideal world the JF-17 isn't the plane any fighter jock would want to go to war with but it is certainly better than what it replaces (Mirage/F-7).

lmao... i cracked hard at this moronic post..

 

[kbd-raaf]

Hope you know PAF was offered Rafaels in 2004-5.. and they planned to buy around 36... but the plan stalled after the major earth quake in kashmir..

That's interesting, considering 2004-5 was when the MMRCA contract was tendered (albeit with the M2k5). Something from Dassault/PAF/GoP, thanks.

 

[Storm Force]

Theres nothing wrong with this post

in an ideal world the JF-17 isn't the plane any fighter jock would want to go to war with but it is certainly better than what it replaces (Mirage/F-7).

For PAF is a great way to modernise to a large BVR fleet and to upgrade in the future to a even more potent low cost MR fighter.

But the poster is right you will not win a war with this plane not TODAY and definitely not in THE NEAR future.

The THUNDERS would need support of true bigger more potent Multi role platforms be it

F16/52
J10
Dassult Rafale/Typhoon

I have intentionaly left out J31 has it will not avaiable for 1.5 decades yet. for export..

Those 3 planes listed ARE GAME changers. real multiplers which strike fear into the opponent

The THUNDERS specs at this moment do not acheive this notion.