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What happens now with China's industrial ambitions?

How do you think China will react ?

  • Back off from the aggressive moves on multiple fronts for now and bid their time?

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Realize they need developed nations as partners, and work towards consensus building?

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • Stick to the current aggressive strategy and a win- at- all cost approach?

    Votes: 7 70.0%

  • Total voters
    10
How much in loans did the US give Pakistan, and at what rate? How much of it did Pakistan have to pay back?
How much Aid or Military subsidy did the US give you, and how much aid has china provided Pakistan?
I have provided the answers. If you don't like them I cant help ou out. For actual absolute numbers, right now I dont have time as it is a significantly long process to extract but bottomline is while China is giving loan directly for the production facilities as well as equity investments. USA use IMF for the same and that too for meeting the default and not for capacity building.

For example we have multiple projects for dam construction with China but taking a loan from World Bank for Dam is really difficult and comes with alot of ifs and buts.
 
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I have provided the answers. If you don't like them I cant help ou out. For actual absolute numbers, right now I dont have time as it is a significantly long process to extract but bottomline is while China is giving loan directly for the production facilities as well as equity investments. USA use IMF for the same and that too for meeting the default and not for capacity building.

For example we have multiple projects for dam construction with China but taking a loan from World Bank for Dam is really difficult and comes with alot of ifs and buts.

I asked about direct assistance. You provided your opinion about the IMF, a body where several wealthier countries contribute towards it to help countries in bad financial shape. Especially those countries that can't get loans in the open market or at affordable rates. That is why Pakistan looked for loans elsewhere before coming back to the IMF. Nobody forces you to go to the IMF. The US has influence but does not own that body.

China will give you a loan at very high-interest rates, and if you struggle with payment, it will tack on more interest, high penalties. Eventually, when it becomes difficult to pay because the loan has ballooned, China will ask you to give them total access to your sovereign land for 40/50/100 years.

IMF offers low-interest rates, and if you struggle to pay back, it still works with to get back in track, and sometimes forgives a portion of the loan.

If you think structural changes requested by IMF or World bank to help a country get out financial trouble is terrible, and you prefer to pay high-interest amounts and risk having to sell your land. You have that choice.
 
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China will give you a loan at very high-interest rates, and if you struggle with payment, it will tack on more interest, high penalties. Eventually, when it becomes difficult to pay because the loan has ballooned, China will ask you to give them total access to your sovereign land for 40/50/100 years. IMF offers low-interest rates, and if you struggle to pay back, it still works with to get back in track, and sometimes forgives a portion of the loan.

provably wrong.

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/afr...-interest-free-loans-africa-are-coming-due-xi

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap...-billion-in-debt-cuba-accounts-for-over-half/

https://www.ft.com/content/0b207552-6977-11e9-80c7-60ee53e6681d
 
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China is on the right track. Nothing to worry. I thought huawei just take the crown of largest smartphone shipment.
 
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I asked about direct assistance. You provided your opinion about the IMF, a body where several wealthier countries contribute towards it to help countries in bad financial shape. Especially those countries that can't get loans in the open market or at affordable rates. That is why Pakistan looked for loans elsewhere before coming back to the IMF. Nobody forces you to go to the IMF. The US has influence but does not own that body.

China will give you a loan at very high-interest rates, and if you struggle with payment, it will tack on more interest, high penalties. Eventually, when it becomes difficult to pay because the loan has ballooned, China will ask you to give them total access to your sovereign land for 40/50/100 years.

IMF offers low-interest rates, and if you struggle to pay back, it still works with to get back in track, and sometimes forgives a portion of the loan.

If you think structural changes requested by IMF or World bank to help a country get out financial trouble is terrible, and you prefer to pay high-interest amounts and risk having to sell your land. You have that choice.

Not my opinion but the facts.

Furthermore, IMF history is anti-growth and detrimental to in industry which exaggerate the problems even further. Yes IMF loans are cheap but they took alot more in terms of your economic freedom.

With respect to China, most of it is not even a loan but equity investment and alot of them are on BOT basis.

With respect to USA direct assistance I have to equate that assistance with death of 60K plus Pakistan due to war of USA. The transfer of textile industry from Pakistan to Bangladesh due to law and order was also a gift from USA war on terror.

So don't try to pretend China as evil and USA as saint. All the countries are looking after their own interests and so is USA and China. We have tried USA and deceived to many times by USA, be it controlling through IMF, FATF Grey list, arms embargo in 1965 war, false promises of 1971 war, embargo on our paid F16s and the keep on holding the amounts for decades, initating Afghan war with soviet union and then leave the area keeping Afghanistan burning after demise of Soviet Union.

The list of deceit by USA is very long. After demise of Soviet Union smaller nation did not have option but now option is available in the form of China and countries are garbing the opportunity.

China might or might not be evil but the destruction USA brought in middle east just to secure oil is unprecedented. First USA armed Iraq to the teeth pushed them to attack Iran and then destroyed Iraq itself. The terrorist they used to bombed and destroy Afghanistan are bieng supported by USA in Syria and Iraq.

China might or might not be evil but right now they are helping us to build our local manufacturing base. We need to try them.
 
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Made in China 2025 looks like 'factory moving out of China 2020'.
 
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Made in China 2025 looks like 'factory moving out of China 2020'.
Salty Indian. :enjoy:

Tesla just build a mega factory in Shanghai. SMIC also received state funding to build world class chips production plant. China also started mass SD memory chips early this year. All those are high tech only low tech Indian can dream of.
 
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China was on its way to being the sole high-tech product provider to the world's wealthiest nations - BUT then the Xi doctrine happened.
How China chooses to react is the most significant crucial global event to watch


The Xi doctrine focused on a single goal, period (easily verifiable, no shockers here)

...at a high-level it is about an all-out, multi-faceted, aggressive move to position China as he sees its place on the world stage i.e. assuming the mantle of the sole leading superpower of tomorrow. BUT very different in ambition!

The building blocks are designed to achieve a sustained superpower role, by creating deep dependencies on China through surreptitious investment schemes for 100s of small partner nations. And the demand for absolute loyalty to all of China's interests at all times or risk being blacked out economically. Don't be fooled with humble words to the contrary, let their actions speak for themselves.

Execution of the doctrine began with convincing the CCP to bestow Xi a lifetime Head of the country role.

Below are some keys to achieving their goals
  • Get 'Tech-rich' quick scheme by a complete disregard of existing IP laws and acquiring the high-value technology through both legal loopholes (acquisitions of foreign companies and forcing them to hand over their advanced technologies), OR by stealing via industrial espionage.
China did not have to invest its own billions in R&D and time BUT got access to the advanced tech for free to relatively low cost. Countries understand military espionage is part of the game, but economic espionage is considered a significant violation and attack on its economy​
  • Establish dominance over crucial access points of the world economic supply chain through force, or bribes concealed as economic infrastructure incentives to authoritarian or corrupt governments. China has earned an infamous reputation of introduced untenable loans as a land-grabbing scheme.
  • A complete subjugation and control of his people, to be in lockstep with its cultural goals. See China's new policies on HK, or the extended rollout of mass cultural reeducation, ethnic cleansing, and reconversion of its Uyghur population.
Where do we see as pushback?
We see the pushback from the world's developed and wealthier nations. Ironically, coming from those China needs to achieve its tech dominance. Still in its early stages of pushback, BUT interestingly these nations have actioned their attack towards hurting China's high tech industries.

How China has reacted so far is VERY interesting.
On one end, they have been pretty muted on reacting to the push back on industries. Few things like jailing some Canadians and throwing verbal threats out. Seemingly more focused on the expansion (India, S. China sea, odd new rumors around wanting to garb land from other nations)

HOWEVER - lately it is has been interesting to observe its reaction to Tick Tok and the US demand. The CCP is threatening to cannibalize a Chinese company by threatening to kick them out of China, should it sell to the US. This is a BFD - China is threatening to hasten the demise of its OWN Chinese private company.

Had the roles been reversed and an American company was threatened by China to sell or leave. The decision would be left to the company to make.
This analysis misses the point. Xi doctrine or not, the US will not sit back and watch China surpass it on technology. USA will garner all it's influence to try and contain China no matter what China did. US did the same thing to Japan in the 1980s after Japan threatened to overtake the US in technology. Just look at what happened to Japan after US forced the 1985 Plaza Accord on it. History is repeating itself and China can't afford to back down.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/lessons-america-japan-trade-war-1980s-24882
 
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corner cases
Not my opinion but the facts.

Furthermore, IMF history is anti-growth and detrimental to in industry which exaggerate the problems even further. Yes IMF loans are cheap but they took alot more in terms of your economic freedom.

With respect to China, most of it is not even a loan but equity investment and alot of them are on BOT basis.

With respect to USA direct assistance I have to equate that assistance with death of 60K plus Pakistan due to war of USA. The transfer of textile industry from Pakistan to Bangladesh due to law and order was also a gift from USA war on terror.

So don't try to pretend China as evil and USA as saint. All the countries are looking after their own interests and so is USA and China. We have tried USA and deceived to many times by USA, be it controlling through IMF, FATF Grey list, arms embargo in 1965 war, false promises of 1971 war, embargo on our paid F16s and the keep on holding the amounts for decades, initating Afghan war with soviet union and then leave the area keeping Afghanistan burning after demise of Soviet Union.

The list of deceit by USA is very long. After demise of Soviet Union smaller nation did not have option but now option is available in the form of China and countries are garbing the opportunity.

China might or might not be evil but the destruction USA brought in middle east just to secure oil is unprecedented. First USA armed Iraq to the teeth pushed them to attack Iran and then destroyed Iraq itself. The terrorist they used to bombed and destroy Afghanistan are bieng supported by USA in Syria and Iraq.

China might or might not be evil but right now they are helping us to build our local manufacturing base. We need to try them.

You've put a lot of passion, personal opinion, and emotion, but 99% of the content has to do with justifying your reasons for a strategic partnership with China, or some external foreign policy complaint about the US. We are discussing China's loan terms and AID in comparison to the US.

You can't compare the IMF to Chinese loans because they exist for two separate scenarios.

IMF is not an infrastructure or investment loan group. If you come to the IMF, you are a near delinquent country, looking for a bridge loan to help with paying creditors. Understand this- IMF is a 'corrective body' that countries contribute to help other countries in financial trouble. It exists to help put countries back to the path of financial viability by demanding structural changes in the country's economic engines and policies that got it in trouble in the first place.

Where do you get that the Chinese loans are mostly equity investments? They are high-interest loans, and on top of that, they take equity from you. That is the opposite of equity investment. They require the country to use Chinese companies, Chinese assets, and Chinese workers mostly to build it out. If that's not enough, on top of it, you have to give them/their products moving through the infrastructure, fee-free access for 50,100 years.

If the world bank gives you a loan, they don't dictate which companies to use, or demand that particular country's workers have to be the workforce. The world bank is an infrastructure investment grouping, but to get jumbo loans, you can't be in a state of deep financial trouble.

You are calling a loan shark a nice guy because they give you a loan when other's refuse. The US does not provide Infrastructure loans; it provides AID. We say, if you want an infrastructure loan, you go to the world bank so that you get fair terms because we all know what happens when you have to get a loan from a loan shark.
 
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corner cases


You've put a lot of passion, personal opinion, and emotion, but 99% of the content has to do with justifying your reasons for a strategic partnership with China, or some external foreign policy complaint about the US. We are discussing China's loan terms and AID in comparison to the US.

You can't compare the IMF to Chinese loans because they exist for two separate scenarios.

IMF is not an infrastructure or investment loan group. If you come to the IMF, you are a near delinquent country, looking for a bridge loan to help with paying creditors. Understand this- IMF is a 'corrective body' that countries contribute to help other countries in financial trouble. It exists to help put countries back to the path of financial viability by demanding structural changes in the country's economic engines and policies that got it in trouble in the first place.

Where do you get that the Chinese loans are mostly equity investments? They are high-interest loans, and on top of that, they take equity from you. That is the opposite of equity investment. They require the country to use Chinese companies, Chinese assets, and Chinese workers mostly to build it out. If that's not enough, on top of it, you have to give them/their products moving through the infrastructure, fee-free access for 50,100 years.

If the world bank gives you a loan, they don't dictate which companies to use, or demand that particular country's workers have to be the workforce. The world bank is an infrastructure investment grouping, but to get jumbo loans, you can't be in a state of deep financial trouble.

You are calling a loan shark a nice guy because they give you a loan when other's refuse. The US does not provide Infrastructure loans; it provides AID. We say, if you want an infrastructure loan, you go to the world bank so that you get fair terms because we all know what happens when you have to get a loan from a loan shark.

Whatever man. U r entitled to your opinikn. Offcourse you cant absorb the bitter fact of the havoc and injustice USA spread accross the world but facts remains the facts.

What u called aid was a partial reimbursement of the war we fought on your behalf since 80s.

So whatever u think of us we need not justify anything to u as enough is enough.

One thing for sure u didnt give us a dime for free. U got alot more from us in return.
 
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Let's test your theory because we have a real case here where a country has been close to both US and China.

How much in loans did the US give Pakistan, and at what rate? How much of it did Pakistan have to pay back?
How much Aid or Military subsidy did the US give you, and how much aid has china provided Pakistan?

Can you give me an example of any small country exploited by the US over development?
The United States builds its country by looting the lands of Native Indians, relies on colonial trade and black slave trade to become strong.
In 2020, it relies on robbing Chinese companies to stay great, and plagiarizes Chinese companies’(Reels) to stay strong in science and technology.:omghaha::omghaha::omghaha::omghaha:
 
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China was on its way to being the sole high-tech product provider to the world's wealthiest nations - BUT then the Xi doctrine happened.
How China chooses to react is the most significant crucial global event to watch


The Xi doctrine focused on a single goal, period (easily verifiable, no shockers here)

...at a high-level it is about an all-out, multi-faceted, aggressive move to position China as he sees its place on the world stage i.e. assuming the mantle of the sole leading superpower of tomorrow. BUT very different in ambition!

The building blocks are designed to achieve a sustained superpower role, by creating deep dependencies on China through surreptitious investment schemes for 100s of small partner nations. And the demand for absolute loyalty to all of China's interests at all times or risk being blacked out economically. Don't be fooled with humble words to the contrary, let their actions speak for themselves.

Execution of the doctrine began with convincing the CCP to bestow Xi a lifetime Head of the country role.

Below are some keys to achieving their goals
  • Get 'Tech-rich' quick scheme by a complete disregard of existing IP laws and acquiring the high-value technology through both legal loopholes (acquisitions of foreign companies and forcing them to hand over their advanced technologies), OR by stealing via industrial espionage.
China did not have to invest its own billions in R&D and time BUT got access to the advanced tech for free to relatively low cost. Countries understand military espionage is part of the game, but economic espionage is considered a significant violation and attack on its economy​
  • Establish dominance over crucial access points of the world economic supply chain through force, or bribes concealed as economic infrastructure incentives to authoritarian or corrupt governments. China has earned an infamous reputation of introduced untenable loans as a land-grabbing scheme.
  • A complete subjugation and control of his people, to be in lockstep with its cultural goals. See China's new policies on HK, or the extended rollout of mass cultural reeducation, ethnic cleansing, and reconversion of its Uyghur population.
Where do we see as pushback?
We see the pushback from the world's developed and wealthier nations. Ironically, coming from those China needs to achieve its tech dominance. Still in its early stages of pushback, BUT interestingly these nations have actioned their attack towards hurting China's high tech industries.

How China has reacted so far is VERY interesting.
On one end, they have been pretty muted on reacting to the push back on industries. Few things like jailing some Canadians and throwing verbal threats out. Seemingly more focused on the expansion (India, S. China sea, odd new rumors around wanting to garb land from other nations)

HOWEVER - lately it is has been interesting to observe its reaction to Tick Tok and the US demand. The CCP is threatening to cannibalize a Chinese company by threatening to kick them out of China, should it sell to the US. This is a BFD - China is threatening to hasten the demise of its OWN Chinese private company.

Had the roles been reversed and an American company was threatened by China to sell or leave. The decision would be left to the company to make.
Sound's like the typical conspiracy theories doled out in the US by China obsessed analysts still stuck in the cold war mentality of 'We good, communism bad'.

When it comes to hypocrisy, dependencies, espionage, military interventions, covert and overt destabilization etc, nothing can hold a candle to the US.

So, by your own parameters, the country the world should be containing is the United States, not China.

The American people should be demanding that their government scale back these destabilizing and destructive actions and policies globally and stop creating bogeymen to attack, persecute and burn at the stake.
 
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Let's test your theory because we have a real case here where a country has been close to both US and China.

How much in loans did the US give Pakistan, and at what rate? How much of it did Pakistan have to pay back?
How much Aid or Military subsidy did the US give you, and how much aid has china provided Pakistan?

Can you give me an example of any small country exploited by the US over development?

Many!

Hahaha

But that is not USA fault, it's their own.

It's the economy.

Nothing is free in this world, because no one wants to work without a salary.


I don't think developing countries are angels, nor developed countries are the devil.

If developed countries are exploiting developing countries with debt and electronic products, so does developing countries are exploiting developed countries with natural resources and cheap products.

I never saw any countries, whoever developed or developing, give all their products for free for years.

We all as bad as what we see in others.
 
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Sound's like the typical conspiracy theories doled out in the US by China obsessed analysts still stuck in the cold war mentality of 'We good, communism bad'.

When it comes to hypocrisy, dependencies, espionage, military interventions, covert and overt destabilization etc, nothing can hold a candle to the US.

So, by your own parameters, the country the world should be containing is the United States, not China.

The American people should be demanding that their government scale back these destabilizing and destructive actions and policies globally and stop creating bogeymen to attack, persecute and burn at the stake.

So- you want the American people to capitulate to the Chinese. Allow their expansionism to flourish, hand over the keys to our tech, let them have control over the world economic zones, buy Chinese tech, permit monitoring and deployment in sensitive industries, dissolve NATO, and become a BRI client, yes?

Other than that, I hope you are enjoying your day and stay.
 
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