What does Pakistan bring to the table on Kashmir, Siachen?

[Bang Galore]

This follows from a discussion on a different thread.

I have a suggestion.

Start a new thread on this very topic, yet pose questions in simple short sentences.

Why does Pakistan/Pakistani's think that India would give up Kashmir or Siachen.

I think we may move forward based on that!

The questions that are here exist to provoke a discussion, specifically from any Pakistani posters who choose to offer up an opinion.

# What exactly does Pakistan want to practically achieve on Siachen in any discussion with India? Considering that India holds the higher ground militarily, what is the reason (in Pakistani opinion) that might make India agree to give up that position? What exactly is Pakistan's part in the quid pro quo that would be the basis of any such agreement? What will Pakistan be putting on the table?

# The same question on the larger issue of Kashmir. Pakistanis keep asking for a dialogue process but what is the reasonable settlement they seek, one that obviously will have to be signed off by India and therefore one that must meet its approval? Again what is it that Pakistan will offer in return for any compromise that they may seek from India? Why , in your view, do you think that India might be inclined to accept any such deal?

 

[Contrarian]

@notorious_eagle @RescueRanger @jaibi @Aeronaut

The question - Why should India do what you want us to do. What benefit do we get?

Is that benefit big enough/commensurate with what you want us to give up.

 

[Cherokee]

Explosions , mujhahideen and hot air .

 

[farhan_9909]

Well Pakistan should offer a solution to end the seperatist movement in IOK.rather work with india on this.

In return the siachen should be demilitarized aswell as to find the solution for a possible solution of Kashmir problem so that the LOC could be turned into international border with only few changes

 

[Indischer]

@Contrarian @Bang Galore
But will India, on it's part, ever agree on a deal to convert the LOC & AGPL into International borders? The Political Party under whose leadership any such deal goes through will have a hard time explaining to Indians on why the maps are suddenly showing lesser territory in Kashmir. Will any party ever take this risk?

 

[Kaniska]

Well Pakistan should offer a solution to end the seperatist movement in IOK.rather work with india on this.

In return the siachen should be demilitarized aswell as to find the solution for a possible solution of Kashmir problem so that the LOC could be turned into international border with only few changes

I think somehow you are have suggested a best possible solution...Once for all ...stop terrorist support and convert the LOC to the international border...and in return ...if this transition is smooth....then provide Siachen to Pakistan..Win win for all...At least we two nation at least can focos on other issues...

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

 

[Bang Galore]

@Contrarian @Bang Galore
But will India, on it's part, ever agree on a deal to convert the LOC & AGPL into International borders? The Political Party under whose leadership any such deal goes through will have a hard time explaining to Indians on why the maps are suddenly showing lesser territory in Kashmir. Will any party ever take this risk?

I think that we were much closer to such an agreement than most think. The BJP too was on board & the government close to signing the agreement. The walking back by the PPP government and the withdrawal of army backing by Kayan has made the Indian establishment very wary of signing any deal with the Pakistanis. Any government that bites the bullet & signs a deal only to see terrorist attacks on its citizens would have commited hara-kiri.

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

This is something we have discussed before and seems a continuation of a delusionary line of thinking. India will almost never give up physical control of its territory and certainly not for any reason of trade. That is a thinking in Pakistan that is perpetuating self-delusions. Contrary to what you think, India will not be persuaded to part with territory for any supposed monetory gains that may or may not accrue. The Bania concept is carried way too far. While such trade offers are most certainly welcome, they will not be the reason for any agreement. In any case, what is there for Pakistan to simply stop access on any number of grounds once it has got what it wants? The agreement will have to stand by itself. It may lead to other benefits but that won't be the swaying factor.

 

[acid rain]

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

Thats a nice offer and in return India will offer Pakistan the best and easiest direct land and rail route to Nepal, Bhutan, Burma and Bangladesh. Route ke badle route.

But the questions in the OP still stands.

 

[ranjeet]

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

Well what you suggests might sound lucrative but its not feasible, what if someone like Imran Khan gets up tomorrow and blocks the above mentioned access. India can't afford to be the whelms of some terrorists sympathizers. And moreover what Pakistan would ask for in concrete terms for such an access.

 

[Kaniska]

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

I completely agree with you...No question...But what is the kashmir resolution you want?
Let us talk Practical situation rather than idealism.

1- Go for voting in J&K to choose between India and Pakistan. And assume that People voted for Pakistan.

2- In voting process, region wise , people vote to remain in India except Kashmir valley region.

3- People voted to get independence.

Now think practically, if also bashed on your opinion or with your assumption India occupied Kashmir, do you practically still believe that India will renegotiate the physical boundary in a peaceful manner?
Dear friends...I am not talking as a rabid Pakistan bater kind of thing rather realistically, does Pakistan establishment still beleive that one day they will take over Kashmir from India? Even if India is put into the corner by whole world, trust me...whoever/whichever political party will sign the negotiation to physical boundary....they will get a permanent political death in Indian politics...And trust me...politician in India can go to any level to gain power...So they will not even think anything to this kind of step.

If you are thinking about independence, it is out of question, as why should Pakistan allow its controlled territory to become a separate nation in its border....and same thing for India too.

So best solution is that India back out from Siachen and once for all let us close the Kashmir chapter...So that both nation and its political party can declare that they get something in return.
Out of t

 

[OrionHunter]

# What exactly does Pakistan want to practically achieve on Siachen in any discussion with India? Considering that India holds the higher ground militarily, what is the reason (in Pakistani opinion) that might make India agree to give up that position? What exactly is Pakistan's part in the quid pro quo that would be the basis of any such agreement? What will Pakistan be putting on the table?

To put that in a nut shell, the PA's grand design to occupy Siachen is to link up with the Chinese at the Karakoram pass, thus providing them with a strategic military advantage and push India further South.

# The same question on the larger issue of Kashmir. Pakistanis keep asking for a dialogue process but what is the reasonable settlement they seek, one that obviously will have to be signed off by India and therefore one that must meet its approval? Again what is it that Pakistan will offer in return for any compromise that they may seek from India? Why , in your view, do you think that India might be inclined to accept any such deal?

The question is whether Pakistan really wants a solution to the Kashmir dispute? The answer is NO! I had posted the reasons in another post which I will reproduce here as to why Pakistan and other vested interests do not want a resolution of the dispute.

Here are the reasons why peace can never be achieved until there's a paradigm shift in the psyche of the powers that be. I had posted this in some other thread but it got lost in the labyrinthine maze of traffic on PDF.

The problem lies in the fact that the Zia doctrine is live and kicking in the PA. 'Bleeding India with a thousand cuts' is their signature tune especially after the 1971 war. Retribution for the loss is foremost in the psyche of the PA. They need to hurt India to get even. So any attempt at a detente is going to be a non-starter - unless of course there is a shift in this stereotypical thinking.

The second side of the triangle is the insecurity of the PA. They seem to be paranoid about being enveloped by India in the East, and Afghanistan supported by India in the West and therefore are propping up the Taliban (Haqqani) to take over the helm after American troops withdraw. For this they have been supping with the devil for the past 10 years, playing a game of running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. The Americans know this but are caught in a cleft stick as without Pakistan the cost of the WOT in Afghanistan would become prohibitive. If the Pakistan Establishment hadn't helped and supported the Taliban all these years, the game would have been over in Afghanistan long ago.

This has resulted in drone attacks that have killed hundreds of terrorists but resulted in collateral damage too which in turn has given birth to the TTP which has been responsible for the massive casualties of Pakistanis - more than 50,000 soldiers and civilians killed and many more wounded. This has also given birth to a number of militant groups, all jostling for space. The Establishment's support to terrorist groups to fight their wars against India by proxy has started getting out of control with splinter groups charting their own course by getting help of groups inimical to Pakistan's interests. This melds into the third side of the triangle which is:

The need of the PA to keep the Indian 'threat' alive, without which the very raison d'etre of the PA would be at stake. Otherwise they would be sidelined and lose their credibility and importance in Pakistan. So they need an enemy to keep up the charade, which needless to say is India.

At the center of this triangle are the vested interests that need to keep Indo-Pak hostilities going and the pot boiling. An example is the JuD that collects millions of rupees from the sheeple by its anti-India tirades, without which contributions would dry up. They need a reason which is the 'liberation of Kashmir'. A very convenient motive as this could last for decades resulting in a steady flow of funds.

So, it's not just the conversion of the LoC or other such simplistic proposals that would sort out the Indo-Pak problem as many are led to believe. There are wheels within wheels - almost impossible to extricate from. And therefore, though Aman ki Asha is a noble concept, it will remain a non starter till well into the future.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Thats a nice offer and in return India will offer Pakistan the best and easiest direct land and rail route to Nepal, Bhutan, Burma and Bangladesh. Route ke badle route.

But the questions in the OP still stands.

Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh & Myanmar ! brother are you serious we have absolutely no desire for connectivity with any of these world class one of a kind destinations

 

[Jade]

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

Honestly, transit facility do more good to Pakistan than to India. First, Pakistan would earn fat check for its services, second Pakistan's volatile borders and country at large will get infinitely more stable because of immense jobs that are created as a result of this two way trade. In short Pakistan will become a trading hub in this region like Singapore or HK for far east. In contrast, the benefits accrued to India are some savings.

I know you are a sane member here, Why don't you also suggest a solution on Kashmir that is acceptable to India too.

 

[Contrarian]

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

You assumptions are flawed friend.
Let me put it break down the details.
Trade via land through Pakistan at best gets us till Afghanistan.
Beyond that trade in heavy materials - the kind that we want and sell to Afghanistan - is not economical to be transported over land even if a land route is available.

For these kinds of shipments sea trade is the best route.
Even for access with CAR, trade through sea is the most economical route - or transfer from sea to land at the nearest possible point.

Till now India did not have access to these regions because Iran was under heavy and constant threat from world powers and trade suffered. With the restrictions easing, and our own port built in Chabahar in Iran we already have access to Central Asia and Afghanistan finally. Sure access to Afghanistan is more expensive from Iran, however it is still cheaper to access CAR from Iran than from (crossing land) in Pakistan, Afghanistan.
We now already have dry docks, facilities, etc in Chabahar and more are being built. There is a brand new highway connecting Chabahar to Afghanistan, and Iran is building rail lines connecting Chabahar to their national rail network.

You realize what is happening now is completely different from the situation prevalent earlier in which case our entire access to CAR/Afghanistan was dependent on Pakistan. That is no longer true starting last week.

You think that India would give up Kashmir and Siachen for a cheaper route to Afghanistan?