What's new

We Are All Harappans

Where is the evidence that this alleged "Harappan" site is from the same civilisation as the real one based in Pakistan? This one could belong to a COMPLETELY different civilisation.

By comparison of the road, drainage, pottery, type of terracotta used, bronze (Esp composition) in use. This was how Dholavira, Farmana and other such sites found in India were connected to larger IVC before any DNA finds occured.

This is how they delineated different neolithic, copper and bronze civilisations in Europe and Middle East, there were distinct cultural markers on the evidence of dolems, habitations, burial grounds etc

The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective by Gregory L. Possehl is a good read if you are interested on this process w.r.t Dholvira and others
 
.
5500 BC though...that gives Mehrgarh a real run for its money. We will have to see what the specific civilisation accomplishments through the dating are though....like what is the absolute oldest pottery and bronze found here.

Till DNA samples can be found in the Pakistan side (if any even exist), there are still other comparisons to be made on how connected the Hisar find is to earlier IVC finds. Just like how they can delineate other civilisations in fertile crescent, Europe etc from each other when they were in close proximity and contact.

This will all be discussed and analysed by the top archaelogical fora, experts and university teams in the world in the years to come now.



Exactly. Until solid evidence appears we can't make ANY conclusions, just conjectures at best. There's even been rumours that the IVC has many similarities with that of the ancient Sumerians. Some have even suggested that Ancient Sumeria and the IVC were in fact the SAME civilisation. But it's just speculation and conjectures at best until there is concrete evidence.

By comparison of the road, drainage, pottery, type of terracotta used, bronze (Esp composition) in use. This was how Dholavira, Farmana and other such sites found in India were connected to larger IVC before any DNA finds occured.

This is how they delineated different neolithic, copper and bronze civilisations in Europe and Middle East, there were distinct cultural markers on the evidence of dolems, habitations, burial grounds etc

The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective by Gregory L. Possehl is a good read if you are interested on this process w.r.t Dholvira and others




Where these the same in both india and Pakistan? Do you have a link to a credible source?
 
.
Exactly. Until solid evidence appears we can't make ANY conclusions, just conjectures at best. There's even been rumours that the IVC has many similarities with that of the ancient Sumerians. Some have even suggested that Ancient Sumeria and the IVC were in fact the SAME civilisation. But it's just speculation and conjectures at best until there is concrete evidence.

True much work remains to be done till we can be absolutely conclusive. But there is thing as high probabilities etc, sometimes there just isnt enough that remains today that can be found to get to 100% certain, but only to "largely agreed" etc.. these are early days with the Hisar find still, let us see how it goes. Like another has said, Mohenjo daro itself remains largely unexcavated and who knows how many others in region are not even found yet. This is a long drawn out process.

Where these the same in both india and Pakistan? Do you have a link to a credible source?

You can read some of the book I was suggesting here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pmAuAsi4ePIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you access the whole book, you can check out the primary sources given too....I haven't gotten that deep into it myself so TIFWIW.
 
.
Whats up with black ganga plain dwellers trying to link with the land of Pakistan???
 
. .
True much work remains to be done till we can be absolutely conclusive. But there is thing as high probabilities etc, sometimes there just isnt enough that remains today that can be found to get to 100% certain, but only to "largely agreed" etc.. these are early days with the Hisar find still, let us see how it goes. Like another has said, Mohenjo daro itself remains largely unexcavated and who knows how many others in region are not even found yet. This is a long drawn out process.



You can read some of the book I was suggesting here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pmAuAsi4ePIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you access the whole book, you can check out the primary sources given too....I haven't gotten that deep into it myself so TIFWIW.



Thanks. Will definitely look in to it.
 
.
Primitive aboriginals from the Ganga still at it. Trying to leverage the few traces of IVC on the borders of Pakistan to make it like all of Ganga including the Dravids have a antiquity to be proud of. This is as pathetic as Black Africans from Sudan trying to claim Nile and Ancient Egyptian as "African civilization". They call that theft "Afrocentrism". We all know the truth. And we all know the truth about 95% of Gangadesh. This [below] is my thought about it ~ Gangacentrism. Moving the IVC east.


P64r96z.jpg
 
.
Didnt necessary disprove old notions. The samples hold they were a mix of M.E. farmers(first agriculturalist) and S. Asian hunter and gathers. With an absences of the current C. Asian element that's in all of S. Asia today(This is a big piece missing), mostly in N. India and Pakistan. So there was a mass migration from the C. Asia into India. Which pushed and mixed with the older group.

Similar thing happened in Europe, mostly Northern and Eastern. When C. Asians migrated mixed with the M.E. farmer(first agriculturalist), European hunter gatherer mixed group.

Europe and India had similar scenarios. First wave was the hunter and gathers, then was the agriculturalists from the Middle East, this mix formed unique populations. Then came the mobile pastoralist from C. Asia. Which again created unique populations.

I find hilarious that people wanna bring racism into the mix here. If you are from S. Asia, you too have that old tribal hunter and gatherer strand. It's one of the components that make someone S. Asian.
 
Last edited:
.
Indians are still finding who they are, meanwhile they know exact origin of all Pakistanis
What an intelligent nation
 
.
@Suriya @Nilgiri

Here comes the second part.

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazi...-regions-across-2-million-sq-km/300464?scroll

'Harappans United Regions Across 2 Million Sq KM’
Prof V.S. Shinde, senior archaeologist and vice-chancellor of Deccan College, explains how Rakhigarhi extends our understanding of the Harappan civilisation.
Sunil Menon, Siddhartha Mishra INTERVIEWS V.S. Shinde
cover_story_11_20180813_630_630.jpg

Photograph by Jitender Gupta

Prof V.S. Shinde, senior archaeologist and vice-chancellor of Deccan College, Pune, is the one steering the research at the Harappan site of Rakhigarhi. In an interview with Sunil Menon and Siddhartha Mishra, he explains how Rakhigarhi extends our understanding of the Harappan civilisation. Excerpts:

Sunil Menon: Prof Shinde, what does Rakhigarhi tell us?

V.S. Shinde: We had very little idea about the regional diversity during Harappan times. We always think the Harappan civilisation was homogeneous. In some respects, that’s true. But there were different ecological zones, and you find diversity flowing from that. Like, Gujarat has a slightly different variety compared to the Saraswati region. But overall there is a concept of one nation. This concept was introduced by the Harappans.

Read Also: We Are All Harappans

Menon: From archaeological findings, how do you arrive at something as abstract as a nation?

Shinde: See, the Harappan culture occupied about 2 million sq km. Over this vast area, they established some kind of uniform culture. This shows they had united different regions. Not by force, but by mutual consent.

Siddhartha Mishra: Because they never had an army…

Shinde: Yes, they never had one. So we wanted to understand the specific variation of culture in this part. What are its features, how that came into being. We use two terms: one is Harappan culture, the other is Harappan civilisation. The Harappan culture’s time-span is from 5500 BC to 1500 BC. But there’s one phase within that where we find tremendous development and prosperity, where they started developing cities and towns. That’s the Harappan civilisation phase: from 2600 BC to about 1900 BC. We haven’t really understood how the transformation occurred. We wanted to demonstrate that in the structures, in the pottery, other elements of material culture. And this site is ideal for that as we have the early Harappan phase and then the mature phase too.

Menon: Rakhigarhi also unsettles the idea that the Indus was the centre of gravity of Harappan culture, with a few radiating elements. The centre of gravity itself seems to be shifting here…given its size and time-scale.

Shinde: This whole area, the ancient Saraswati region, is so important. Two-thirds of the Harappan sites are in this region. And maybe not many sites in the Indus region.

Menon: But the Indus as a coherent centre also sits well with the idea of a site like Mehrgarh in Balochistan, evolving from the Neolithic to eventually give us the big cities.

Shinde: So now we have a site like Bhirrana. As old as Mehrgarh. That is, 6500-7000 BC.

Mishra: All of them coexisting….

Shinde: Exactly, and they were in touch with each other, all material developments were simultaneous. So we cannot pinpoint the Sindh region as the nucleus, from where it begins to disperse. It’s not like that. The whole map was occupied by the early communities, evolving simultaneously; ideas flowed from one region to another because of constant contact right from the beginning.

Mishra: Are there cultural differences between the sites?

Shinde: You mostly find the same culture, with a little variation, maybe because of different food habits, or different traditions. Otherwise it was a more or less uniform culture. The same 1.73 gram weight, maybe a slight variation in the shape of pottery…that’s all.

“We cannot pinpoint the Sindhu region as the nucleus from where the Harappan culture begins to disperse. It’s not like that.”

Menon: Harappan cities were even internally heterogeneous...we can talk about shared culture, not ethnicity....

Shinde: We don’t have enough data—very little from Sindh, a bit from Punjab. We have DNA data from Rakhigarhi; we are in the final phase of studying it, but we cannot generalise from that. I believe there were different types of ethnic groups across the Harappan map.

We now have an idea about the cultural evolution in Rakhigarhi. It’s not like the concept of the city came suddenly. The early farmers around 5500 BC were rural; they lived in small circular huts. In the next stage, we get rectangular structures. In the third stage, there’s better planning, bigger rectangular structures. Then they transform it into a city. Elaborate planning, the concept of drainage, bathrooms.

Mishra: And what brings on the decline?

Shinde: Aridity. The Saraswati slowly dries out…probably they had to leave the site itself. The Harappans had flourishing trade with the west, particularly with Egypt. We have archaeological data as well as literary data: the Mesopotamian texts mention it. Of the goods coming from Meluhha, they talk about ‘the red metal’ (copper), articles made of red stones, the semi-precious carnelian, various spices, ivory.

Menon: Was Yamuna the outer limit?

Shinde: Actually, the Gangetic plain is the main boundary, beyond that are zones of Harappan influence. Harappans may have supplied Bihar and its neighbours with technology. There’s influence up to Jammu and the entire Makran coast and Iran. You find different categories of settlements, all in a symbiotic relationship. Out of 2,000 settlements, we have identified five proper cities. Then maybe half-a-dozen towns like Kalibangan or Lothal, and a network of agricultural settlements, villages, and manufacturing centres like Chanhudaro. Also, a large number of ports and small settlements for exploitation of local resources. There’s a pattern of interaction between the cities and the rest.

Menon: Do you find any influence on the Harappans from the outside?

Shinde: We don’t really see that. Some marginal influence perhaps, like the Mesopotamian figure of Gilgamesh shows up in a Harappan form, that’s all. What sets them apart from contemporary civilisations is this: the Harappans did not have Giza, they did not build pyramids or monumental structures like those. They were very capable of building those, having acquired a lot of wealth from the western trade. Instead, the Harappans used that wealth to create healthy, hygienic living cities for the welfare of the common people. That was the difference in philosophy. So, right from the beginning, we were practical people. Only if you emphasise these aspects will people realise the importance of this civilisation.

Mishra: How were they governed?

Shinde: They had a two-tier administrative system, such as today’s. Kautilya had these ideas because the system was already there before his time. We talk of Kautilya’s Arthashastra, but the ideas were very much there from before. Our system is, in fact, derived from theirs. We still have the panchayat system…that continues from Harappan times.

The Pakistani archaeologist Rafiq Mughal observed that there were two kinds of capitals during those times. In each ecological zone, you find one big settlement. That acted like some kind of a regional capital. Probably, some decisions were taken at the capital. Such as, ‘What should be the brick size?’, ‘What should be the denominations of the seals?’. Then the regional capital enforced those. This is how they maintained uniformity over such a large area.



“Harappans were quite capable of building monumental structures like the pyramids, but used their wealth to create happy, living cities.’
Mishra: And religion?

Shinde: We don’t have much evidence. But one thing is clear: they were not practising religion as a community, like today. Maybe it was an individual thing. You find a few figurines—probably they were worshipped. The proto-Shiva, a few linga types, but most probably they were in households. We don’t know. But you do not find temples as such.

Menon: So potentially different peoples, perhaps even speaking different languages, sharing only a kind of unified system….

Shinde: Exactly. They must have had some kind of uniform writing system. Right from Afghanistan or the Iranian border, we find the same sort of letters. Not much difference. Maybe parallel languages were spoken. Maybe there were dialects. But the writing system was the same. Like today’s Devnagari is used by both Marathi and Hindi.
==========================================================

@Indus Pakistan Man you are loosing your Indus Valley Civilization. It dont belongs to you neither you have genes of Harappan People, that pride is also held by the Gangadeshies. Apart from that the Centre of This civilization is shifting towards India along with Saraswati Valley.

Now just Watch this research done in India how Vedas and Saraswati and Harappans are one and the same!!



 
.
I ain't no Harrapa barrapa, I belong to those who massacred and subjugated these filthy Neolithics.
 
.
It is what we call glory hunters.

The people of the land with solid lineage to it , culturally, ethnically, linguistically, are THE custodians of the land and it's history. No OUTSIDER can claim it. We are the Indus and Indus is us.
You are just Muslims, nothing more than that.
If you really want to claim "historic glory land" which became your territory by default after India's partition in 1947, then learn to respect your ancestors, learn to respect their faith and culture. But you consider yourself "aulaad" of invaders of Bharat .
The truth is Pakistanis are suffering with huge identity crisis after partition bcz of "hate" flows in your pulses for your "real" father. You want to adopt a fake father from the history.
 
.
You are just Muslims
And you lot are just aboriginals from the Ganga. Nothing less nothing more. Just about still struggling to learn the basics of civilization such as toilet manners.

We of course are the nobility of the mighty Indus. Pakistan is the modern iteration of story that began on the banks of Indus 10,000 years ago. Since you suffer from some form of schizophrenia I will give you a lesson on where Indus Valley is and then referance it with the cradle of the aboriginals - the Holy Ganga. And hey look where Harappa is? Surprise, surprise it is distal and 1,000 miles from where many Indian live.



3xwUZ7Z.png



46aB9e7.jpg




Prof V.S. Shinde,
Yeh. Yeh. More bullshat. More Horseplay at Harappa.

"The Indus Valley Decipherment Hoax

MICHAEL WITZEL, a Harvard University Indologist, and STEVE FARMER, a comparative historian, report on media hype, faked data, and Hindutva propaganda in recent claims that the Indus Valley script has been decoded."



https://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1720/17200040.htm
 
Last edited:
. . .
Back
Top Bottom