Was it possible.

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Hmm, I see. In response to your earlier post, hadn't the French chosen to not give us their avionics because of Indian opposition?

And also, the war will probably not last long. Many of the major players in the war are nuclear powers and, as Israel has already promised, if they find themselves in a losing position, they'll probably fire off their whole damn arsenal, potentially destroying... well, everything.

a) They opted out of the EURO fighter project as they don't trust europe
b) They don't get along with USA.
c) They don't have a political say in Security counsil which bothers them
d) Actually they don't trust anyone for their airforce

They had history of problm with England, Spain , other european nations etc

They say one thing but their actions are opposite - so its hard to predict how they view themselves in global alliance

Their actions are indicating alignment with Russia - after all Russia provides whole europe with energy

Because the nations are nuclear powers so stakes are high ...

French opposition was just to align with Russia by selling strategic naval vessels and then also helping Russian Ally India with opposition to avionics , they also built a base up in UAE which was pretty smooth raising no objection from Pakistan as we were promised a nuclear deal (which never materialized) the truths is no one knows what the french are up to

Won't be a long war like WW2 would be max 5-6 months long after that it will be just ppl trying to find resources to survive for 200-300 years

Life will continue on planet, in 200 years after it just not alot of humans will be driving cars most likely we will be on horses

 

[Flayre]

Because the nations are nuclear powers so stakes are high ...

French opposition was just to align with Russia by selling strategic naval vessels and then also helping Russian Ally India with opposition to avionics , they also built a base up in UAE which was pretty smooth raising no objection from Pakistan as we were promised a nuclear deal (which never materialized) the truths is no one knows what the french are up to


Won't be a long war like WW2 would be max 5-6 months long after that it will be just ppl trying to find resources to survive for 200-300 years

Life will continue on planet, in 200 years after it just not alot of humans will be driving cars most likely we will be on horses

Ahh, so in the end. There is no winner. No matter which country wins, humanity, as a race, will have lost.

The stakes are truly high.


And, for this deal that never went through, shouldn't there be some kind of contract for it? Seems like a pretty obvious thing to do if you're going to be giving another country an asset, to first make sure you're going to get something in return.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Ahh, so in the end. There is no winner. No matter which country wins, humanity, as a race, will have lost.

The stakes are truly high.


And, for this deal that never went through, shouldn't there be some kind of contract for it? Seems like a pretty obvious thing to do if you're going to be giving another country an asset, to first make sure you're going to get something in return.

I am sure things will clear up in up coming 4-5 years, as far as Pakistan is concerned we have solid alliance with US and China and KSA/Turkey and that is quite important strategic partnership for us interm of national defence

 

[Nishan_101]

First of all for all the members is that U.S will not and never give us the F-22 Raptor or even the F-35. Even if we had requested for F-16E/F Block-60, they might have denied it. I was saying that (you people should read it again) we must have negotiated with the U.S on earlier stages like in 2002/3 and finalizing all the deals in 2004 by pressurizing a bit for sake of War on Terror to U.S and asking for our own 28 F-16 A/B Block-15 with Upgrade under EDA including our own inventory of 32 F-16 A/B Block-15 to same MLU-3 level which is same as F-16 C/D Block-52 and involving our own engineers and technicians in the upgrade at Lockheed Martin plant in U.S instead of delaying with Turkish TuAI. To gain the upgrade kits of 16 C-130B/E and to buy weapons for the rest of the money.

 

[MastanKhan]

Asalam-O-Alikum,
Here i wanted to discuss about the aqusition by PAF and can it be like that:
Note:(please discuss in reality anyone who wanted to criticize could just get himself away from this thread)
If our politicians and our ministry of defence tried(in 2003 and finalizing it in 2005) like to engaged with the congress and Pentagon to use the funds of EDA Program (in which PAF might have a share of $4-5 Billion out of $14 Billion, if im wrong correct me)
1.To release 28 F-16A/B Block-15 & start the up gradation of the 28 as well as 32 F-16A/B Block-15 under the EDA program with PAF technicians and Engineers involved, instead of delaying and doing it in Turkey.
2.To provide about 16 Avionics kits,newer engines with may be Propellers for the C-130s that are in PAF fleet.
3.To provide the weapons for the rest of the remaining money like Aim-120C, Aim-9X, JDAMs, Paveway LGBs, SFW(Sensor Fused Weapons), AGM-88 HARM, Harpoon and other stand-off missiles.



Hi,

Are you asking if all this stuff we could have had by 2005---!

We could have had the items that we needed and wanted , only if the pak knew how to work them properly.Tragically the pak didnot have any strategy and gameplan----they were clueless what to do with america---they just blundered into one thing after the other.

It all came down to a truthfull analysis of the situation at hand---across the border in afghanistan---across the border in india---iran and across the oceans in the U S of A---.

In this meet your GOD moment---pakistan failed miserably---it was completely unprepared to meet the need of the moment on the fly---pak could not let go of its hatred against the U S in this crucial hour of make or break fortune---it forgot about the other parties standing by---.

And pakistan forgot to play in front of the most important part of the pentagon----the american public---it blundered one more time in close to 15 years---not recognizing the strength of the american public---.

Pak played for the american govt----but failed to perform the song and dance for the american household----the most important part of the american decision making process.

In its incompetence of understanding the american system---pak didnot realize their blunder right to this day-----.

For that reason I stated that there are some very good moderators on this board---average to good Think Tank members over here----but none of them have experience of corporate america except for our retired colleague NIAZ-----the same with pak millitary and govt.

As much the american news media was poisioning the americans against pakistan----pak was not doing anything to counter it----the image of pakistan was getting worst and worst by day in the public eye and pak cared less.

Thus came the A Q Khan scenario---the pak millitary's half hearted incursions to taliban / al qaeda areas---letting the enemies escape who were surrounded by the millitary---letting the al qaeda take millitary as prisoners---a whole battalion strength of officers and soldiers laying down their arms to al qaeda---all a few example of where pakistani thinking was----it was not directed at its welfare and strength---but rather busy pleasing the altar ego.

Pakistan then marketed this war very poorly in pakistan and the tribal areas---govt spokes people were ill informed and not upto the task to take the challenge of ending the war on the slopes of tora bora / hindu kush.

When pak saw the Northern alliance taking charge in afg---it should have reacted at a lightening speed to get its millitary ready for the inevitable across the border----should have worked extremely hard to stop the movement of mujahideen from pak to afg at any cost---would have started a massive propaganda campaign against any pakistani involvement against AFG---but again totally lost in themseleves and not recognizing the consequences. One failure after the other---one blunder followed the other----pakistanis wanted tomake another vietnam for the americans in afg----having short sightedness of not realizing what had happened to vietnam and its population of making a vietnam for the america.

George Bush delieverd us a cash cow and a golden duck laying the golden eggs---we slaughtered the cow and ate the duck and had the feast for a night---after that it was gloomy.

We must be thankful and greatful to the blunders of the american forces and their generals---the first 4 and their sec def---for screwing things up real bad for them---if it wasn't for the american Tommy Franks---we would have been deeper into----.

 

[Nishan_101]

:[/QUOTE]:It all came down to a truthfull analysis of the situation at hand---across the border in afghanistan---across the border in india---iran and across the oceans in the U S of A---.

In this meet your GOD moment---pakistan failed miserably---it was completely unprepared to meet the need of the moment on the fly---pak could not let go of its hatred against the U S in this crucial hour of make or break fortune---it forgot about the other parties standing by---.

And pakistan forgot to play in front of the most important part of the pentagon----the american public---it blundered one more time in close to 15 years---not recognizing the strength of the american public---.

Pak played for the american govt----but failed to perform the song and dance for the american household----the most important part of the american decision making process.

In its incompetence of understanding the american system---pak didnot realize their blunder right to this day-----.

For that reason I stated that there are some very good moderators on this board---average to good Think Tank members over here----but none of them have experience of corporate america except for our retired colleague NIAZ-----the same with pak millitary and govt.

As much the american news media was poisioning the americans against pakistan----pak was not doing anything to counter it----the image of pakistan was getting worst and worst by day in the public eye and pak cared less.

Thus came the A Q Khan scenario---the pak millitary's half hearted incursions to taliban / al qaeda areas---letting the enemies escape who were surrounded by the millitary---letting the al qaeda take millitary as prisoners---a whole battalion strength of officers and soldiers laying down their arms to al qaeda---all a few example of where pakistani thinking was----it was not directed at its welfare and strength---but rather busy pleasing the altar ego.

Pakistan then marketed this war very poorly in pakistan and the tribal areas---govt spokes people were ill informed and not upto the task to take the challenge of ending the war on the slopes of tora bora / hindu kush.

When pak saw the Northern alliance taking charge in afg---it should have reacted at a lightening speed to get its millitary ready for the inevitable across the border----should have worked extremely hard to stop the movement of mujahideen from pak to afg at any cost---would have started a massive propaganda campaign against any pakistani involvement against AFG---but again totally lost in themseleves and not recognizing the consequences. One failure after the other---one blunder followed the other----pakistanis wanted tomake another vietnam for the americans in afg----having short sightedness of not realizing what had happened to vietnam and its population of making a vietnam for the america.

George Bush delieverd us a cash cow and a golden duck laying the golden eggs---we slaughtered the cow and ate the duck and had the feast for a night---after that it was gloomy.

We must be thankful and greatful to the blunders of the american forces and their generals---the first 4 and their sec def---for screwing things up real bad for them---if it wasn't for the american Tommy Franks---we would have been deeper into----.[/QUOTE]

Ok i get it. You people are saying that U.S will not going to give weapons for that EDA money for that you may check the new few months before that U.S has handed over about 1000 MK-82 Bombs(which you say its useless for U.S) and they have also confirmed that they are going to give about 1000 LGBs (for taking out insurgents targets). And our F-16 are upgrading under the money of EDA. Go and ask some senior members about the news.
And ok if U.S is not willing to give the weapons that i mentioned earlier to PAF, but should try to negotiate with the Russians for engines and get 50 J-10/S into PAF fleet like Between 2005-2009 and about 100 J-10B(with Chinese WS-10A)

 

[somebozo]

Well the other side of the coin is that Taliban reeled soo out of control that they refuse to heed any calls by the very ISI which supported them and Saudis who funded them hence ended up drilling hole in their own plate. Not only they stopped there but represented aggressive solidarity with OBL in an attempt to create "legends of loyality"

So in essense they were bunch of self-delusioned fanatics. However, Pakistan never ran a media campaign in US highlight its sacrifice in two afghan wars as well swaying US public opnion. And today most of the american stereotypes about Pakistan are those harvested in them by bigoted Indian media such as:

All Pakistanis were Indians before
All Pakistanis are taliban / terrorist
Pakistan is a dirty backward country
Pakistan is dirt poor!

 

[MastanKhan]

Ok i get it. You people are saying that U.S will not going to give weapons for that EDA money for that you may check the new few months before that U.S has handed over about 1000 MK-82 Bombs(which you say its useless for U.S) and they have also confirmed that they are going to give about 1000 LGBs (for taking out insurgents targets). And our F-16 are upgrading under the money of EDA. Go and ask some senior members about the news.
And ok if U.S is not willing to give the weapons that i mentioned earlier to PAF, but should try to negotiate with the Russians for engines and get 50 J-10/S into PAF fleet like Between 2005-2009 and about 100 J-10B(with Chinese WS-10A)[/QUOTE]



Hi,

You have to bring in the importance of time into the equation as well---time is the most important commodity---every discussion that we have---we have to make it priority one----time---time---time---all this equipment would have been had yars in advance---if pakistan the nation would have stood together as one unit against the threat---al qaeda / taliban.

Basically the nation failed----the public was equally clueless of the enormity of the situation---they were in self denial---and openly angry at america---well---being angry was fine momentarily----being negligent to the needs of the nation was criminal. This anger by the pak public against the u s was carried on for too long---if you have a disagreement----get done wioth it and move ahead----pak decided to get stuck in one position for many a years and cost itself big time.

Pakistan will do everything possible to negotiate with russia to what it needs----but will russia give in to our needs---it is up for debate now and the results we will see shortly.

 

[Nishan_101]

Ok i get it. You people are saying that U.S will not going to give weapons for that EDA money for that you may check the new few months before that U.S has handed over about 1000 MK-82 Bombs(which you say its useless for U.S) and they have also confirmed that they are going to give about 1000 LGBs (for taking out insurgents targets). And our F-16 are upgrading under the money of EDA. Go and ask some senior members about the news.
And ok if U.S is not willing to give the weapons that i mentioned earlier to PAF, but should try to negotiate with the Russians for engines and get 50 J-10/S into PAF fleet like Between 2005-2009 and about 100 J-10B(with Chinese WS-10A)

Hi,

You have to bring in the importance of time into the equation as well---time is the most important commodity---every discussion that we have---we have to make it priority one----time---time---time---all this equipment would have been had yars in advance---if pakistan the nation would have stood together as one unit against the threat---al qaeda / taliban.

Basically the nation failed----the public was equally clueless of the enormity of the situation---they were in self denial---and openly angry at america---well---being angry was fine momentarily----being negligent to the needs of the nation was criminal. This anger by the pak public against the u s was carried on for too long---if you have a disagreement----get done wioth it and move ahead----pak decided to get stuck in one position for many a years and cost itself big time.

Pakistan will do everything possible to negotiate with russia to what it needs----but will russia give in to our needs---it is up for debate now and the results we will see shortly.[/QUOTE]

Man India is playing very big game with Pakistan. the reason that French refuse to give the weapons & Avionics to us because of the fact that IAF has decided that they will buy 40 Rafeal. I think you heard in that way Dassault willing to sell 40 Rafeal to IAF other than the 126 MMRCA competition. And they are buying 16+30 MiG-29K's from Russia and upgrading its fleet of 65 MiG-29's as well as buying some new ones. They have already reached the contract to further produce 42 SU-30 MKI's at HAL, this will make the nos to a level of 270 & may be 30-40 more in the coming years to reach 300+. And on the other hand they are buying choppers from Russia and Il-76 as platform for AEW&Cs & additional Il-78 Midas. All this is just about Air Force & other disciplines are quite with big orders.
They are going to give 126-200 or may be 300 when license production kick-off. 6 C-130J followed by another 2-3 batches of 6 C-130Js and the replacement of Il-76 fromIAF by C-17s that has already been selected and the purchase of 8 P-8 MPA and may be followed by an other 8 P-8 MPA by 2015. And more n more n more from E.U/Russia& U.S in coming decades