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What if Britain Never Conquered India?

The usage of the a single term for South Asia vs Europe has more to do with the lack of a detailed understanding of the complexity of the region. You can't used flawed/misinterpreted descriptions to justify a flawed understanding of the region.

Was South Asia ruled through conquest and force by various empires? Yes

Was it, at various points in history, an amalgamation of Princely States, Kingdoms, empires, vassal states etc? Yes

Did it have distinct geographical regions with unique cultures, languages (and after Islam) religious identities? Yes.

So on what empirical basis can you claim it had an identity as a single nation-State any more than the Greek, Roman, Mongolian, Persian, Arab, British Empires can claim to be a 'single nation-state'?

greek city states were still called greek, why? the city states were an amalgamation of several city states and were never united.

the reason is quite simple, cultural cohesion, sanskrit was used in india as a classical literary language , the indian texts denote those people who were not from india are mlecchas or foreigners, the indians themselves never regarded themselves as mlecchas. the cuisine is similar, the culture for instance, dances, traditions are also similar, the ancient texts such as natyashastra classify indian dances into southern, eastern, western central etc, they never listed any dance from the middle east, central asia for instance. the classical indian music follows the same root, the indian cuisine is also similar, follows the same pattern for instance making curries, the pan baked bread or chapati is almost universal in indian subcontinent, biryani etc, paratha is also universal, the halwas like sujji halwa is known in the entire subcontinent. The Indian empires strived to kicked out foreign rule in india for instance tipu sultan declared that he will not sit on his expensive throne until he pushes the british completely away from india, the marathas and sikhs united to push out durrani rule, ranjeet sikh wished to donate kohenoor diamond to a temple in orissa/pur etc

regards
 
simple.we would have became Spanish or French or Dutch speaking people.or maybe Russian.that would have so cool.sub continent was a magnet for invaders.so eventually along the line someone would have came and slughtered us.
 
simple.we would have became Spanish or French or Dutch speaking people.or maybe Russian.that would have so cool.sub continent was a magnet for invaders.so eventually along the line someone would have came and slughtered us.

This is pure BS, every nation in the world have been invaded

regards

Good realization , now stop being ignorant and keep insisting on entity which never existed.

i have presented so many historical facts and references, the same has not been reciprocated by people pushing their own theory, so are only making assumptions and more assumptions. Where is your proof of your inference?

regards
 
im refering to a geopolitical enetity called india, which when not under one rule was still considered one single entity politically, and several times united under one rule,
I'm not disputing that it was forcibly held together at several times, just as Britain was under the Romans or the Normans. But even today, if you suggest the Welsh and the Cornish and the Scots are the same geopolitical entity.... well try it and see. Indeed, Britain is dependent on several centres of devolution in terms of geopolitics in order to survive as a united nation.

When was India any different except when under some imperial yoke?

"Ambhi ascended to throne of Takshasila after his father Ambhiraj.[4]He sent an embassy to Alexander along with presents consisting of 200 Talents of silver, 3,000 fat oxen, 10,000 sheep or more, 30 elephants and a force of 700 horsemen and offered for surrender.[4]He appears to have been on hostile terms with his neighbour, Porus, who held the territories east of the Hydaspes.[5][6]"



The Mauryans whom you refer to themselves had to depose the Nandas violently. Chandragupta had to later war against the Greek vassals in the west to subdue them.

The Aryans themselves were invaders from central Asia who spread aggressively across India in ancient times well before chronicled history, ravaging established cultures as they went. In fact, some believe the Aryan tribe destroyed the IVC, which would be ironic since bhakts constantly imply some perpetual victimhood of Hindus at the hands of invaders - but that's another thread.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_battles

This list mentions numerous INTERNALLY warring factions but no united Indian nation at war against an external threat until possibly the Ghurid invasion. Even then, it wasn't all of India vs the Ghurids, just as Alexander quite easily allied with some "Indians" against other "Indians" - they never regarded themselves as feuding members of a single house to begin with. All these tribes warred with and against each other.

Why did the marathas fight with the British against Tipu? Simply because they never once considered Tipu was an "Indian" like they were "Indian". Both were sons of coterminous Indian soil but never regarded each other as "Indians like them".

There's simply no eternal and united nation of Hindustan. To suggest otherwise is a deception that Chanakya himself would be proud of.

These Indian empires you refer to don't even align with or unify the whole subcontinent geographically and this wasn't the case until the British brought these warring tribes together under the artificial construct of the Raj.

Even still... Even still, it depended on powerful Nizams, chieftains etc and local vassalised but disparate and independent city states to remain peaceful and arbitrarily unified.

You present some great facts and knowledge and it's informative reading your threads. Yet you clearly have an overarching narrative in your mind, which you try to push onto the reader. That narrative - which serves hindutva fantasies of some eternal saffron Reich like no hindutva ever could - just doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

I'm no historian like you so please do explain if you strongly feel otherwise as I would like to see this evidence of "India" as a willingly united single nation prior to 1947.
 
greek city states were still called greek, why? the city states were an amalgamation of several city states and were never united.
But Greece WAS an alliance of city states that willingly came together to fend off the Persians. As soon as you understand Greek history a bit more in depth, it is evident that they were rivals as individual states. Nevertheless, they united against the Persians almost always.

Two powerful empires during the colonial era could theoretically have resisted the British in the same way. When did the marathas unite with tipu against the British? When did one bunch of supposed "Indians" ally with another bunch of supposed "Indians" against the completely alien white skinned horse riders? It never happened. Powerful factions in the subcontinent vied against each other for dominance and never regarded one another as part of a single union. They were so competitive that they gladly allied with colonial powers to further their local agendas.

Apart from serving as occasional mercenaries, when did mysoreans and marathas - potentially a game changing alliance by the way - ever come together against the Brits?
 
the specific breed of hindu nationalists who also say taj mahal was made by hindus in 1000 AD




im refering to a geopolitical enetity called india, which when not under one rule was still considered one single entity politically, and several times united under one rule, and even when it wasnt united, the kingdoms strived to unite it, like harsha, tipu sultan, chalukya etc.

A mojor example of that entity is arthashastra which was written in north or eastern india but it was discovered from southern india, the state and bereaucratic structure was also probably the same with few differences.

regards

So?
It was called india as geographical expression thats it.
It was referred to as india because it was clearly demarcated from the rest. That is why its called subcontinent.

Its like calling balkans as balkan country because of balkan mountains. many nations languages religions reside there but balkans is not a country, their political union became irrelevant as it was always by force.

How would any other outsider describe this land?
 
Maratha domination. If not for Maratha defeat at third battle of Panipet, a power vaccum could have never arisen in the North, leading to birth of Sikh empire.
At the same time, Marathas were so divided, it's also possible they would led Indian People on civil war. Not to forget late Marathas were highly casteist.
It's possible South India would have been under Nizam's, Kingdom of Mysore and Travancore empires jusisdiction. It's also possible the Marathas would have conquered them. But at the end of the day would have led to civil war sooner or later. Even if India had been unified one way or other by some power center, they would have led India into world wars planning for some glorious triloga chakravarthi title.

Bengal under the Nawab, half of Pakistan under Afghanistan, Iran and Oman. Other half under Marathas.
 
In that case, there would have been many 'Mini Afghanistan' and 'Cambodia' with Russian as the second language.
 
Maratha domination. If not for Maratha defeat at third battle of Panipet, a power vaccum could have never arisen in the North, leading to birth of Sikh empire.
At the same time, Marathas were so divided, it's also possible they would led Indian People on civil war. Not to forget late Marathas were highly casteist.
It's possible South India would have been under Nizam's, Kingdom of Mysore and Travancore empires jusisdiction. It's also possible the Marathas would have conquered them. But at the end of the day would have led to civil war sooner or later. Even if India had been unified one way or other by some power center, they would have led India into world wars planning for some glorious triloga chakravarthi title.

Bengal under the Nawab, half of Pakistan under Afghanistan, Iran and Oman. Other half under Marathas.
I agree - the Indian subcontinent is too diverse to be ruled by an autocratic regime. The separation of East Pakistan after being disenfranchised by West Pakistan in the elections points to the same, and prior to that, the creation of both Pakistan and India in 1947.

Cultural, linguistic and religious nationalism all play a role in the identity of the myriad communities that call this region home, and no emperor, Shah or Sultan would have been able to paper over those differences in the long run without force and, eventually, civil conflicts.
 
I agree - the Indian subcontinent is too diverse to be ruled by an autocratic regime. The separation of East Pakistan after being disenfranchised by West Pakistan in the elections points to the same, and prior to that, the creation of both Pakistan and India in 1947.

Cultural, linguistic and religious nationalism all play a role in the identity of the myriad communities that call this region home, and no emperor, Shah or Sultan would have been able to paper over those differences in the long run without force and, eventually, civil conflicts.

Yes and no. Cultural and linguistic difference play a role in 20th century, but was never a factor in 17-18th century. Otherwise you wouldn't see Sikhs joining British in swells just so soon after the Sikh empire dissolved. Those times it's personal ego was the one which worked people to civil wars. People, generals were effectively mercenaries who fought for any power for money. There was no loyalty among their subjects toward their ruler like the British had for their monarch in those days.

Marathas became so big in so short span of time, they effectively ceded regions to governors without a strong central figure. Eventually they began to fight among themselves on who to control the king and started fighting among themselves. So imagine that scale to whole of Indian subcontinent divided into fiefdoms of Maratha generals fighting a war everytime a old king dies. They also went to war among themselves. Bengali Hindus hated them. Jats and Gujjars didnt like them. After all the talk of Hindavi swarajya they didn't integrate with people of hindavis.
All the while even Muslims weren't United except for the region of Hind till they became a minority power. When circumstances forced, they got united and fought together. Otherwise they didn't.
In modern days, autocracy wouldn't work. Someone rightfully pointed out a few days back, India and Pakistan was more like US and Canada till 1955 when generals captured power in W Pakistan and started demonizing one side to gain acceptable. If not for 1965 war, thing might have been very different. Democracy for all its flaws, is the way to go in the subcontinent.
 
simple.we would have became Spanish or French or Dutch speaking people.or maybe Russian.that would have so cool.sub continent was a magnet for invaders.so eventually along the line someone would have came and slughtered us.

In that case, there would have been many 'Mini Afghanistan' and 'Cambodia' with Russian as the second language.

Were the Russians interested in the Sub-continent beyond Afghanistan ??
 
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