Was Iran an Islamic state before the revolution

[KaiserX]

Anyway to answer the question of the thread. Yes. If by Islamic state means that the majority of the population was Muslim and most laws were derived from Islamic laws. So yes, Islam was an Islamic/Muslim state prior to 1979 as well.



Shia Muslims are an integral part of Islam. The oldest Shia communities emerged in the Arab world (what is today KSA) and the Sunni-Shia split is merely internal Arab imperial politics. That and some relatively few theological differences none of which cannot be overcome.

Which respected Islamic scholars claim that Shia Muslims are not Muslims?

Cursing sahaba is islamic? Putting lanat on hazrat abubaker, Uthman, Omar during namaz is islamic? Beating yourself is islamic? Putting 12 imams above all prophets except the last is islamic? Idolizing Hazrat Ali/hussain by having pictures of them is islamic? Praying and calling upon dead imams in namaz or at their graves is islamic? Beating yourself is islamic? Claiming quran is incomplete and will be complete when final mehdi arrives is islamic?

 

[Kaleem.61]

What is Islamic state by the way ? Even prophet Muhammad never stated Madinah as Islamic State.

See Madinah Charter, it is basically nation state.

What will you call Madina an Islamic state or non Islamic state? <A state founded by Final Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (saw)!>
Pakistan was said be Islamic state.

 

[Indos]

What will you call Madina an Islamic state or non Islamic state? <A state founded by Final Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (saw)!>
Pakistan was said be Islamic state.

What is important is whether the Shariah Law is implemented or not ? Prophet Muhammad never call Madinah as Islamic state since it will problematic as there are Jews and Christian as well that according to Madinah Charter will be treated equally, just like Muslim. But of course the Shariah Law will be implemented and all of the citizen must obey.

I mean not Shariah Law with Iranian version, but real one as in Quran there is this

The Indonesian society is following the verse and end up majority of our women use hijab where those who dont have freedom to wear non hijab dress.

Despite nation state, it doesnt mean God is put behind

Indonesia state ideology where Tauhid is the heart of the ideology and all other principles are inline with Islamic teaching, including Democracy which is basically has the same principle with the word Syura ( consultation ) found in Surah As-Syura in Quran.

Despite nation state, Indonesia is part of OIC and shows we are still connected with Muslim Brotherhood which is endorsed by Quran and Hadith

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We have state Madrasah where there is one of our state madrasah there is even better in quality than many state school and private school as their rank is the first based on the nationwide state owned university examination ( SOE universities in Indonesia are the best universities)

We have religious Minister that manage Islamic matter like Hajj, Marriage, Umrah, Madrasah, and it also manage Islamic Court that is related to social problem like Divorce and others

For shariah law, there are many that have already been in our positive Law despite we dont call our nation as Islamic state

Like in Shariah Economy, Shariah Stock Exchange, Shariah Bank, etc and our SOE Shariah Bank is part of 10 biggest bank in Indonesia.

Indonesia Controls 23% of Global Sharia Bonds Issuance: Finance Minister

Since 2018, the government has issued $3.5 billion worth of Sukuk with competitive returns to investors.

jakartaglobe.id

There is mandatory halal certificate for food and beverages, and mandatory halal certificate for chicken, goat and cow slaughter

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What is left is just criminal Law, but it can be change just by our Parliament

Govt pushes ahead with revised Criminal Code, calling it ‘historic mission’

Wearing masks of national heroes, People’s Alliance for Democratic Justice activists rally during the weekly Car Free Day event near the Hotel Indonesia traffic circle on Sept. 15, 2019, to reject the draft revision of the Criminal Code.(JP/Wendra Ajistyatama)

News Desk (The Jakarta Post)
PREMIUM
Jakarta ● Sun, June 26, 2022

Despite widespread calls to pause deliberations on the revised Criminal Code so that public concerns can be addressed, the Law and Human Rights Ministry expects the legislation to be “expedited” for passage in the coming months.

Deputy Law and Human Rights Minister Edward OS Hiariej, a former law professor at Gadjah Mada University, said that although the draft revisions to the Criminal Code would be unlikely make it to a House of Representatives plenary session in July, a deal could be struck in August to pass the bill into law.

The deputy minister said the government was on “a historic mission” to decolonize the current Criminal Code, which is founded on Dutch colonial law.

Govt pushes ahead with revised Criminal Code, calling it ‘historic mission’

Deputy Law and Human Rights Minister Edward OS Hiariej said the House would expedite the deliberation of the Criminal Code draft and claimed that the bill’s passage was long overdue.

www.thejakartapost.com

 

[drmeson]

Modern-day Islamic Iran is more or less the re-incarnation of the Safavid Empire.

Safavid Empire (15th Century) was an amalgam of Turkoman tribes of Iran (Called Qizilbash) with Kurds and powerful Persian Vizirs/Strategists. The literal representation of modern-day Iranic ethnogenesis. This system ruled Iran for almost ~400 years (until the 19th century). They saw ups and downs but mostly were an invincible forces of their time because they kept coming back at the enemy. Because of this system Ottoman empire which was extremely successful in southeast Europe and enslaved the entire Arab world into their colonial subjects, failed to move an inch into the Iranic plateau. Wars happened with the mild exchange of territory (Mostly in Iraq, Armenia) but the border that was marked by Shah Esmael Saffavid's wars in the 15th century never changed and exists to this day.

This is Qizilbash map at the peak times of our great man Shahenshah Nader Shah.

Their gains
- Started extreme ethnonationalism of Irano-Turkic-Shiaism that exists even today.
- Very successfully defended Iranic Plateau from Ottoman and Russian expansion.

Their losses
- Lost Afghans because of internal turmoil at the end of Saffavid empire. Nader regained it but he died earlier and there was again an internal turmoil.
- Lost some part of Azerbaijan to Czar Russia despite local population fighting the Russians fiercely.

 

[Big Tank]

Many members have answered your question regarding Iran being found as a Muslim state.

The answer can't be simple because it existed since long and switched from a religion to another:

Iranian region after the Muslim conquest was a *Muslim state*.

After the Khilafat ended when Imam Hassan established ceasefire with Muawiyah.

All the Islamic regions turned into *Kingship* under Ummayad Dynasty.

Later being replaced by Abbasids. Yes, they all called themselves a Khalifa and called their government as an Islamic State but they were all kings within. Now it depends how you view them.

Fatimids replaced Abbasids and later the Ayubids and so on and then came Safavids, Qajars etc.. so it was under *kingship* with Islamic law.

Regarding Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, *Saudi* is a kingdom which got found after the dissolution of a pre existing Islamic government. Pakistan was found on a western democratic based Islamic government but Islam is least practiced in Pakistan as compared to Iran and Saudi Arabia in terms of dress code, religious practices, environmental situation etc.

Hope that answered your question.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

Iran was an Islamic nation long before Pakistan existed. Infact Iran was 90℅ sunni majority but then the safavids forcefully converted iran into a 90℅ shia majority within 300 years.
There is a lesson here for those who think Islam was forced in indian subcontinent. If safavids can convert a 90℅ sunni iran to a 90℅ shia iran by force in 300 years then imagine what would have been indian demographics after 1000 years of muslim rule had they forced converted hindus to Islam.
The very fact that hindus are still a vast majority in the subcontinent after a thousand year of muslim rule, shows that religion was never forced upon anyone.

This is true, but I don't think it would be possible in all countries. For example, Egypt was ruled by Ismaili Shia regime for nearly three centuries, yet most Egyptians remained Sunni. It happened because for lots of Iranians, religion was probably never their top priority. They must have been nominally religious.

 

[drmeson]

Persians were first attested in history merely 2800 years ago by the Semitic Assyrian Empire. An Iranian entity first emerged around that time too.

There are tons of MUCH older civilizations in the Arab world (Iran is a newcomer in this regard) let alone the IVC. Your claims are absolutely hilarious and historically false.

Your whole post is false based upon a lack of understanding of genetics. I saw you making the same mistake in another thread but that thread got locked or deleted so here I am posting this.

Persian identity or Medes Identity came to Iran from From Yamnaya some 2800 years ago and created empires but that does not mean there were no people in Iran at that time. A significant portion of Iranian genetics to this day come from Iranian Hunter-Gatherers (~20000 years old samples have been found) and their later descendants Neolithic Farmers (Iran_N). These are not just ancestors of Iranian but entire Central Asia, the Northern part of South Asia, and Anatolia as well. Let alone that, Iran_N is found among Some Europeans as well.

Iranian Neolithic farmers (Iran_N recognized in the genetics world) were a mixture of Iranian Hunter-Gatherers (Sample: Ganj Dareh) + Anatolian Farmers (ANF) from NW of Iran and Anatolia. Although they both came from the same prehistoric lineage. The proportions may vary based upon locations e.g. some samples show 70-80 % Anatolian lineage in NW of Iran (Sample: Haji Peroze), Azerbaijan, and Anatolia while those in Sistan and Balochistan were 70-80% Iran_N Heavy (Sample: Teppe Hisar). This same Iran_N later moved/invaded south Asia and mixed with Austrailoid content in India to create IVC.

This is not my opinion this is based upon the works of SJR registered, high impact factor, published research articles from the world’s leading universities top-notch bio geneticists, and anthropologists of the western world who recognize this Iranian Neolithic farmer Iran_N migrations and their resultant civilizations like Elam (Iran) and IVC (North India). Here we go.

1) REFERENCE 1 "The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia"
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0095714

Autosomal DNA of Indus valley was nothing but up to 87 % Iranian Neolithic farmers. Rest 13 % came from Austrailoid India (AASI) yes but mostly it was just Iranian farmers (Sample: Shahre Sokhteh in Balochistan) who started the pastoralist civilization in the Indus basin.

Direct quotations from the published paper

• “analyzing remains from the Indus Valley civilization (of parts of Bronze Age Northwest India and East Pakistan) and "outliers" from surrounding cultures, conclude that the IVC-population was a mixture people related to Iranian herders and ASI”

• “Distance from the Iran (of Indus valley), suggesting a systematic (but not necessarily uniform) spread at an average speed of about 0.65 km/yr”. (Iran_N Migration into south Asia to create IVC confirmed)

• “The only fitting two-way models were mixtures of a group related to herders from the western Zagros mountains of Iran and also to either Andamanese hunter-gatherers".

• “50–98% of the IVC-genome came from people related to early Iranian farmers, and from 2–50% of the IVC-genome came from native South Asian hunter-gatherers sharing a common ancestry with the Andamanese”

• “Those Iranian farmers-related people may have arrived in India before the advent of farming in northern India,[44] and mixed with people related to Indian hunter-gatherers c. 5400 to 3700 BCE, before the advent of the mature IVC”

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REFERENCE 2: "The Genetic Ancestry of Modern Indus Valley Populations from Northwest India"
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2018.10.022

Iran_N content in modern-day Indo-Pak groups could be as high as 50-60%

In the below plot, the light green part is Iran_N, look at the proportions of Iran_N in Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia (all the nations where Iran_N habitat spread) and look at the extremity in Pakistan and North Indian groups. it tells us that the baseline ancestor of these groups is same i.e. Iran_N.

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How old is Arab Identity?

Arab identity is not some gazillion years old as your trying to make here (why would a Pakistani do that?).

Arabs originated in Syro-Arabic deserts as a group called "ARIBI", earliest recorded 3000 years ago, when they were defeated by an Assyrian army.

"The first written attestation of the ethnonym Arab occurs in an Assyrian inscription of 853 BCE, where Shalmaneser III lists a King Gindibu of mâtu arbâi (Arab land) as among the people he defeated at the Battle of Qarqar"

What you are thinking of as "Arab" here is actually not Arab but Levant_N (Sample: Natufian) that predates Arab of any kind. Levant_N/Natufians has nothing to do with Arab identity as Arabs genetically are ~50 % different from Natufians. Not only the autosomal drift, the Natufian majority haplogroup was E1 while the majority Arabian classic Haplo is J1-M267 which tells us they are not the same group but instead a derivative population that went through invasion of the haplogroup.

1) REFERENCE:"Re-analysis of Whole Genome Sequence Data From 279 Ancient Eurasians Reveals Substantial Ancestral Heterogeneity"
DOI: https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffgene.2018.00268

Direct quotes from paper

• "The Natufian sample consisted of 51.2% Arabian, 21.2% Northern African, 20.9% Western Asian, and 6.8% Omotic ancestry"

Levant_N which contributed to 50 % Arabian genome was not related to Iran_N. "The first farmers of the southern Levant (Israel and Jordan) and Zagros Mountains (Iran) were strongly genetically differentiated" https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaf7943

• "In the ancient Iranians, the proportion of Western Asian ancestry doubled through the Iron Age, suggesting gene flow into Iran from the Caucasus rather than the Levant"

By the time Arabs as a group are first time mentioned in 835 BC. Same time, Aryan or Indo-European groups like Persians, and Medes started emerging in NW Iran. So Arab identity is almost equal to Iranian Indo-european identity. Later on Arab identity emerged in Peninsula with added negroid component from Sub Sahara. Btw the only genuine Arabs are peninsulas, rest Arabs are linguistic shifted ones like Levantines who do not genetically cluster with Saudis but cluster with Iranians and Turkish. Look at the Autosomal plots of Syrians or Lebanese above.

When Persian empires emerged, Arabs themselves were staunch allies or vassals of Iranian empires. Here is an Arab General from the Penninsula in the Achaemenid empire army of Iran at Naqshe Rostam. They were good in desert warfare and fought for Persian empires against Byzantines and Romans. It was like the entire Middle East combined was fighting the Europeans who came to grab the land.

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As far as Islam goes, Islam has had a strong presence in Iran for 1400 years by now. This is more than half of the recorded history of Persians and Iran as a concept.​

In fact Islam has a greater historical foothold in Iran than in contemporary Pakistan. The idea of Islam being alien to Iran is absolutely hilarious.

That I agree with. Iranian identity goes hand in hand with Islamic identity. It may not be the first or foremost identity but it is an important one. We have been Mullahs for a long long time. Iranians were the major nonarab power behind Abbasids in military, strategy, planning etc. Arabs are middle easterners like us, and even today the staunch family of allies are iran, iraq, syria, lebanon, yemen (mixture of Irano-Turkics, Levant and Penninsulan Arabs). A mixture of middle easterners/west asians/central asians.

Btw you are making the same mistake again. Persians are 54 % of Iran. They are the builders of Iranian empires but they are not the only ones. It's unfair to us non-Persian Iranians to be called Persians because we have our own languages. Its like I start calling Pakistanis as all NW Indic Punjabis because thats the major group there. Iran of the modern era is an Irano-turkic nation pretty similar to Turkey, Afghanistan, and Azerbaijan. We are all a big family by genetics, linguistics, and culture.