What do Pakistanis think of Russia/Ukraine/Eastern Europe

[Yankee-stani]

What you guys think of The Russian Federation and the former Eastern Block states

 

[Cobra Arbok]

I have heard that eastern European countries had close ties with Pakistan because India supported the USSR.

 

[Yankee-stani]

I have heard that eastern European countries had close ties with Pakistan because India supported the USSR.

Poland had really good ties with Pakistan during the Cold War and I think Pakistan’s first Air Marshall or General was A Polish dude and his decedents are scientists at SUPARCO

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Poland had really good ties with Pakistan during the Cold War and I think Pakistan’s first Air Marshall or General was A Polish dude and his decedents are scientists at SUPARCO

Yeah I heard that some Poles fled Poland to escape persecution and took refugee in Pakistan, where they intermarried with the locals. Their descendants are still in Pakistan today. And I have also heard that some of them had major roles in Pakistan's defense industry. Even on this forum I hear about frequent cooperation between the Polish and Pak armies but rarely between India and Poland.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The British created Jihadis, they also created Pakistan; hanging around the Soviet neck, the "albatross" of Islam !!

 

[Cobra Arbok]

The British created Jihadis, they also created Pakistan; hanging around the Soviet neck, the "albatross" of Islam !!

There is a theory that the British agreed to Jinnah's demands because they felt a socialist like Nehru would side with the Soviets, and a united South Asia allied with the Soviets would be a disaster for the west geopolitically.

 

[Yankee-stani]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_Turowicz

 

[M. Sarmad]

There is a theory that the British agreed to Jinnah's demands because they felt a socialist like Nehru would side with the Soviets, and a united South Asia allied with the Soviets would be a disaster for the west geopolitically.

On 1 May 1947 two Americans, Ronald A. Hare, Head of the Division of South Asian Affairs, and Thomas E. Weil, Second Secretary of U.S. Embassy in India, visited Jinnah. A detailed account of this visit was sent by the American Charge D' Affairs to Marshall, the Secretary of State. According to this account Jinnah stated that under no condition was he prepared to accept the scheme for a united and federated India. The Muslim League had decided to insist upon the creation of Pakistan:

He [Jinnah] sought to impress on his visitors that the emergence of an independent, sovereign Pakistan would be in consonance with American interests. Pakistan would be a Muslim country. Muslim countries stand together against Russian aggression. In that endeavour they would look to the United States for assistance, he added.[Venkataraman, American Role in Pakistan,p.1]

This is a variation on the old British game of hanging around the Soviet neck, the "albatross" of Islam

Jinnah was trying to persuade the United States that it was politically expedient to build an Islamic bastion against Russians. If India was allowed to remain unified then the bastion stretching from Turkey to China would be incomplete. This message was being communicated by Jinnah through every American Agent. The slogan was,


"Create Pakistan and save the western world!"

 

[Yankee-stani]

I am glad the USSR is gone it was shitty union of republics that could not manage its own territory without push or shove tactics at least China had economic growth to back up its rule the USSR was stagnant at best only Brezhnev was okay but he was drunkard at best and his invasion and incorporation of Afghanistan was grave mistake

 

[Desert Fox]

The British created Jihadis, they also created Pakistan; hanging around the Soviet neck, the "albatross" of Islam !!

On 1 May 1947 two Americans, Ronald A. Hare, Head of the Division of South Asian Affairs, and Thomas E. Weil, Second Secretary of U.S. Embassy in India, visited Jinnah. A detailed account of this visit was sent by the American Charge D' Affairs to Marshall, the Secretary of State. According to this account Jinnah stated that under no condition was he prepared to accept the scheme for a united and federated India. The Muslim League had decided to insist upon the creation of Pakistan:

He [Jinnah] sought to impress on his visitors that the emergence of an independent, sovereign Pakistan would be in consonance with American interests. Pakistan would be a Muslim country. Muslim countries stand together against Russian aggression. In that endeavour they would look to the United States for assistance, he added.[Venkataraman, American Role in Pakistan,p.1]

This is a variation on the old British game of hanging around the Soviet neck, the "albatross" of Islam

Jinnah was trying to persuade the United States that it was politically expedient to build an Islamic bastion against Russians. If India was allowed to remain unified then the bastion stretching from Turkey to China would be incomplete. This message was being communicated by Jinnah through every American Agent. The slogan was,


"Create Pakistan and save the western world!"

So what are you trying to say that Pakistan was a British conspiracy against Communism and should not have been created?

And that we should have remained lumped with a hindu majority that dominated the intelligentsia and therefore would have dominated every stratum of society while Muslims would have remained a underclass?

@Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @django

 

[Cobra Arbok]

On 1 May 1947 two Americans, Ronald A. Hare, Head of the Division of South Asian Affairs, and Thomas E. Weil, Second Secretary of U.S. Embassy in India, visited Jinnah. A detailed account of this visit was sent by the American Charge D' Affairs to Marshall, the Secretary of State. According to this account Jinnah stated that under no condition was he prepared to accept the scheme for a united and federated India. The Muslim League had decided to insist upon the creation of Pakistan:

He [Jinnah] sought to impress on his visitors that the emergence of an independent, sovereign Pakistan would be in consonance with American interests. Pakistan would be a Muslim country. Muslim countries stand together against Russian aggression. In that endeavour they would look to the United States for assistance, he added.[Venkataraman, American Role in Pakistan,p.1]

This is a variation on the old British game of hanging around the Soviet neck, the "albatross" of Islam

Jinnah was trying to persuade the United States that it was politically expedient to build an Islamic bastion against Russians. If India was allowed to remain unified then the bastion stretching from Turkey to China would be incomplete. This message was being communicated by Jinnah through every American Agent. The slogan was,


"Create Pakistan and save the western world!"

Well it looks like they were not wrong. Hindu/secular India aligned with the Soviets, while Muslim Pakistan joined the US camp. In fact Ayub Khan even supported India against the Godless, atheist Chinese and considered China to be a big threat to Pakistan. Pakistan was even a member of the anti Soviet, anti China SEATO. Islam also turned out to be a huge headache for the USSR as Nationalist movements began using Islam as motivation. the US had the perfect opportunity to convince the Taliban to wage jihad against the Godless Soviets. Something interesting is that while Islam is incompatible with socialism, Hinduism isn't. I have been studying Vedanta, and there are valid interpretations of some texts that can support socialism.

Looking at how things are now, it is amazing how things have changed.

So what are you trying to say that Pakistan was a British conspiracy against Communism and should not have been created?

And that we should have remained lumped with a hindu majority that dominated the intelligentsia and therefore would have dominated every stratum of society while Muslims would have remained a underclass?

@Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @django

Of course not. But there is nothing wrong with saying the British had their own motivations during partition. Russian influence in Central Asia had always been a major factor influencing British policy regarding South Asia. you could say the same thing about the French supporting the America Revolution.

 

[Yankee-stani]

So what are you trying to say that Pakistan was a British conspiracy against Communism and should not have been created?

And that we should have remained lumped with a hindu majority that dominated the intelligentsia and therefore would have dominated every stratum of society while Muslims would have remained a underclass?

@Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @django

I don’t think he believes he that all he said it was a theory a theory is theory at bests

 

[M. Sarmad]

Something interesting is that while Islam is incompatible with socialism, Hinduism isn't. I have been studying Vedanta, and there are valid interpretations of some texts that can support socialism.

Looking at how things are now, it is amazing how things have changed.

Allama Muhammad Iqbal, generally acknowledged as the man who gave the "idea of Pakistan", was a great admirer of Karl Marx .. He writes : Marx the author of Das Capital ; being one of the children's of Abraham is also a Messenger but without Gabriel i.e. Divine Revelation .. Iqbal lauded Lenin , Marx and communism ...

Marx started his writing career as a poet, while Iqbal’s first book was on economics Ilm-al-Iqtisad ... Marx’s criticism of right-wing economists in his books Holy Family, The German Ideology, Poverty of Philosophy and Das Capital closely resembles the tone and tenor of Iqbal’s diatribes against exploiters, capitalists and the preachers of false gods. According to Engels, Marx “discovered the special law of motion governing the present-day capitalist mode of production and the bourgeois society that this mode of production has created. The discovery of surplus value suddenly threw light on the problem, in trying to solve which, all previous investigations of both right-wing economists and socialist critics, had been groping in the dark.”

Iqbal’s view on surplus labor closely follows that of Marx. He says in Ilm-al-Iqtisad: “If the wealth of the landlord is not the result of personal effort, then his property is unjust. In view of this fact some scholars maintain that this injustice is produced by the private ownership which is harmful to the national interest. Accordingly, land is not the property of a particular individual and should be nationalized.” Similarly, “the profit which in the present conditions goes into the pocket of the capitalist should accrue to labor. And, increased productivity which is the fruit of labor should entirely benefit labor, and capitalists have no claim over it.”

Iqbal assails right-wing economists who conceal the predatory nature of capitalism and exploit science to serve the interests of the ruling class.

According to Iqbal: “All lines of Muslim thought converge on a dynamic concept of the universe.” The dialectics of this concept is the essence of Marxian philosophy, which regards nature in constant motion and evolution, and studies it in the context of its interconnectedness, constant transformation and development. ,,


Iqbal has criticized Marx only for "not being able to realize God/creator" , Iqbal was against "atheistic" Socialism .. He was a proponent of "Islamic" Socialism ...





In his Chittagong 1948 broadcast, the Governor General (i.e. Muhammad Ali Jinnah) espoused Islamic Socialism (Burke, 2007, pp.166).


Before him Allama Iqbal had said God plus Bolshevism is Islam.


Hasrat Mohani used the term Islamic Communism.


Liaquat Ali Khan called Islamic Socialism the state policy of Pakistan (Symonds, 1976, pp.182).


Fatimah Jinnah with reference to her brother’s Chittagong speech advocated Islamic Socialism (Khan,1976, pp. 25, 26).

Dr. Muhammad Ali Siddiqui is witness that the Raja of Mahmudabad favored Islamic Socialism, in Katrak Hall, Karachi in 1967 (Siddiqui, 1998, pp.18)


Addressing workers in the Calcutta of 1943 , Jinnah said:

"Why am I turning my blood into water, for the rich, for the capitalist? No, for you, the poor people. There are so many places where one cannot get a square meal a day. Is that Pakistan? If that is Pakistan I would not want it."

Jinnah said :

"You are only voicing my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmans when you say that Pakistan should be based on sure foundations of social justice and Islamic socialism which emphasizes equality and brother-hood of man."

In his speech at the Frontier Muslim League Conference on 21-11-1945 he said:

"We have to fight a double-edged battle, one against the Hindu Congress and the other against British Imperialists, both of them being capitalists ... "

Islam also turned out to be a huge headache for the USSR as Nationalist movements began using Islam as motivation. .

In a 1953 interview, Bertrand Russell said :"Communism does not oppose religion. It merely opposes the Christian religion, just as Mohammedanism does"

and "Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of the world.’"


Indeed, the Bolsheviks welcomed left wing Muslims into the communist parties (CPs). The Bolshevik leader Leon Trotsky noted in 1923 that in some former colonies as many as 15 percent of CP members were believers in Islam. He called them the 'raw revolutionary recruits who come knocking on our door'. In parts of Central Asia, Muslim membership was as high as 70 percent.

Sacred Islamic monuments, books and objects looted by the tsars were returned to the mosques. Friday - the day of Muslim celebration - was declared to be the legal day of rest throughout Central Asia. A parallel court system was created in 1921, with Islamic courts administering justice in accordance with sharia laws. The aim was for people to have a choice between religious and revolutionary justice. A special Sharia Commission was established in the Soviet Commissariat of Justice.

A parallel education system was also established. In 1922 rights to certain waqf (Islamic) properties were restored to Muslim administration, with the proviso that they were used for education. As a result, the system of madrassahs - religious schools - was extensive. In 1925 there were 1,500 madrassahs with 45,000 students in the Caucasus state of Dagestan, as opposed to just 183 state schools.

The Bolsheviks took a very different approach to Orthodox Christianity, the religion of the brutal Russian colonists and missionaries. Party policy in Central Asia, endorsed by Moscow, stated that 'freedom from religious prejudice' was a requirement for Russians only. So in 1922 over 1,500 Russians were kicked out of the Turkestan CP because of their religious convictions, but not a single Turkestani. Bolsheviks were fierce enemies of Russian orthodox church . They killed clergy in large numbers and confiscated their properties ...


Christians started seeing Bolshevism as an anti-christ "religion" (Just like Islam) , Bolsheviks made alliances with Muslims . Majority of Muslim leaders supported the soviets, convinced that Soviet power meant religious liberty. There was serious discussion among Muslims of the similarity of Islamic values to socialist principles. Popular slogans of the time included: 'Long live Soviet power, long live the sharia!'; 'Religion, freedom and national independence!' Supporters of 'Islamic socialism' .... !!



However , From the mid-1920s the Stalinists began planning an all-out attack on Islam under the banner of women's rights. The slogan of the campaign was khudzhum - which means storming or assault. At mass meetings women were called upon to unveil. It was a million miles from Lenin's instruction that 'we are absolutely opposed to giving offence to religious conviction'.

Leninist tradition totally rejects the Stalinist approach to Islam. In the early years of the revolution the Bolsheviks were successful at winning Muslims to fight for socialism.

http://socialistreview.org.uk/280/bolsheviks-and-islam-religious-rights
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/how-...ration-of-radicals.471019/page-3#post-9091597

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Allama Muhammad Iqbal, generally acknowledged as the man who gave the "idea of Pakistan", was a great admirer of Karl Marx .. He writes : Marx the author of Das Capital ; being one of the children's of Abraham is also a Messenger but without Gabriel i.e. Divine Revelation .. Iqbal lauded Lenin , Marx and communism ...

Marx started his writing career as a poet, while Iqbal’s first book was on economics Ilm-al-Iqtisad ... Marx’s criticism of right-wing economists in his books Holy Family, The German Ideology, Poverty of Philosophy and Das Capital closely resembles the tone and tenor of Iqbal’s diatribes against exploiters, capitalists and the preachers of false gods. According to Engels, Marx “discovered the special law of motion governing the present-day capitalist mode of production and the bourgeois society that this mode of production has created. The discovery of surplus value suddenly threw light on the problem, in trying to solve which, all previous investigations of both right-wing economists and socialist critics, had been groping in the dark.”

Iqbal’s view on surplus labor closely follows that of Marx. He says in Ilm-al-Iqtisad: “If the wealth of the landlord is not the result of personal effort, then his property is unjust. In view of this fact some scholars maintain that this injustice is produced by the private ownership which is harmful to the national interest. Accordingly, land is not the property of a particular individual and should be nationalized.” Similarly, “the profit which in the present conditions goes into the pocket of the capitalist should accrue to labor. And, increased productivity which is the fruit of labor should entirely benefit labor, and capitalists have no claim over it.”

Iqbal assails right-wing economists who conceal the predatory nature of capitalism and exploit science to serve the interests of the ruling class.

According to Iqbal: “All lines of Muslim thought converge on a dynamic concept of the universe.” The dialectics of this concept is the essence of Marxian philosophy, which regards nature in constant motion and evolution, and studies it in the context of its interconnectedness, constant transformation and development. ,,


Iqbal has criticized Marx only for "not being able to realize God/creator" , Iqbal was against "atheistic" Socialism .. He was a proponent of "Islamic" Socialism ...





In his Chittagong 1948 broadcast, the Governor General (i.e. Muhammad Ali Jinnah) espoused Islamic Socialism (Burke, 2007, pp.166).


Before him Allama Iqbal had said God plus Bolshevism is Islam.


Hasrat Mohani used the term Islamic Communism.


Liaquat Ali Khan called Islamic Socialism the state policy of Pakistan (Symonds, 1976, pp.182).


Fatimah Jinnah with reference to her brother’s Chittagong speech advocated Islamic Socialism (Khan,1976, pp. 25, 26).

Dr. Muhammad Ali Siddiqui is witness that the Raja of Mahmudabad favored Islamic Socialism, in Katrak Hall, Karachi in 1967 (Siddiqui, 1998, pp.18)


Addressing workers in the Calcutta of 1943 , Jinnah said:

"Why am I turning my blood into water, for the rich, for the capitalist? No, for you, the poor people. There are so many places where one cannot get a square meal a day. Is that Pakistan? If that is Pakistan I would not want it."

Jinnah said :

"You are only voicing my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmans when you say that Pakistan should be based on sure foundations of social justice and Islamic socialism which emphasizes equality and brother-hood of man."

In his speech at the Frontier Muslim League Conference on 21-11-1945 he said:

"We have to fight a double-edged battle, one against the Hindu Congress and the other against British Imperialists, both of them being capitalists ... "

interesting... looks like I was wrong about that. But tbh, communism is incompatible with religion in general. Marx even called religion the opiate of the masses, and one of the things that prevents the proleteriate from becoming aware of their oppression.

Anyway, I am happy to debate Marxist philosophy, but tbh we are kind of getting off topic.

 

[Yankee-stani]

The early 20th century was filled with extreme tribulations and the Bolshevik Revolution was one of them