Western Liberalism in crisis China/Russia might take advantage

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

The Turks are going be tied with Moscow so no worries the west reaaprochment is getting highly unlikely besides Erdogan is more interested in staying power so Uyghurs are least of concern


Unlike Russia China sees giving autonomy as sigh of weakness that's their mindset as for Uyghurs there is division as you see most Pakistanis are Sinophiles still

That is right and I don't get it why China is so hell bent of Sinofication of everything earlier it was not like this under Xi the condition became much worse they are not even sparing the Huis too who are much more patriotic towards China.

 

[Yankee-stani]

That is right and I don't get it why China is so hell bent of Sinofication of everything earlier it was not like this under Xi the condition became much worse they are not even sparing the Huis too who are much more patriotic towards China.

I am taking a nuanced view years of hearing of Muslims being used as pawns by western imperialists eg Yugoslavia in the 90s Chechnya in the late 90s what makes you think the Uyghur diaspora groups are giving the right picture but the Beijing government is not being clean or clear what's actually going on in Xinjiang

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

I am taking a nuanced view years of hearing of Muslims being used as pawns by western imperialists eg Yugoslavia in the 90s Chechnya in the late 90s what makes you think the Uyghur diaspora groups are giving the right picture but the Beijing government is not being clean or clear what's actually going on in Xinjiang

Cause they survived the wrath and their plights are documented by various sources so they are right.

 

[GeraltofRivia]

Ask Chinese Communists or atheists about Muslims and Islam to be honest Chinese are pretty Islamophobic as well but that does not stop Muslim countries like Pakistan having a de facto alliance with them besides Russia has built much better rapport with Muslim countries in recent years with granting Chechenya autonomy,helping out sanction hit countries like Syria and bringing the Turks to their side I think some Pakistanis need move on from the 1980s world view point of the Soviet Afghan war
s

From a Chinese perspective, I feel we mostly look at other countries from a economical development and geographical lenses ie developing/developed countries, Asian/African/European countries. Naturally we tend to focus on questions like what we can trade with each other and how to build good relationship so we can trade more and grow our economy. This world view remains largely unchanged over the last 2 thousand years as you know we have been trading with everyone. Not sure how you got the feeling of us being Islamophobic but it could be how we are portrayed to be in the western media. This ties back to the discussion that how powerful western propaganda is.

 

[Yankee-stani]

From a Chinese perspective, I feel we mostly look at other countries from a economical development lenses ie developing/developed countries. Naturally we tend to focus on questions like what we can trade with each other and how to build good relationship so we can trade more and grow our economy. Not sure how you got the feeling of us being Islamophobic but it could be how we are portrayed to be in the western media. This ties back to the discussion that how powerful western propaganda is.

What I meant was the OP has a clear bias on one hand he despises Russia for being Islamophobic while China not what I am saying anyways at end of the day it's all about national and regional interests for the Turks post Cold War they been abandoned by Europe so they look to Central Asia for their historical basis hence anti Chinese or anti Russian sentiment for Pakistanis China is in positive spot due the nature of its de facto alliance spanning 60 years

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

From a Chinese perspective, I feel we mostly look at other countries from a economical development lenses ie developing/developed countries. Naturally we tend to focus on questions like what we can trade with each other and how to build good relationship so we can trade more and grow our economy. Not sure how you got the feeling of us being Islamophobic but it could be how we are portrayed to be in the western media. This ties back to the discussion that how powerful western propaganda is.

The chinese were not as a matter of fact Zheng He was a chinese to begin with and muslims flourished in China sacrificed their lives as well as there was a statue in China forgot the name which depicts the loyalty. But recent emphasis on sinofication of everything and anything is in contrast with the treatment muslims got earlier . Recent heavy handed approach even on Huis proved that too. I would blame Xi for that I don't know what cultural utopia he wants but throughout history as far as I read Chinese were much more pluralistic in their attitude.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

If China gives a bit consideration to Uighurs China will gain much more while losing a little . The Uighur is China's achilles heel , if they don't go for such a heavy handed approach making everyone same rather go for soft approach by discussion and mitigating the differences and allowing a cultural pluralism to flourish with their own laws and customs in a autonomy then it would be much more rewarding .

You are on to something.

As I stated earlier, image is everything in a propaganda war. The Uyghur situation was used by the US to tarnish China, right or wrong. It was disastrous for Chinese soft power in Western and Central Asia.

Even now, the first question any Muslim asks Pakistan is how we can support China against Uyghurs. Without discussing any details, this is the general perception which was created by CIA propaganda.

The only way to undo it is help from Turkey. I see no other way, as Turkey is the undisputed cultural and political leader of all Turkic nations, Uyghurs included. Pakistan cannot fight Western propaganda by itself.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

You are on to something.

As I stated earlier, image is everything in a propaganda war. The Uyghur situation was used by the US to tarnish China, right or wrong. It was disastrous for Chinese soft power in Western and Central Asia.

Even now, the first question any Muslim asks Pakistan is how we can support China against Uyghurs. Without discussing any details, this is the general perception which was created by CIA propaganda.

The only way to undo it is help from Turkey. I see no other way, as Turkey is the undisputed cultural and political leader of all Turkic nations, Uyghurs included. Pakistan cannot fight Western propaganda by itself.

The chinese people are some interesting bunch . Today was reading a bit about history though Islam as a religion flourished in China while Christianity and Buddhism suffered since antiquity under Ming dynasty there was a official law that asked muslims (semu) to obligatorily marry Hans to support Han majoritism while religion made to flourish so they were always too much ethnocentrist. However now a days they are clamping on religion too earlier it was not the case. Propaganda or not there is good enough proof to support it and Tibet is a glaring proof of that.

However countering this is hard until or unless China mends its ways and recent Covid thing is not helping her in any way.

If China could behave like she did during earlier times allowing religion to be practised without hinge they would get supporters .

https://books.google.co.in/books?id...Hui Dian, vol.4, 1976 reprint: 2287).&f=false

 

[GeraltofRivia]

The chinese were not as a matter of fact Zheng He was a chinese to begin with and muslims flourished in China sacrificed their lives as well as there was a statue in China forgot the name which depicts the loyalty. But recent emphasis on sinofication of everything and anything is in contrast with the treatment muslims got earlier . Recent heavy handed approach even on Huis proved that too. I would blame Xi for that I don't know what cultural utopia he wants but throughout history as far as I read Chinese were much more pluralistic in their attitude.

The sinofication you are referring to, from a Chinese point of view, is a process of modernization. An analogy I should point out is that China has also been regarded as being westernized, which is true to certain degree. We have abandoned the robe that our ancestors were wearing for thousands years and started to wear the short, western like clothes. We have introduced changes to many other aspects of our country. To us, the goal is to modernize everything, increase productivity, and finally bring prosperity to all citizens in the country.

Now the modernization has started to touch the less developed regions in China. The things that are determined as unproductive or backward would need to be adjusted, it may relate to work arrangement, education, housing, social structure, etc. If one thinks them as change in culture, I do not disagree at all. However they need to be done to lift up China from backwardness and to be able to compete with advanced western countries in the clash of civilization.

 

[OIO]

If China gives a bit consideration to Uighurs China will gain much more while losing a little . The Uighur is China's achilles heel , if they don't go for such a heavy handed approach making everyone same rather go for soft approach by discussion and mitigating the differences and allowing a cultural pluralism to flourish with their own laws and customs in a autonomy then it would be much more rewarding .

Whatever how badly India treat Muslims is not a problem to the West, China is treating Muslims very well. The West wants China become Yugoslavia but this will not happen.

Don't ask autonomy while liberalism is dieing. It's childish.

The Turks are going be tied with Moscow so no worries the west reaaprochment is getting highly unlikely besides Erdogan is more interested in staying power so Uyghurs are least of concern


Unlike Russia China sees giving autonomy as sigh of weakness that's their mindset as for Uyghurs there is division as you see most Pakistanis are Sinophiles still

Erdogan is playing the game beyond the capabilities of Turkey not only Uighur issue.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

Whatever how badly India treat Muslims is not a problem to the West, China is treating Muslims very well. The West wants China become Yugoslavia but this will not happen.

Don't ask autonomy while liberalism is dieing. It's childish.



Erdogan is playing the game beyond the capabilities of Turkey not only Uighur issue.

This is classical whataboutery just because India is doing it we should do it too. Now a days in the age of telecommunication when media is everywhere perception matters a lot. Just look at India even with so much bad things happening in India a good PR done by earlier people helped India securing many things while Pakistan got blamed for everything and slapped with sanctions after sanctions . If PR was bad then China would not have spent billions on it . This issues are like sores and if not treated properly within time it can be proven fatal.

The sinofication you are referring to, from a Chinese point of view, is a process of modernization. An analogy I should point out is that China has also been regarded as being westernized, which is true to certain degree. We have abandoned the robe that our ancestors were wearing for thousands years and started to wear the short, western like clothes. We have introduced changes to many other aspects of our country. To us, the goal is to modernize everything, increase productivity, and finally bring prosperity to all citizens in the country.

Now the modernization has started to touch the less developed regions in China. The things that are determined as unproductive or backward would need to be adjusted, it may relate to work arrangement, education, housing, social structure, etc. If one thinks them as change in culture, I do not disagree at all. However they need to be done to lift up China from backwardness and to be able to compete with advanced western countries in the clash of civilization.

A country who forgets the past and roots will loose everything. That is why Xi is trying to promote traditional chinese medicines which have little scientific value while ignoring the core of the culture .

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Erdogan is playing the game beyond the capabilities of Turkey not only Uighur issue.

You misjudged him, he is far more partial to China than alternatives in Turkey.

China's policy on Turkey and the Muslim world is under developed and self-destructive.

With the exodus of Americans from Afghanistan and a rising Pakistan, Islamization of Central Asia will be in full effect.

A country who forgets the past and roots will loose everything. That is why Xi is trying to promote traditional chinese medicines which have little scientific value while ignoring the core of the culture .

I like the Chinese focus on traditional medicine. It also gives a place for Islamic medicine. I know one Muslim physician who lost their license for prescribing traditional medicine, in conjuction with allopathic medication.

China took them and employed them to do research on black seed and other Islamic medicines.

China and Turkey are the most advanced when it comes to this subject.

Also Greek Medicine and traditional medicine in Pakistan is popular as well.

I still have not found a better treatment for cold and flu than Joshanda. I used to bring it for Arabs and other Muslim brothers in undergrad when they were sick. Alhamdulilah, shifaa of Allah swt.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

You misjudged him, he is far more partial to China than alternatives in Turkey.

China's policy on Turkey and the Muslim world is under developed and self-destructive.

With the exodus of Americans from Afghanistan and a rising Pakistan, Islamization of Central Asia will be in full effect.



I like the Chinese focus on traditional medicine. It also gives a place for Islamic medicine. I know one Muslim physician who lost their license for prescribing traditional medicine, in conjuction with allopathic medication.

China took them and employed them to do research on black seed and other Islamic medicines.

China and Turkey are the most advanced when it comes to this subject.

Also Greek Medicine and traditional medicine in Pakistan is popular as well.

I still have not found a better treatment for cold and flu than Joshanda. I used to bring it for Arabs and other Muslim brothers in undergrad when they were sick. Alhamdulilah, shifaa of Allah swt.

I am not saying the medicines are useless in fact I am admirer of that also a fact to know chinese scientist Tu Youyou got her nobel prize in medicine in researching a plant which is been used in traditional chinese medicine . The plant is Artemis annua and the compound artemesin is a compound that is use to treat malaria.

However the traditional medicines needs to undergo rigorous scientific methods to produce the results which it originally claims to be be as well as we need mass production of the compound so that it can be used as viable treatment. That is why you read in news about the anti cancer property of turmeric but the compounds are volatile and is not suited for mass production .

We just need proper research on these methods and if they pass the scientific methods I don't see nay reason to objectify it.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I am not saying the medicines are useless in fact I am admirer of that also a fact to know chinese scientist Tu Youyou got her nobel prize in medicine in researching a plant which is been used in traditional chinese medicine . The plant is Artemis annua and the compound artemesin is a compound that is use to treat malaria.

However the traditional medicines needs to undergo rigorous scientific methods to produce the results which it originally claims to be be as well as we need mass production of the compound so that it can be used as viable treatment. That is why you read in news about the anti cancer property of turmeric but the compounds are volatile and is not suited for mass production .

We just need proper research on these methods and if they pass the scientific methods I don't see nay reason to objectify it.

Are a physician brother?

I might be a minority of Western-educated physicians, but I admire our much vilified Hakeems of Pakistan. I am a firm believer in alternative medicine, including chiropractic care and homeopathy.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

Are a physician brother?

I might be a minority of Western-educated physicians, but I admire our much vilified Hakeems of Pakistan. I am a firm believer in alternative medicine, including chiropractic care and homeopathy.

No no I am not. I just have a degree in biology and we had to study about all these especially about plants which has medicinal properties . Since you are a enthusiast I would recommend you a book. Please go through the book .

Hope brother you are doing well and good , it is a tough situation

https://books.google.co.in/books/ab...AAMAAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y