What does being a liberal mean?

[Verve]

Then from whence comes this desire to control what others do as part of social life?

Question was for him to answer, not for you to ask one on instead.

Please go open your school. Will visit when the literature is ready.

 

[wiseone2]

liberalism by definition it has two core concepts on which it is founded equality and liberty .all the other ideas like tolerance,equal rights for every race,gender equality,freedom of speech,freedom of religion and even democracy stems from these two core believes.the idea behind liberalism is it is not static and it continues to evolve with the time, morals and new issues but for one to be called a liberal he has to believe in these two core concepts.

liberals were always the most hated bunch of society throughout the history and many of were even send to gallows and lost their most valuable possession.why?because they were the first one to challenge the deeply rooted social norms or religious believes of their societies.the believes like the flat earth or geocentrism.But had they or no one else challenged such believes in their time we would still be living in medieval era.No matter how much they were hated in their time It was always the liberals who challenged and changed their societies who brought forward the new ideas like democracy in front of people living in a monarchy or gender equality in a patriarchal culture.conservatives of that time hated them but now the whole world is reaping the benefit of the forward thinking of few minds.

while west now has the balanced amount of liberals and conservatives in their populace who can openly and easily challenge each others ideas .same can't be said about Pakistan or many other Muslim countries.here the conservative population is more dominant who consider liberals and their believes a threat to their society.which is halting the growth of these countries.

when ever someone talk about oppressed groups, gender equality blasphemy law or minority rights whole society instantly assumes that he is here to spread vulgarity in their women and destroy foundation of Islam etc and instead of engaging him in a proper debate people become defensive and start hurling personal insults or fatwa e kuffar at the guy.why is it like that when even Islam it self was the most liberal religion(also the reason of it spreading so quickly) of the period which gave the minority and women the rights which were unheard at the time and promoted a healthy debate culture.answer is because these guys or the guy teaching them islam has nothing to do with Islam all they want to do retain as much power over the other groups as they can.they don't care if it is immoral or even unislamic. same was the case with the Church they didn't put Galileo to house arrest for life just because he was disagreeing with them he was imprisoned because he openly challenged the church's power by repeatedly publishing his work on heliocentrism while he was told to abandon the opinion,inciting people to think against the geocentric teaching of the church and ridiculing a pope in the process.

so when ever these imam masjid and so called Islamic scholars like fazul rehman feel threaten by an idea which can loosen their grip on the masses. they use their fatwa power to turn the people against the idea.even if it is totally in accordance to Islam i.e tolerating other sects and minorities or women working outside the house .

ever increasing terrorism and radicalization of Muslim countries can only be ended if they adopt to the tolerant and liberal values of modern word .other wise they will be left behind isolated and devastated.its time we move forward and break these chains of century old mindset.

Being open minded
A lot of liberals are as dogmatic as the conservative crowd

 

[VCheng]

The lack of acceptance for diversity is the basic problem. When one becomes convinced that their own way of thinking and belief and life is the only way possible, then a zealot is created. By contrast, a liberal is one who remains willing to accept the fact that others have the same right to make choices for themselves as the liberal allows for their ownself.

 

[AZMAT 9211]

This is part of the point I was making, someone needs to come out and tell people to actually follow the Quran and Hadith instead of 'pretending' to follow this foreign fundamentalist version that's seeped into Pakistan.

For instance, lets take Mumtaz Qadri; a man who violated national law, the Quran, and broke his oath to protect the governor. How did these people react? They built a shrine (which is against Islamic teachings), and had nationwide protests against his sentencing. The fact that they have had to double the capacity of the shrine because so many people want to visit speaks volumes about how ingrained this mindset is.

What about the governor.
Did he do the right thing? ????

 

[Hell hound]

You would allow these breaches to continue in your domain, even after the talks? No further action of any kind?

i think i have already given you the answer to this question.

 

[Verve]

i think i have already given you the answer to the question.

Ok. Hopefully you will not face a situation down the line where this current liberal mindset of yours is shattered by your own actions.

 

[VCheng]

Right, let's try scaremongering when logic and reason fail to provide backup to one's position.

 

[Flash_Ninja]

What about the governor.
Did he do the right thing? ????

For speaking out against an outdated law?

besides, Allah is the only one responsible for deeming whether the governors actions were right or wrong. No practising and faithful Muslim would brutally kill another person over what they perceive to be 'anti-Islamic'; Islam is quite clear on this:

“but if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (Surah Al-Anfal 8:61)

"whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely." ( Surah Al-Mai'dah 5:32)

“and whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is Hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement.” (Surah An-Nisa 4:93)

The Holy Prophet (S) announced on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage (Hajjatul Wida’):

“O People! It is not permitted to kill the Muslims. Similarly to appropriate their property is not allowed. So do not be unjust upon yourselves and do not revert to disbelief after my death.”

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) says:

“A believer is free in the vast expanse of his belief till he colours his hands with the blood of a Mu’min.”

Imam (a.s.) further says:

“One who kills a believer intentionally is deprived of the ‘Tawfīq’ of repenting (for his sins).”

 

[I.R.A]

why replace muslim with liberal?

A Muslim is a liberal by default ................. Muslim doesn't believe in any nonsense, neither he worships entities other than ALLAH. If you believe in nonsense you are not a liberal.

I don't know if you really believe that being liberal means wearing bikinis or supporting nude days ......... that is not being liberal but nonsense which a Muslim by default would reject.

Quran teaches you Islam, not liberalism.

Quran tells you to think. Is there no one to think?

How difficult is it for you to understand that Islam is unique and has no parallels so labelling it as liberalism is wrong

Allowing others to hijack something that only and only Islam allowed is wrong.

Quran is word of Allah, do you believe in that? If yes, Allah calls our deen Islam, not liberalism.

ALLAH made you the best of its creations and gave you the best of the books ............... why? So you could read it like a parrot? Or use it for Taweez?

 

[Verve]

A Muslim is a liberal by default

A liberal is a what by default?

My point is that one doesn't need to look at or review Islam through the prism of liberalism (a concept that is man made, just like all the sects!).

Liberals do not believe in state religion, would you say that a muslim majority state should not take any laws from the Quran that are clearly stated and without any ambiguity? Did Prophet S.A.W make laws for Madina state with or without references to Quran?

Quran repeatedly says to 'be men possessed of minds', and my understanding of that is to be open minded, logical, analytical, and rational (there is more but that should cover it) whilst being within the guidelines and parameters explicitly defined by Allah to be the right path. I don't consider it however to mean liberal that opens the doors of defiance against Allah.

One doesn't need to have a liberal mindset to be a good muslim. One needs to have a balanced mindset. Eventually, most liberals become libertines (freethinkers) and libertines have been mentioned repeatedly in the Quran as well.

You want to reclassifying Islam and muslim as liberal, then by all means, carry on. Although you seem to be contradicting yourself and coincidently agreeing with me by saying "Allowing others to hijack something that only and only Islam allowed is wrong."

As @Oscar said, middle ground is where it should be and I fully agree with that.

 

[VCheng]

Matters of State, which must work equally for all members of a society, must be kept separate from matters of religion, which are private matters. Trying to enforce a religion by using powers of the State will always fail.

 

[RoadRunner401]

Read Quran (or a good translation) without a liberal mindset or any mindset for that matter and then reflect! You do not need me or anyone else (movlis, sheikhs, scholars etc) to explain anything, try using your own mind to comprehend what our Creator is saying to us. Start with that. A lot of your misconceptions above will be cleared by Allah. Go to the source.



No idea who and when!

You mean to tell me Prophet of Islam didn't know what he was talking about and you are right, really! give me the Surat from THE NOBLE QURAN

 

[Verve]

Matters of State, which must work equally for all members of a society, must be kept separate from matters of religion, which are private matters. Trying to enforce a religion by using powers of the State will always fail.

Fantastic twisting and turning it in to "enforce a religion by using powers of the State"!!

Would you want to legalise opening and operating of 'swingers clubs' and 'brothels' in Pakistan? Or would such a thing be illegal in your 'liberal state' that you want Pakistan to be? Where do liberals draw the line when it comes to state laws?

Where does a liberal state derive laws from to maintain a minimum morality standards in the society?

 

[VCheng]

What does religion have to do with banning swinger's clubs or brothels? Those are social issues regardless of religion. Besides, how much should the State interfere with the private matters of its citizens? Morality simply cannot be legislated. It comes about from many factors.

 

[Verve]

What does religion have to do with banning swinger's clubs or brothels? Those are social issues regardless of religion. Besides, how much should the State interfere with the private matters of its citizens? Morality simply cannot be legislated. It comes about from many factors.

Alright, let's put religion aside for a minute.

Which country with the laws that you find ideal, that those be taken up in Pakistan? It's all fine with liberal mantra but in practicality what laws and copy which country?