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By Ahmad Faruqui

Monday, 05 Jan, 2009


THE war of words between India and Pakistan continues to escalate. During the past two weeks, the advantage has shifted to New Delhi.

Pranab Mukherjee, India’s foreign minister, said that his government was keeping all options open. Vikram Sood, the former top spy, provided the translation. Sood called for tough action to prevent the Pakistani army from ‘Balkanising’ India. In his view, the army’s quest dates back to 1971, when India dismembered Pakistan.

Arundhati Ghose, India’s former UN representative, opined undiplomatically, ‘If there is another attack, we should go in and bomb the daylights out of them.’ Pradeep Kaushiva, a retired vice admiral, said that every Indian in uniform feels ‘that the country has been attacked and someone must pay for it.’

BJP parliamentarian Arun Shourie called for covert actions to be carried out in Balochistan, Gilgit and Baltistan. He declared, ‘Not an eye for an eye; but for an eye, both eyes.’ This mantra is a far cry from Mahatma Gandhi’s who was even opposed to the Biblical injunction.

Should India attack? It can destroy a few camps and claim that it has ‘demolished’ the infrastructure of terror. But that claim would simply invite derision. The Israeli experience shows the futility of using military force against those seek martyrdom.

Furthermore, an IAF bombing run would sow the seeds of hatred among secular Pakistanis. The GHQ’s theory that India is an existential threat would take hold and they would enlist in large numbers to fight the invaders tooth and nail. The military’s position in Pakistan’s strategic culture will be strengthened irrevocably. In the end, India would lose both strategically and tactically.

A century earlier, Norman Angell wrote a tract, The Great Illusion. Angell, who later became a member of parliament, a Knight of the Realm and a Nobel laureate, argued that in an age of economic interdependence, war destroyed both the victor and the loser. His advice fell on deaf years. In less than five years, the European powers were engaged in The Great War, sparked by the assassination of the Austrian crown prince in Sarajevo.

The danger of war in the subcontinent hangs in the air as the hotheads in South Block consider putting their Cold Start doctrine to the test. While the operational details are a closely guarded secret, it is possible to lay out four scenarios of how the attack may unfold.

First, the IAF carries out a ‘surgical’ strike on alleged camps located along the Line of Control (LoC). Second, the air strike is followed up with a helicopter-borne assault by Indian commandos. Third, an IAF strike takes place at several key locations in Pakistan. Fourth, a ground assault by the Indian rapid deployment force is mounted along the entire border to seize territory.

Should Pakistan respond? In a Newtonian world, every action elicits an equal and opposite reaction. In the South Asian world, laced as it is with the detritus of history and wrapped as it is in the magic of myth, every action elicits an opposite but greater reaction. Pakistan’s army chief, Gen Ashfaq Kayani, a patient and quiet man, has said that Pakistan would react ‘within minutes’ of any Indian strike. He has the full support of the National Assembly with him. It has stated unanimously that the nation and its armed forces ‘shall together defend Pakistan’s security at all costs’.

What exactly would Pakistan target? Since there are no camps to take out in India, presumably the PAF would mount sorties against the IAF bases from which the intruders were launched.

This would up the ante and invite retaliatory Indian attacks against PAF bases. Pakistani formations, especially in Azad Kashmir, may be annihilated. The port at Karachi may be blockaded and clogged with sunken naval ships. At some point, economic facilities, such as power plants, dams and factories may be hit. Load-shedding would become even more unbearable.

If the Pakistani military begins to crumble under the weight of an Indian counter-response, and significant territory is lost, the generals in Rawalpindi may think of going ballistic. As they ponder whether the red line has been crossed, a brigadier in some isolated outpost may take the decision to weaponise the missiles in his battery.

What will happen next? In a recent column, Shuja Nawaz, author of Crossed Swords, cites a 2002 study by the Natural Defence Resources Council which found that a limited nuclear exchange would kill 2.8 million people and a more intense exchange would kill 22.1 million people. Ten times that many would be injured and possibly crippled for life. Eventually, the fallout from an Indo-Pakistani nuclear war would hit the population of neighbouring countries.

Is there a way to stop this rush to madness? The US, in concert with the EU, should apply strong diplomatic pressure on both countries to resolve the matter through negotiations. If India has solid evidence of Pakistani complicity in the Mumbai attacks, it should present this information immediately to Pakistan. If that does not result in a satisfactory response from Pakistan, India should move the UN Security Council to apply sanctions on Pakistan.

At the same time, Pakistan should go the extra mile and shut down all militant organisations and dismantle — once and for all — those toxic campgrounds where tolerance is snuffed out from the human DNA and replaced with hatred.

As Brookings’s Stephen Cohen noted recently, the ship of state in Pakistan, like the S.S. Titanic, is heading towards a giant iceberg. Unless it changes course, and soon, its fate is sealed.

Can this war of words be put to an end? One is reminded of how Gen Zia used cricket diplomacy to defuse a military standoff with India back in the 1980s. In that spirit, President Asif Zardari should find an excuse to fly over to New Delhi and confer with Prime Minister Singh and his cabinet. He should take generals Kayani and Pasha with him to convince the Indians he means business when it comes to fighting terror.

As the new year begins, the leaders of both countries have a chance to honour the conventions of international law. They should seize it. Let that be their new year’s gift to those who elected them.

The writer is an associate of the Pakistan Security Research Unit at the University of Bradford.
 
Post 9/11, overnight, the shinning trophy of ISI-Pak Army’s brilliant success of Afghanistan was lost. No nation, without strategic depth, can ever dream of becoming a military power, leave alone super power. Pakistan has limited “Strategic Depth”. If the question of existence arises, vis-à-vis Pakistan, Indian forces can disseminate Pakistan in matter of days, should it come to an all out war. Nuke or no Nuke.

Dissemination of Pakistan can happen only in Indian Media and bollywood movies, ( India utthaya ga DUS Qaddam, Pakistan ho jay ga Khatam AAJ TAK channel. 7 dinno ki baat hai 7 dinno ki us kay bad Pakistan duniya kay naqshay per nahin ho ga Indian Movie hindustan ki qasam and many more stuff like that). The point is we are here and we will remain here forever and if we are going somewhere (down to hell) we will make sure we take YOU ALONG WITH US..

If we were so weak as you have mentioned above and if it was a job to be done in matter of days India would not have hesitated to go for this option. As one week or few days wont effect Indian Economy or any other indian Interest isn't it.

What makes you think that Pakistan Army relies on Taliban and These terrorists, They were useful only in 80's now things have changed Pakistan Army stopped relying on these elements since the Soviet Downfall.
 
India will still exist as a nation, with severe destruction, but Pakistan will cease to exist. This is not India specific

Let me tell you one thing my dear friend. India is not a GOD OF WAR and Pakistan is not an Ant that you can just crush Us and walk away and one thing more if you say Pakistan will be wiped out from global map or stuff like that then remember one thing " All the Pakistanis may die as you said and that will put an end to our miseries but Life in India will be like a LIVING HELL and people in India will become an Example of lowest form of life on earth, A life worse than Death "

So don't even think of war it will Bring Destruction to both the nations and Get over your own perception that Pakistan is just a few days job.
 
Hafeez and Gang, may or may not be able to appreciate – “ Strategic Depth”. The Pak Army and it’s other instruments does.

You meant ISI right, OK see These terrorists (hafeez gang) are not our "Strategic Depth" our "Strategic Depth" lies in our Nuclear Arsenal and you know about that very well.

India is still trying to make Pakistan look like a terrorist state and India has failed so many times in proving this point and still India is trying her level best.

Pakistan is peace loving nation and Civilian Govt is in charge in Pakistan not the Army anymore but still Army has a very strong role to play (just like Turkish army). ISI is under control of Pakistan army.
 
Pakistan was hoodwinking the US and NATO forces. It was running with the foxes and hunting with the hounds. Obama is smarter. Obama’s declared policy talks about going after Pakistan. Bush would look like an angel, if Obama pursues his stated Pak-Policy. The Pakistani Establishment has till February 09, to kick out NATO forces from Afghanistan to secure it’s “Strategic Depth” – Afghanistan. But, of course, they can not show their allies the door, just like that, with the world community watching.

Another Media BS you don't know the realities on ground, do you know how much Pakistan has paid in this war on terror (Pakistan has lost more soldiers than any other country in NATO or ISAF combined and as many civilians)

Obama's comments were just during Elections and i will love to see his mettle and you said Bush is an angel:angel: then why the hell shoes were thrown :woot: at him in Iraq :rofl:

Pakistan has to kick out Taliban and al qaeda not NATO my fiend.
 
By Ahmad Faruqui

Monday, 05 Jan, 2009


THE war of words between India and Pakistan continues to escalate. During the past two weeks, the advantage has shifted to New Delhi.

Pranab Mukherjee, India’s foreign minister, said that his government was keeping all options open. Vikram Sood, the former top spy, provided the translation. Sood called for tough action to prevent the Pakistani army from ‘Balkanising’ India. In his view, the army’s quest dates back to 1971, when India dismembered Pakistan.

Arundhati Ghose, India’s former UN representative, opined undiplomatically, ‘If there is another attack, we should go in and bomb the daylights out of them.’ Pradeep Kaushiva, a retired vice admiral, said that every Indian in uniform feels ‘that the country has been attacked and someone must pay for it.’

BJP parliamentarian Arun Shourie called for covert actions to be carried out in Balochistan, Gilgit and Baltistan. He declared, ‘Not an eye for an eye; but for an eye, both eyes.’ This mantra is a far cry from Mahatma Gandhi’s who was even opposed to the Biblical injunction.

Should India attack? It can destroy a few camps and claim that it has ‘demolished’ the infrastructure of terror. But that claim would simply invite derision. The Israeli experience shows the futility of using military force against those seek martyrdom.

Furthermore, an IAF bombing run would sow the seeds of hatred among secular Pakistanis. The GHQ’s theory that India is an existential threat would take hold and they would enlist in large numbers to fight the invaders tooth and nail. The military’s position in Pakistan’s strategic culture will be strengthened irrevocably. In the end, India would lose both strategically and tactically.

A century earlier, Norman Angell wrote a tract, The Great Illusion. Angell, who later became a member of parliament, a Knight of the Realm and a Nobel laureate, argued that in an age of economic interdependence, war destroyed both the victor and the loser. His advice fell on deaf years. In less than five years, the European powers were engaged in The Great War, sparked by the assassination of the Austrian crown prince in Sarajevo.

The danger of war in the subcontinent hangs in the air as the hotheads in South Block consider putting their Cold Start doctrine to the test. While the operational details are a closely guarded secret, it is possible to lay out four scenarios of how the attack may unfold.

First, the IAF carries out a ‘surgical’ strike on alleged camps located along the Line of Control (LoC). Second, the air strike is followed up with a helicopter-borne assault by Indian commandos. Third, an IAF strike takes place at several key locations in Pakistan. Fourth, a ground assault by the Indian rapid deployment force is mounted along the entire border to seize territory.

Should Pakistan respond? In a Newtonian world, every action elicits an equal and opposite reaction. In the South Asian world, laced as it is with the detritus of history and wrapped as it is in the magic of myth, every action elicits an opposite but greater reaction. Pakistan’s army chief, Gen Ashfaq Kayani, a patient and quiet man, has said that Pakistan would react ‘within minutes’ of any Indian strike. He has the full support of the National Assembly with him. It has stated unanimously that the nation and its armed forces ‘shall together defend Pakistan’s security at all costs’.

What exactly would Pakistan target? Since there are no camps to take out in India, presumably the PAF would mount sorties against the IAF bases from which the intruders were launched.

This would up the ante and invite retaliatory Indian attacks against PAF bases. Pakistani formations, especially in Azad Kashmir, may be annihilated. The port at Karachi may be blockaded and clogged with sunken naval ships. At some point, economic facilities, such as power plants, dams and factories may be hit. Load-shedding would become even more unbearable.

If the Pakistani military begins to crumble under the weight of an Indian counter-response, and significant territory is lost, the generals in Rawalpindi may think of going ballistic. As they ponder whether the red line has been crossed, a brigadier in some isolated outpost may take the decision to weaponise the missiles in his battery.

What will happen next? In a recent column, Shuja Nawaz, author of Crossed Swords, cites a 2002 study by the Natural Defence Resources Council which found that a limited nuclear exchange would kill 2.8 million people and a more intense exchange would kill 22.1 million people. Ten times that many would be injured and possibly crippled for life. Eventually, the fallout from an Indo-Pakistani nuclear war would hit the population of neighbouring countries.

Is there a way to stop this rush to madness? The US, in concert with the EU, should apply strong diplomatic pressure on both countries to resolve the matter through negotiations. If India has solid evidence of Pakistani complicity in the Mumbai attacks, it should present this information immediately to Pakistan. If that does not result in a satisfactory response from Pakistan, India should move the UN Security Council to apply sanctions on Pakistan.

At the same time, Pakistan should go the extra mile and shut down all militant organisations and dismantle — once and for all — those toxic campgrounds where tolerance is snuffed out from the human DNA and replaced with hatred.

As Brookings’s Stephen Cohen noted recently, the ship of state in Pakistan, like the S.S. Titanic, is heading towards a giant iceberg. Unless it changes course, and soon, its fate is sealed.

Can this war of words be put to an end? One is reminded of how Gen Zia used cricket diplomacy to defuse a military standoff with India back in the 1980s. In that spirit, President Asif Zardari should find an excuse to fly over to New Delhi and confer with Prime Minister Singh and his cabinet. He should take generals Kayani and Pasha with him to convince the Indians he means business when it comes to fighting terror.

As the new year begins, the leaders of both countries have a chance to honour the conventions of international law. They should seize it. Let that be their new year’s gift to those who elected them.

The writer is an associate of the Pakistan Security Research Unit at the University of Bradford.

One thing i never understood about such articles is what message are they trying to give to Pakistan and its nation that Pakistan can be taken out in minutes, there are no terror camps in India (RSS, BJP which category they fall into), generals in rwp are fools, yeah right that can seen with the comparision of the IAF head making a statement while his gf calls him on the cell:disagree:

Last but certainly not the least Zardari should fly to new delhi with Kyani and pasha, what was this guy smoking when coming out with a statement such as this. If peace is so desirable then why isnt the same suggestion given to Singh, why dont he fly to pakistan and give a clear message to a small neigbour that indeed India does not want war and we are working for peace and terrorism is an issue both countries need to address not just in India but in Pakistan as well.
Till then my suggestion to the writer is come off from the moral high horse of his.
 
I caught on to the point about Kiyani and Pasha as well. While its perfectly fine to have our President and PM go over to India to conduct diplomacy, it makes absolutely zero sense to even think about sending our Army and Intelligence chiefs over to India for "ji hazoori". It has never been done and will not be done until there is trust, effective CBMs in place between Pakistan and India which foster mutual visits by both sides at the levels of military chiefs.
 
Dear Metalfalcon, Sure, I appreciate your nationalism and patriotism. Everyone amongst us love our nation and country. You have your point of view which I may not agree, fair enough. I am sure there are other angles to this situation, which I may not be aware of and vice versa. Nevertheless, I wanted to reply to some of your comments.

Strategic Depth – Post 9/11, overnight, the shinning trophy of ISI-Pak Army’s brilliant success of Afghanistan was lost. No nation, without strategic depth, can ever dream of becoming a military power, leave alone super power.

I mentioned Afghanistan as the strategic depth and not the terrorists.

War advocating – I was not advocating a war. I mentioned “If the question of existence arises, vis-à-vis Pakistan, Indian forces can disseminate Pakistan in matter of days, should it come to an all out war. Nuke or no Nuke.
India will still exist as a nation, with severe destruction, but Pakistan will cease to exist. This is not India specific. If tomorrow, it has a war with Iran, it will be the same story. Let us not even bring in NATO to this equation.

These sentences makes the emphasis of the need of strategic depth. Nuclear Weapons are not considered Strategic Depth. 

Your point - Weakness of Pakistan : I never mentioned anything about the weakness or strength of Pakistan Vis-a-vis India. The statistics are available in this website itself. However, in case of nuclear exchange, between India and Pakistan my above observations will come true. This is neither advocated in my post nor is it desirable. As you have correctly mentioned - “So don't even think of war it will Bring Destruction to both the nations”

My para - Pakistan was hoodwinking the US and NATO forces. It was running with the foxes and hunting with the hounds. Obama is smarter. Obama’s declared policy talks about going after Pakistan. Bush would look like an angel, if Obama pursues his stated Pak-Policy. The Pakistani Establishment has till February 09, to kick out NATO forces from Afghanistan to secure it’s “Strategic Depth” – Afghanistan

Your Take : Another Media BS you don't know the realities on ground, do you know how much Pakistan has paid in this war on terror (Pakistan has lost more soldiers than any other country in NATO or ISAF combined and as many civilians)

Obama's comments were just during Elections and i will love to see his mettle and you said Bush is an angel then why the hell shoes were thrown at him in Iraq

Pakistan has to kick out Taliban and al qaeda not NATO my fiend.

Pakistan was hoodwinking the US and NATO forces. It was running with the foxes and hunting with the hounds. : Can be perceptions, but the dominant perception, worldwide. Arguable. Otherwise, Pakistan is doing a thankless job.

Obama is smarter.: Again a dominant perception worldwide, based on his elections speeches and debates. Arguable.

Bush would look like an angel, if Obama pursues his stated Pak-Policy : This sentence does not in anyway imply that I have called Bush an Angel

“Pakistan has to kick out Taliban and al qaeda not NATO my fiend”. Totally agree with you my friend.

Let me assure you my friend majority of Indian population has no ill will for Pakistani nation or people. In fact, a stable prosperous Pakistan is a strategic need for India’s tryst with destiny. 

In recent history, the few times, there was ill-will against Pakistan are

Kargil : Brilliant Pakistani Military strategy but wrong timing. Here we had our Prime Minister trying to mend fences and we were paid back by Kargil

2001 Parliament attack : You may disagree, but the militants were from Pakistan

2008 Mumbai Attack : You may disagree, but the militants were from Pakistan

One last observation : Your enemy lies within. India has no territorial aspiration vis-à-vis Pakistan. ( We already have our share of trouble within our country and who in his right senses would want the Taliban with in it’s own borders???  ) India is not your enemy.
 
One last observation : Your enemy lies within. India has no territorial aspiration vis-à-vis Pakistan. ( We already have our share of trouble within our country and who in his right senses would want the Taliban with in it’s own borders???  ) India is not your enemy.

it gets really hard to believe that when we go back to 1971. also u have got around 18 consulates along pak afghan border. more than 6000 of ur troops are in afghanistan. evidence of ur involvement in FATA and Balochistan have been shown to US many times. if we got back to when we were about to conduct our nuclear tests, it was ur country which planned to strike pak nuclear assets along with israel. so this 'enemy lies within and india is no threat' is nothing except another of dumb statements floated by US.
 
Dear Metalfalcon, Sure, I appreciate your nationalism and patriotism. Everyone amongst us love our nation and country. You have your point of view which I may not agree, fair enough. I am sure there are other angles to this situation, which I may not be aware of and vice versa. Nevertheless, I wanted to reply to some of your comments.

Strategic Depth – Post 9/11, overnight, the shinning trophy of ISI-Pak Army’s brilliant success of Afghanistan was lost. No nation, without strategic depth, can ever dream of becoming a military power, leave alone super power.

I mentioned Afghanistan as the strategic depth and not the terrorists.

War advocating – I was not advocating a war. I mentioned “If the question of existence arises, vis-à-vis Pakistan, Indian forces can disseminate Pakistan in matter of days, should it come to an all out war. Nuke or no Nuke.
India will still exist as a nation, with severe destruction, but Pakistan will cease to exist. This is not India specific. If tomorrow, it has a war with Iran, it will be the same story. Let us not even bring in NATO to this equation.

These sentences makes the emphasis of the need of strategic depth. Nuclear Weapons are not considered Strategic Depth. 

Your point - Weakness of Pakistan : I never mentioned anything about the weakness or strength of Pakistan Vis-a-vis India. The statistics are available in this website itself. However, in case of nuclear exchange, between India and Pakistan my above observations will come true. This is neither advocated in my post nor is it desirable. As you have correctly mentioned - “So don't even think of war it will Bring Destruction to both the nations”

My para - Pakistan was hoodwinking the US and NATO forces. It was running with the foxes and hunting with the hounds. Obama is smarter. Obama’s declared policy talks about going after Pakistan. Bush would look like an angel, if Obama pursues his stated Pak-Policy. The Pakistani Establishment has till February 09, to kick out NATO forces from Afghanistan to secure it’s “Strategic Depth” – Afghanistan

Your Take : Another Media BS you don't know the realities on ground, do you know how much Pakistan has paid in this war on terror (Pakistan has lost more soldiers than any other country in NATO or ISAF combined and as many civilians)

Obama's comments were just during Elections and i will love to see his mettle and you said Bush is an angel then why the hell shoes were thrown at him in Iraq

Pakistan has to kick out Taliban and al qaeda not NATO my fiend.

Pakistan was hoodwinking the US and NATO forces. It was running with the foxes and hunting with the hounds. : Can be perceptions, but the dominant perception, worldwide. Arguable. Otherwise, Pakistan is doing a thankless job.

Obama is smarter.: Again a dominant perception worldwide, based on his elections speeches and debates. Arguable.

Bush would look like an angel, if Obama pursues his stated Pak-Policy : This sentence does not in anyway imply that I have called Bush an Angel

“Pakistan has to kick out Taliban and al qaeda not NATO my fiend”. Totally agree with you my friend.

Let me assure you my friend majority of Indian population has no ill will for Pakistani nation or people. In fact, a stable prosperous Pakistan is a strategic need for India’s tryst with destiny. 

In recent history, the few times, there was ill-will against Pakistan are

Kargil : Brilliant Pakistani Military strategy but wrong timing. Here we had our Prime Minister trying to mend fences and we were paid back by Kargil

2001 Parliament attack : You may disagree, but the militants were from Pakistan

2008 Mumbai Attack : You may disagree, but the militants were from Pakistan

One last observation : Your enemy lies within. India has no territorial aspiration vis-à-vis Pakistan. ( We already have our share of trouble within our country and who in his right senses would want the Taliban with in it’s own borders???  ) India is not your enemy.

I must appreciate your reply was in a very decent manner unlike other Indians who take it personally and start abusing and derailing the topic, thanks anyway.:toast_sign:

Yes you are right Afghanistan was useful to Pakistan when Taliban were in control and Pakistan had very brotherly relations with Afghanistan but you should not forget that India at the same time was playing with Northern Alliance and after 9/11 when northern alliance came to power the people who hated Pakistan the most came to power in Afghanistan and off course this has troubled Pakistan a lot, as you have blamed (accused or whatever) Pakistan of being behind Parliament attack and Mumbai attack, Let me tell you one thing mann India is also behind many attacks on Pakistani soil and please tell me what kind of job more than 10 Indian Consulates are doing in Afghanistan and one IAF air base in Tajikistan but the point is this fair ? the answer is simple no not at all the way both countries are using other means to harm each other is not a good idea and as the both countries know that they cannot afford a full fledged war still they are trying to figure out how to keep harming each other through unconventional means and for that Afghanistan is the best way.

Enmity between India and Pakistan is the main cause of suffering for the people of whole south Asia and you can see how Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Srilanka are also being involved in this conflict through Indirect approach.

Shall we continue on this path which will lead us to destruction or shall we sit down and discuss this issue peacefully, Both India and Pakistan should stop playing proxy warfare and end this bloodshed otherwise the agencies who are playing a great role nowadays will soon produce someone like "HITLER" and that will be the end of the story, Is this what people of the whole region will like to have.

our own conflicts has lead USA to dictate her terms on us and they are gaining from our losses and i think Obama will be same as Bush there will be no change or i would like to say is matter will be even worse than now.

the best way out is trust each other and solve the problems through dialogue. India wont get anything by blackmailing Pakistan or by putting International pressure on Pakistan if India wants some co-operation from Pakistan they should directly ask Pakistan for it.

In the end again i would like to say is Please get over your own perception that Pakistan is a small and weak country and we can dictate our terms to Pakistan and India should realize that Pakistan should not be underestimated and Indian Media and Bollywood must stop BS against Pakistan as i have mentioned above.

Please continue in the same manner and if you have some comments please let me know i will be happy to answer them.
 
Dear Metalfalcon, thank for your reply and appreciations. Indeed some of your observations have merit while some, I can not agree with. Let me elaborate…

You are justified being concerned of Indian Media specially the vernacular ones, who over the last months have been squeezing the current issue for higher viewer ship and TRP. Ratings. In fact, the some Indian TV channels has to face public ire for responsible reporting and ‘editorising’ their coverage. But these channels are fringe channels, who also has programming on ghosts etc., and are treated as entertainment channels. But, hey, this is a free country with free media. Some of the negatives of democracies I would like to believe. This is true for the Pak fringe Media too.

But, the mainstream ones has been very responsible and had Pakistani guests live on Air to air Pakistani views too.

You may not agree, but the fact remains that India is amongst the top ten economies of the world. India is a large country with 1.2 billion Citizens. 80% are Hindus and other religious minority and 20% Muslim. A chaotic functioning democracy, which is secular and guarantees equal rights for all citizen , irrespective of the cast, creed or religion. But of course, we have our share of fights between communities and the same is deplorable. Nevertheless, please remember that our present prime minister, belong to a so called minority community – a Sikh. In addition, our current VP is a Muslim and we had two Muslims as our President. One of the richest Indian - Mr. Premji is a Muslim. The Tatas ( who owns the Taj Hotel ) are Parsis…..

Indeed India, like any other country of it size and capabilities would like to have its’ say in world stage. However, throughout it post British existence, you will appreciate India had had a mostly neutral stance and was a Co-founder of NAM.

Also do remember, New Delhi has a Palestinian Embassy much much before, it had an Israeli Embassy. Yesser Arafat, was given state guest status.

In WTO negotiation, my friend, China, Pakistan and India work together along with Brazil and other developing countries. So we do cooperate.

From my point of view, the Pakistani nation has been used by everyone to meet their needs and discarded. The USA used you to fight the Soviets. Now you have the Taliban problem. The Chinese have been using you to keep India busy in it’s western front, while they make impressive economic progress. And since the last 8 years, the USA again are using you and sure you will be discarded once your need is over. But that apart, your Military also is much responsible for today’s state of Affairs.

India’s competition is with China. We have a lot of catching on to do though. Sure we are concerned about China’s Navy building listening post in Coco Islands in Myanmar and the port in Gwadar in Pakistan, in the process, encircling the Indian subcontinent. Does this act of overtly creating a military rival next door forces India to take countermeasures? Should we not have better relations with Afghanistan? It is for you to answer. Sure we would like to have better relationship with your other neighbors as counter weights. That is prudence.

And hence, my earlier post – Strategic depth is responsible for Mumbai attck.

Also as a large economy, we can support other smaller countries by offering free access to our market and support these smaller economies to grow and carry them along in our rush to modernization.

I fully agree that India and Pakistan needs to solve issues with talks. We have been trying to do so. Late Rajiv Gandhi went and met your then PM Benazir Bhutto. Vajpayee took the bus to Lahore and Kargil happened. Things were just being picking up and Mumbai attacks were carried out.

You may not agree with me here, but, I thought I would like to put across my thought here for your contemplation and your views. And this is a view of a common Indian, who is a bit literate:)

Who looses if there is peace between both our countries?

I look forward to your views.
 
Dear "Thebignag" you have a right to have difference of Opinion with me and i respect your views and thoughts let me begin with this one

Who looses if there is peace between both our countries?

People of both the countries will benefit if there is peace but politicians will loose their Vote banks, Agencies will loose their Funding and luxuries, Extremists will loose their Demand and so on, In order that these vultures are kept on feeding, incident like Marriott Hotel and Mumbai will keep on happening.

You are justified being concerned of Indian Media specially the vernacular ones, who over the last months have been squeezing the current issue for higher viewer ship and TRP. Ratings. In fact, the some Indian TV channels has to face public ire for responsible reporting and ‘editorising’ their coverage. But these channels are fringe channels, who also has programming on ghosts etc., and are treated as entertainment channels. But, hey, this is a free country with free media. Some of the negatives of democracies I would like to believe. This is true for the Pak fringe Media too.

I think people in Media are supposed to be literate and well educated and if they don't know what will be the consequences of the War Hysteria they (media of both countries but Indian Media especially) are producing and If India and Pakistan could have gone to war and more than Billion people have died who would have to be responsible ? Think Again.

Pakistan media never said anything Like India will be wiped out and in 7 days India wont be on Global map although many People in Pakistan said some harsh things against India on Pakistani channels but Pakistani media itself never said anything aggressive or BS as "Hindustan Uttahay ga dus qadam, Pakistan ho jaye ga Khatam", and stuff like that was repeated like advertisements, AAJ TAK went a step ahead and they started a campaign to put pressure on GoI to go to war with Pakistan and the people on AAJ TAK were talking about nuking Pakistan and Bombing Pakistan back to stone age:blah::blah: This kind of things will just put fuel on already burning hatred among two countries.

You are right about many things you said about Indian Development you are 100 % right about them and i wont even challenge them, Indian TARANGA has landed on moon and you had two Muslim presidents, one Muslim speaker, the guy who made nukes for you was a Muslim and many More Muslims on your bright Top Indians list, But you should also not forget how common Muslims are treated in India like in Gujarat, Kashmir and UP and how Muslims are targeted in Bollywood Movies because all the Villians i see nowadays in Bollywood are Muslims before they used to be likes of "GABBAR, Kabeera, Gujjar, " etc but now every Villan name ends with a Bhai like Sulaiman Bhai, Jabar Bhai etc well i don't want to talk about this issue because it will derail the topic and this issue has been discussed here "Millions of Times".

Regarding Issue of China, I would like to tell you that Pakistan and India were enemies even before the creation of China and Pak-China relations and your comment about China that they are using Pakistan as a diversion for India.... well i will disagree with you on this point :tsk: China doesn't need help on anybody in order to deal with her challenges on the contrary Pakistan needs China to counter India. China on the other hand is trying to Brooke peace between India and Pakistan. It will be wrong if a say Russia used India to counter China isn't it.
 
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And hence, my earlier post – Strategic depth is responsible for Mumbai attck.

Also as a large economy, we can support other smaller countries by offering free access to our market and support these smaller economies to grow and carry them along in our rush to modernization.

I fully agree that India and Pakistan needs to solve issues with talks. We have been trying to do so. Late Rajiv Gandhi went and met your then PM Benazir Bhutto. Vajpayee took the bus to Lahore and Kargil happened. Things were just being picking up and Mumbai attacks were carried out.

You may not agree with me here, but, I thought I would like to put across my thought here for your contemplation and your views. And this is a view of a common Indian, who is a bit literate

Who looses if there is peace between both our countries?

I look forward to your views.

Mumbai attack is still a mystery when Pakistan will analyze all the evidence that has been provided to Pakistan i am Damn sure if anybody is found guilty he will be prosecuted in Pakistan. As far as Strategic Depth is concerned i don't think any reason that Mumbai Incident was because of Pakistan's will to have control in Afghanistan but you can say that Attack on Indian Embassy in Kabul could have been a part of that.

Let me tell you one more thing friend when Indian PMs come to Pakistan the Indian Army Chief makes his concerns clear to his PM. Let me elaborate.

When Indian PM Vajpayee visited Pakistan and came to Lahore by Bus and the main agenda of the talks was Kashmir BUT before that Indian Army chief told him that " There should be absolutely no territorial changes on the Indian side and you should make sure of it " That General admitted this thing even on NDTV and when your PM came here he wasted all the time on how to have trade with each other and hesitated to talk about kashmir and may be that was the reason behind Kargil as Pakistani Military Leadership was Disappionted by the Indian Diplomatic efforts on solving the Kashmir issue.

Again mistrust is there on both the sides we should try to figure out how to overcome this gulf between us and this can be done only by having people to people contact like we are having right now.
 
Metalfalcon, why bother debating with yet another brainwashed Hindu who thinks India will sweep Pakistan in a matter of days.
It's not even worth it, we've tried countless of times trying to convince their kind that there is absolutely no winner in any war between both countries, they keep thinking that their country is an absolute superpower against Pakistan, hence why the size of their *dingdong* has increased dramatically.
It's funny to see India has not tried anything militarily so far, apparently, their officials and politicians are a tad smarter then the regular citizens, who are only obsessed with overpowering Pakistan.
It doesn't matter whether you have the numbers or the huge economy, as long as Pakistan keeps catching up technologically and militarilly in combination with a growing economy, we'll still be that "little pesky" country that will not give in to India demands.
We've done so for 60+years, and we'll continue to dismiss any form or sign of Indian power boasting.
Leave your egos for another nation, not for Pakistan.

Thanks.
 
Metalfalcon, why bother debating with yet another brainwashed Hindu who thinks India will sweep Pakistan in a matter of days.
It's not even worth it, we've tried countless of times trying to convince their kind that there is absolutely no winner in any war between both countries, they keep thinking that their country is an absolute superpower against Pakistan, hence why the size of their *dingdong* has increased dramatically.
It's funny to see India has not tried anything militarily so far, apparently, their officials and politicians are a tad smarter then the regular citizens, who are only obsessed with overpowering Pakistan.
It doesn't matter whether you have the numbers or the huge economy, as long as Pakistan keeps catching up technologically and militarilly in combination with a growing economy, we'll still be that "little pesky" country that will not give in to India demands.
We've done so for 60+years, and we'll continue to dismiss any form or sign of Indian power boasting.
Leave your egos for another nation, not for Pakistan.

Thanks.

You are right mann, But i will try my level best to let them know that we are not those kind of people who are shown on India media and i will try to convince them we are Humans and we want to live in peace and harmony but our desire for peace must not be taken as our weakness and we will never compromise our respect and dignity for Peace sake.

No country can just become a superpower by just buying 100 of Billions worth of military equipment. India has developed herself in the field of science, technology, economy and defence but they should not try to force there will on us and thats why we have BORDERS FOR, so that they can live happily at their home and we are happy at our home.

Pakistan is here to stay and we will survive Inshallah.
 
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