VIEW: Success lies in secularism —Dr Irfan Zafar

[EjazR]

The definition of Secularism is the separation of a government, organisation or institution from religion and/or religious beliefs.Since Islam has given us the solution of complete way of life so why looking for other options.If you are looking for solutions of your own than isn't it suggests that you are finding the solutions of Islam weak.As a muslim if you are doing that then by definition you cannot be a muslim.The people usually questions about self interpretation in Isalm and that's the best question they have to support their logic.By using this reason these idiots they challenge the entire system.I want to tell them that the weakness is in them of not understanding.

You are unfortunate ignoring what is being written in the earlier posts.
Can you tell me one verse in the Quran that asks for establishing an "Islamic state" where Islam is implemented in a top down approach? Os which demands that a "cleric" becomes a head of state?

Is it not true that one of the biggest problem facing Muslim countries particularly Pakistan today is the use of Islam for political purposes?

This perverted and deviant ideology of Islam being used as a political tool instead of a way of life and inculcating Islamic values in personal lives is a recent phenomenon and one of the reasons why there was no such thing before.

Right from the early days of the Ummayad dynasty, the job of the clerics was completely separate from that of the Rulers. Theocracy where clerics are the head of the state - which is the end goal for most of the misguided "political Islamic ideology" lot - is a recent phenomenon where the first such state was established in 1979 in Iran or the shortlived Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

This idea has come out of a defeatist mentality and has no basis in the Quran or Islam. This idea came about as a reaction to imperialism and not something that was there for the previous 1400 years.

There are a large number of traditional Islamic scholars that have written extensively against the ideas of Syed Qutb and Maududi that forms the basis of this thought. And it is only a matter of time - now that the funding and backing that such groups received in the last 3-4 decades by Western and Arab regimes including Pakistan to fight communism is over - that they will be relegated to insignificance. Infact, the failure of political Islam as articulated by Maududi and Syed Qutb is already evident. JI can't win more than single digit vote share. And the recent Arab spring in Egypt has shown that even groups like Muslim brotherhood have had to modify a lot of their core demands to satisfy the majority who are against the deviant ideology of political Islam.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Well, you see, the thing is that there are people (not to generalize) who seem to either think that; or have been told that the word "secularism" is analagous to "atheism" which isn't true actually. Whatever people want to call the core ideals that I feel should be enacted in our society -whether "secularism" or just plain "tolerant" society - I believe it will be to our advantage. We ought to ensure that there is total equality and equal treatment and opportunities for ALL people of Pakistan -as envisaged by Quaid e Azam. Freedom from any persecution. I however, will never agree with the media propaganda out there which claims Pakistan discriminates this or allows oppression of that or bla bla bla. Majority of Pakistanis are not intolerant people.

 

[venu309]

I've been reading all the posts in this thread & I must say with dismay that lot of members seem to have extreme, unpractical & illogical ideas. I think humanity should have a topmost priority followed by your country & then religion...

 

[muse]

How many people think that it is "just" that everybody should be equal before the law?

How many people think that the equality of all human beings is a Islamic value??


If you think that the equality of all before the law is a position of conscience then of course, you stand with Jinnah and the Islam of our fore fathers. And of course that is a pillar of Secular governance.

The Islamist, not the same things as the Muslim, is persuaded that the totality of governance ought to be religious law, and here they do not mean their voluntary association with religious law in their personal life, but rather the imposition of religious law in the public sphere.

And that of course means that persons cannot be equal before the law, and therefore a fundamentally unjust society and governance, results.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Freedom from any persecution. I however, will never agree with the media propaganda out there which claims Pakistan discriminates this or allows oppression of that or bla bla bla. Majority of Pakistanis are not intolerant people.

How can you hold this position (or belief) when you know how the Ahmadiyya community is treated in Pakistan, including under Pakistani law?

 

[muse]

AZ

See if this is the kind of Pakistan you can be proud of:

Most people seem to suffer from a preconceived, inherent repulsion to the idea of secularism, equating it with atheism, anarchy, anti-religious or, more importantly, anti-Islamic concept. What do we really mean by a ‘secular’ Pakistan? We mean a nation that neither supports nor opposes any religion, where all citizens, regardless of their faith, are respected and treated as equal. It defines a state in which the faith of citizens becomes irrelevant for the will of the majority reigns supreme. Pakistan was conceived as a country where every citizen will live in harmony while practising their individual faiths without interfering in the beliefs of others. Pakistan equally belongs to the Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Hindus, atheists and all other minorities living in it. We are all Pakistanis first. Going by this definition, it is all the more clear that Islam carries within itself the inherent attributes of a secular code of conduct, forming the very foundation of the Islamic beliefs.

Of course I know that this is exactly what you would want - because it is essentially a position that is rooted in the Islam of our fore fathers - Aug 11 1947 Jinnah - consider:

You are free ; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed-that has nothing to do with the business of the State...I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

All Pakistanis, all equal before the law, all free to worship or not, as they are persuaded by conscience. This is what Jinnah wanted of the Pakistan that he, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Quaid e Azaam, created.

Lets have confidence in our Islam, the Islam of our fore fathers, in our being Muslim, or Christian, or Hindu or Sikh, or Jew, Or Atheist, in OUR Pakistan.

 

[muse]

And this is what an UNJUST and therefore fundamentally unMuslim, unIslamic society is like, where Equality before the law does not exist:


Sikhs kept out of their own temple for Shab-e-Barat
By Abdul Manan
Published: July 17, 2011
LAHORE:

The Sikh community in Lahore have been prevented from observing a religious celebration at a gurdwara, their musical equipment thrown out and their entry barred, after a religious group persuaded the Evacuee Trust Property Board (ETPB) that celebrating the Muslim holy day of Shab-e-Barat was more important than the Sikh religious festival.

Police have been deployed outside the temple to prevent the Sikhs from conducting their religious ceremonies until the end of Shab-e-Barat, which falls on July 18 this year. The Sikh community wanted to commemorate an eighteenth-century saint on July 16.

The Gurdwara Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh, in Naulakha Bazaar, Lahore, is built to honour the memory of a Sikh saint who was executed in 1745 on the orders of the Mughal governor of Punjab, Zakaria Khan. Every July, the Sikh community has held religious ceremonies to commemorate his sacrifice in the service of humanity.

While the temple was taken over by the ETPB after Partition, the Sikh community had been allowed to continue using it with relatively few restrictions.

Until four years ago.

It was then that a gang of young men from the Dawat-e-Islami, a Barelvi proselytising group, claimed that the gurdwara was located on the site of the burial place of a fifteenth century Muslim saint, Pir Shah Kaku. The group claims that Kaku was the grandson of Baba Fariduddin Ganjshakar, an implausible claim since Ganjshakar died in 1280, while they claim that Kaku died almost 200 years later, in 1477.

The Sikh community had approached the ETPB, which had then allowed both communities to observe their religious rituals according to their own beliefs at the temple. The group used it every Thursday for prayer services while the Sikh community used it once a year for the anniversary of Taru Singh’s martyrdom.

This year, however, when young men from the Sikh community went in to set up their musical instruments on July 13, they were thrown out by the men from Dawat-e-Islami and prevented from re-entering.

Members of the Sikh community, many of whom fear to be identified, said that the leader of the group of men, Sohail Butt, claimed that the temple was now a mosque and that they would not be allowed to bring in their musical instruments any more.

Butt admitted to preventing the Sikhs from performing their ritual, claiming that the temple was inside the courtyard of the mosque.

“Shab-e-Barat is more important than the Sikh ritual,” Butt said, adding that the ETPB had accepted his group’s stance.

Officials from the ETPB admit that they have asked the Sikh community to postpone their celebrations until after Shab-e-Barat.

ETPB Deputy Administrator Faraz Abbas, who deals with Sikh affairs across the country, even admitted that they had been denied entry into the temple though denied that any musical instruments had been thrown out of the gurdwara.

ETPB Chairman Asif Hashmi was not available for comment as he is abroad.

The incident, however, has been highly distressing for the Sikh community.

Gurunanak Mission President Sardar Bishon Singh told The Express Tribune that the ETPB’s decision to bar Sikhs from entering their temple was against the constitution. He said that he approached the ETPB but was told to wait until after Shab-e-Barat.

“How can we postpone the rituals of our faith,” he asked, adding that the government was not paying attention to their cause.

Singh claimed that the ETPB is planning to gradually eliminate and sell all gurdwaras from Pakistan, alarming for Sikhs around the world. He appealed to Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry to take suo motu action over the violation of rights of minorities in the country.

 

[Mughal1]

Dear friends, debate is not between islam v secularism but between what muslims and nonmuslims think islam is and whether they are right or wrong about their understanding of islam and what is the clear cut proof that cannot be refuted by either people.

The main point is what is best system for running our world affairs? As we know people are families and bigger families are extended families yet bigger ones are called clans and even bigger ones are called tribes. Tribes joined together and became kingdoms and kingdoms over ran over each other to become empires.

Absolute imperialism saturated and collapsed under its own weight because when people do not get what they need they go their own ways. This break up gave rise to political and economic changes so we have had a period of political and economic imperialism for last couple of centuries. To me it seems that our current set up is also saturated and is waiting for collapse any time soon. The question is what will replace it?

This is where islam comes in and that is the direction the world is moving in be it unknowingly. It is not islam of mullahs or nonmuslms who think Muhammad was a child molester, a highway bandit, a war monger and the rest of it. It is islam that is in the quran and the hadith that is not understood by almost all people regardless muslims or nonmuslims because there has been always conspiracies against that islam by imperialist forces to deliberately misinterpret it.

The islam that is taught in muslim countries and preached all over the place and is reacted to by nonmuslims is imperial version of it. The divine version is there and it can be proven from the quran if anyone is interested in knowing about it but it is not wide spread yet.

This version was realise by sir seyyed ahmed khan, iqbal, jinnah, ghulam ahmed parwez and the like. Pakistan was created for the purpose of implementation of divine version of islam as a pilot project so that if this project is successful the world will have a new world order to live by.

From this version of islam one can recover original hinduism, parsi-ism, judaism, christianity etc. It is because once the final divine message is understood properly then it can be used as a criterion to know the rest of them as to what they originally were.

Islam is divine moral rule of law. It is to for creating divine kingdom here on this earth for the good of humanity.

regards and all the best.

 

[muse]

Pakistan was created for the purpose of implementation of divine version of islam

An outright non-truth

Sorry Mughul1, but what you have written is simply not accurate

"In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims-Hindus, Christians and Parsis - but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.Jinnah

 

[Omar1984]

Secularism is not possible in Pakistan. Only Islam binds the people of Pakistan. If there is no Islam in Pakistan, then ethnic nationalism will grow and that will break up Pakistan into Independnet Pashtunistan, Independent Balochistan, Independent Sindudesh. In other words, bharati dreams come true.

 

[muse]

Sounds like a army dream come come true -- Did Islam hold East Pakistan to West Pakistan - in Islamist Pakistan, it's no longer just which language which ethnicity, but which Islam, which Shariah, which figaq, which figh -- friends, it is justice, equality and brotherhood that binds peoples in VOLUNTARY association - Islam is the religion of Faith in God, not a tool of politics.

Lets be true to the Quaid e Azaam, lets be true to a Just, equal Pakistan for ALL.

 

[Vibs]

Secularism is not possible in Pakistan. Only Islam binds the people of Pakistan. If there is no Islam in Pakistan, then ethnic nationalism will grow and that will break up Pakistan into Independnet Pashtunistan, Independent Balochistan, Independent Sindudesh. In other words, bharati dreams come true.

By your logic of religion binding a country, China should not exist. Patriotism and good governance are what form the foundation of a nation. Religion can be interpreted in many ways and can lead to sectarian divisions.

 

[Mughal1]

An outright non-truth

Sorry Mughul1, but what you have written is simply not accurate

"In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims-Hindus, Christians and Parsis - but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.Jinnah

Dear muse, would you please read what I have written? I do not see any future for theocratic islam, for that is muslim imperialism ie using islam but carrying on with imperialist ruling system. Moreover sir seyyed ahmed khan, iqbal, jinnah or parwez etc were not mullahs, were they?

Mullahs were tools of muslim emperors in times long past but they are tools of ruling elite in today's world.

Islam is not a personality cult nor personality based ruling system rather it is one rule for all ie based upon single standard which does not allow double standards between human beings. There is no ruler and the ruled in islam, for all people are really equal before the law regardless prophets or followers. Administration is there for serving humanity according to rule of law not for ruling it.

regards and all the best.

 

[muse]

Mughal Sahab:

I have an issue with the "Divine version of Islam" -- It's the wording -- after all are we "divine" or human beings? If human, then how "Divine"?

I know what you are getting at - I simply wish to plug any holes the worms and rats can creep in from.

 

[Mughal1]

Sounds like a army dream come come true -- Did Islam hold East Pakistan to West Pakistan - in Islamist Pakistan, it's no longer just which language which ethnicity, but which Islam, which Shariah, which figaq, which figh -- friends, it is justice, equality and brotherhood that binds peoples in VOLUNTARY association - Islam is the religion of Faith in God, not a tool of politics.

Lets be true to the Quaid e Azaam, lets be true to a Just, equal Pakistan for ALL.

Dear muse, East Pakistan was lost because of mullaism because they tried to control pakistan instead of learning what islam was and how to implement it to make pakistan an exemplary state. The other enemy was ruling elite. Break up of pakistan was due to muslims for their lack of understanding of proper and not due to islam.

Islam is not what mullahs think islam is. if anyone is willing to debate the issue I do not mind particularly those friends who follow mullaism rather than the quran.

Mullahs have done one thing right ie kept information of islam intact but they never managed to put that information together to understand it properly and that is where they ignorantly or deliberately failed this ummah very badly as well as humanity at large.

regards and all the best.