Vietnam visit: Anti-American exhibits abound, but people are friendly

[Tigershark]

No, kid. It should be YOU who should keep your origin to yourself. You who have no experience in the Vietnam War and yet is pining about 'closure' from some imaginary trauma. That is truly shameless and insulting to those of us, in-country and out, who were affected by the war, who has real memories of real traumas, and yet does not whine about any 'closure'. We are your kind's worst nightmare.

Truth is truth, no matter who speaks it. Your attempt to deflect American culpability by claiming that only Vietnamese have the moral authority to judge American actions in the Vietnam war is ridiculous. The truth is that Americans sprayed chemical weapons which injured and killed innocent civilians; they massacred entire villages; they displaced millions. The truth is that Americans committed war crimes in Vietnam.

 

[gambit]

By your logic, USA is the biggest islamic terrorist state in the world, as it gives ideological and political support for Bin Laden in 1980's and Xinjiang rebels in 1990's and now!

UbL told Robert Fisk, no friend of the US, that...

Interviews with Osama bin Laden in 1996 by Robert Fisk@Everything2.com

"Personally neither I nor my brothers saw evidence of American help.

Also, the word "communism" is not mentioned in China's constitution!

Neither does meddling in other countries' affairs. Neither does dis-respecting IP laws.

 

[gambit]

Truth is truth, no matter who speaks it. Your attempt to deflect American culpability by claiming that only Vietnamese have the moral authority to judge American actions in the Vietnam war is ridiculous. The truth is that Americans sprayed chemical weapons which injured and killed innocent civilians; they massacred entire villages; they displaced millions. The truth is that Americans committed war crimes in Vietnam.

And the truth is that if China did not meddle in Viet Nam, none of those things would happen.

 

[Obambam]

Even in the Pacific, the British was a major power, so it was only common sense that a competent Allied power established control whenever and wherever possible. At the very least, order, not law, must be maintained and that was why Japanese garrisons were instructed NOT to lay down their arms until relieved. That is common sense. If the few Brits can only maintain control in parts of Indochina, it was better than chaos.

Wrong. They couldn't even defend Hong Kong which is a small city in comparison, what makes you think that they have the power to march into Vietnam just like that? Their men power were starved and majority of the British forced were in the EU and large number of British vessels had been sunk by German U-Boats. Not to mention, THe Brits traded some of their ports and bases that they used to own for warships with the Americans. Bottom line is, if a force as deteriorated as the Brits can march in like that, then it wouldn't take long before the French can come in which they did and that is common sense. Vietnam didn't even have an army, all they had was peasent armies who acted as Guerrillas at the time.

Of course there were times in human history where evil did triumphed. No one is denying that fact. But does victory made that evil any more acceptable and less evil? I guess one you boys answered that question well enough when he admitted that the end does justified the means. For that line of thinking, humanity will continue to suffer in the future.

Well, I wouldn't say evil. There is no such thing as good or evil divide when it comes to describing Communism and Democratics. They both have flaws. Humanity will continue to suffer so long there are still people such as yourself is still around who is racist and distorts and makes a mockery out of history. Japanese in denial of its WWII attrocities comes to mind.

No...It is not I who 'insist' on anything. The implication that the Chinese is the superior Asian has been thrown around here often enough. It proved that the Chinese is no less racist than the Yamato who plunged Asia into a world war.

Well, it is you who is making such assumptions and making huge sweeping statements about us Chinese. I have Vietnamese friends and thank God they are not racist like you are. I guess American bred self proclaimed Vietnamese are as racist as the KKK and have lobsided ideologies and opinions.

 

[Obambam]

Obambam I gotta admire your patience.

"patience is a virtue"

 

[Tigershark]

And the truth is that if China did not meddle in Viet Nam, none of those things would happen.

If the South Vietnam government was serious about reform and better served the interest of the peasant then maybe you might have had a chance.

 

[gambit]

If the South Vietnam government was serious about reform and better served the interest of the peasant then maybe you might have had a chance.

Talk about an epic failure to keep up. This is about before there was a partition.

 

[gambit]

Wrong. They couldn't even defend Hong Kong which is a small city in comparison, what makes you think that they have the power to march into Vietnam just like that? Their men power were starved and majority of the British forced were in the EU and large number of British vessels had been sunk by German U-Boats. Not to mention, THe Brits traded some of their ports and bases that they used to own for warships with the Americans. Bottom line is, if a force as deteriorated as the Brits can march in like that, then it wouldn't take long before the French can come in which they did and that is common sense. Vietnam didn't even have an army, all they had was peasent armies who acted as Guerrillas at the time.

This is laughable. The word 'competent' in this context does not mean militarily competent, meaning able to defeat all contenders. It mean the figure is a recognized member of the victorious alliance who is duly authorized to speak on the alliance's behalf on some or all matters. An agent, so to speak. In that vein, when the Allies ordered the Japanese garrisons to KEEP arms and to maintain order, for a while, those Japanese garrisons were duly appointed agents. Damn...!!! This is funny sh!!t.

Well, I wouldn't say evil. There is no such thing as good or evil divide when it comes to describing Communism and Democratics. They both have flaws. Humanity will continue to suffer so long there are still people such as yourself is still around who is racist and distorts and makes a mockery out of history. Japanese in denial of its WWII attrocities comes to mind.

I would and did.

Well, it is you who is making such assumptions and making huge sweeping statements about us Chinese. I have Vietnamese friends and thank God they are not racist like you are. I guess American bred self proclaimed Vietnamese are as racist as the KKK and have lobsided ideologies and opinions.

Buddy...Am not the one who threw up and made up IQ statistics about Vietnamese......You might want to talk to the Chinese guy who did for Chinese.

 

[Obambam]

It is clear evident of a failed argument when the person persists on repeating the same debunked claim. France may have been a US ally for the purposes of war, but not when it came to the moral issue of colonialism. That fact is undeniable. Like I said, am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you were ignorant of how the US really felt about Indochina. You were ignorant of the fact that it was Ho who committed Viet Nam back to France. To this day, you Chinese boys cannot bring yourselves to answer the question if there were rivals to Ho or not. To do so would blow wide open the myth about Ho and the Viet Minh so cultivated by Chinese propaganda. But it is too late. The current generation of Vietnamese are learning about the true causes of the Vietnam War and they will not look kindly upon China about it.

Which goes to show that US is either powerless to stand on a UN pulpit to stop the bullying as you have mentioned earlier somewhere. They did not condem nor did they intervene. In Vietnam however, they didn't think twice before flying in there to support the western established puppet government. Is that logical to you? I don't think you are even old enough to tell who your mother and father was back then to understand the true nature of the war. Typical brainwashed trying to argue against well known facts. I can bet you pounds to fish & chips that you are just as ignorant as you claim we are in understanding how Chinese really felt about indochina. Americans had nothing to worry about apart from the fear of losing their imperial powers. Explains the fact why the US is an imperialist nation doesn't it? You are just going around in loops about points that got debunked over and over. If that's the way you spread American propaganda, then it is failing. Just look at the middle east where people are waking up now? Even your own people are starting to wake up.

Nonsense...The US did not 'invent' any of the sort. The 'Ricans had a chance to vote for independence and they voted 'No'. Am willing to bet dollars-to-doughnuts that you did not know about this. For someone who self-righteously preached about 'history' you are woefully inadequate in this discussion.

You aer just one sorry confused individual who is out there trying the best to defend your shattered "American dream". I can bet you pound to fish and chips that you didn't even know about Vietnam as you claim you do. It is shameful for some one who is clearly an American trying to claim a righteous spot in the history of Vietnam. We all know the real part Americans played there. It takes little to no effort at all to bring up all the crimes which they have committed during the war. You clearly is inadeuqte in your conquest to defend your false flag democracy. Not only are you confused with your own ideologies, I can bet you that you didnt know about how America let Shiro Ishii off the hook after the Unit 741 attrocities do you? It is still considerered the worse attrocities to have ever happened in mankind. You must be a looney or simply incompetent as an individual to distinguish from what is right to what is wrong. People like you shouldn't even be talking about history as you have no idea what you are talking about at all.

 

[Obambam]

This is laughable. The word 'competent' in this context does not mean militarily competent, meaning able to defeat all contenders. It mean the figure is a recognized member of the victorious alliance who is duly authorized to speak on the alliance's behalf on some or all matters. An agent, so to speak. In that vein, when the Allies ordered the Japanese garrisons to KEEP arms and to maintain order, for a while, those Japanese garrisons were duly appointed agents. Damn...!!! This is funny sh!!t.

Allied forces ordered Japanese garrisons to keep arms to maintain order? boy you must be out of this world. It is clear now that you have nothing but just warped concepts regarding the war. They fought the Japanese in the pacific and they were disarming them after they lost the war, and here you are telling us that they were told to keep arm and to maintain order? dude, what have you been smoking? that stuff must be strong!

I would and did.

that's because you aren't even considered a real Vietnamese. You boated out of Vietnam at a young age so I don't blame your warped understanding on human history. You are probably one of those who takes stuff like Fox News seriously.

Buddy...Am not the one who threw up and made up IQ statistics about Vietnamese......You might want to talk to the Chinese guy who did for Chinese.

I don't really care about the IQ statistics that you are talking about as I am not here to discuss about that. IQ doesn't explain history my friend. I only care about what you and I are talking about

 

[gambit]

Which goes to show that US is either powerless to stand on a UN pulpit to stop the bullying as you have mentioned earlier somewhere. They did not condem nor did they intervene.

The condemnation was already known via Roosevelt. As to the 'intervene' charge, how? The US was appraised of the Ho-Sainteny Agreement AFTER the deal was done. France basically told the US: 'Nyah...Nyah...The Vietnamese asked us to come back in.' There are recollections and records of many who were forced by the Viet Minh to stand alongside the road waving French flags welcoming France back in. Where do you think Ho's comment about smelling French sh!t for a few years over eating Chinese sh!t for one hundred came from?

In Vietnam however, they didn't think twice before flying in there to support the western established puppet government. Is that logical to you?

No less illogical than your assertion that China was somehow 'justified' in meddling in Viet Nam. And do not forget that China was in Viet Nam long before the US.

I don't think you are even old enough to tell who your mother and father was back then to understand the true nature of the war. Typical brainwashed trying to argue against well known facts. I can bet you pounds to fish & chips that you are just as ignorant as you claim we are in understanding how Chinese really felt about indochina.

No...It is YOU who are the brainwashed one here. Am not disputing any facts. But the facts that you have to me so far are only part of the picture. The facts that I presented so far present a more complete view of the picture. Like I said, the Ho-Sainteny Agreement is probably the least known in popular discussions about the Vietnam War and its causes. But once the person is aware of it and how the US really felt about Indochina, his opinions about the war always change to a different path. At least the honest ones I discussed this with.

Americans had nothing to worry about apart from the fear of losing their imperial powers. Explains the fact why the US is an imperialist nation doesn't it? You are just going around in loops about points that got debunked over and over. If that's the way you spread American propaganda, then it is failing. Just look at the middle east where people are waking up now? Even your own people are starting to wake up.

You debunked nothing. If anything, I have been the one who educated you.

You aer just one sorry confused individual who is out there trying the best to defend your shattered "American dream". I can bet you pound to fish and chips that you didn't even know about Vietnam as you claim you do. It is shameful for some one who is clearly an American trying to claim a righteous spot in the history of Vietnam. We all know the real part Americans played there. It takes little to no effort at all to bring up all the crimes which they have committed during the war. You clearly is inadeuqte in your conquest to defend your false flag democracy. Not only are you confused with your own ideologies, I can bet you that you didnt know about how America let Shiro Ishii off the hook after the Unit 741 attrocities do you? It is still considerered the worse attrocities to have ever happened in mankind. You must be a looney or simply incompetent as an individual to distinguish from what is right to what is wrong. People like you shouldn't even be talking about history as you have no idea what you are talking about at all.

This is nothing more than a mindless rant from a failed argument.

 

[gambit]

Allied forces ordered Japanese garrisons to keep arms to maintain order? boy you must be out of this world. It is clear now that you have nothing but just warped concepts regarding the war. They fought the Japanese in the pacific and they were disarming them after they lost the war, and here you are telling us that they were told to keep arm and to maintain order? dude, what have you been smoking? that stuff must be strong!

The laugh is on YOU...

Ngo Van Xuyet: On Vietnam

...the Japanese, who had received instructions from the Allies to maintain order until the arrival of the Chinese troops.

Anything else I can educate you with?

 

[Obambam]

No...I do not. But I will show the readers on how misleading you Chinese boys have been about this subject...

In any war...In descending order of relevance...

- Ideological
- Political
- Strategic
- Operational
- Tactical

It is convenient that the statistics at the Operational and Tactical levels are available to use to mislead and hopefully to shut down any rational discussions about the Vietnam War. Those statistics would be bombs dropped, gallons of Agent Orange, war crimes committed by US troops, commentaries about the war, and so on...What is dismissed are the ideological and political motivations that created the situation where those horrific statistics can come to be and the facts bears out the truth that for the Vietnam War, in order of relevance as to its cause...

- Ho Chi Minh
- France
- China
-

US

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You are not even explaining anything. So how are we differen't to the way you are at explaining the war? We can easily come up with the figures and documented facts but you? you are simply plucking things from thin air and adding it on to your poorly pieced up arguments. So is it humane to make civilians the scapegoats of war? is that the reason why you guys used atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasak, agent orange in Vietnam and rape countless children and defenseless women?

What make you think the Vietnamese could not oust the French? We did it to China in the past. Communist China meddled in the affairs of other countries, starting with Viet Nam and was a co-instigator of the Vietnam War.

and what makes you think that they can? with the way French, Brit and the US meddling with Vietnam, sure.

I only care what the Chinese government said about the country it rule over. If you think otherwise, do try to let the Chinese government know.

So are you still denying that China is still a communist country?

 

[gambit]

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You are not even explaining anything. So how are we differen't to the way you are at explaining the war? We can easily come up with the figures and documented facts but you? you are simply plucking things from thin air and adding it on to your poorly pieced up arguments. So is it humane to make civilians the scapegoats of war? is that the reason why you guys used atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasak, agent orange in Vietnam and rape countless children and defenseless women?

Of course you can come up with documented facts of American tactics and operations that resulted in X number of Vietnamese deaths. But that is to distract from the more important fact that IF China had not meddled in Viet Nam out of ideological and political motivations, those operational and tactical statistics would not have come to be. That is the uncomfortable argument for you Chinese boys.

and what makes you think that they can? with the way French, Brit and the US meddling with Vietnam, sure.

Right...And here we see the completed circular argument from the condescending Chinese camp. China had to get involved because the Viets could not despite the fact that in history, the Viets had more than once defeated the Chinese.

So are you still denying that China is still a communist country?

Not at all. Am just going by what the Chinese government said about itself and the ideological foundation of its constitution.

 

[Obambam]

The laugh is on YOU...

Ngo Van Xuyet: On Vietnam

Anything else I can educate you with?

Actually, the laugh is on YOU, not ME.

Vietnam War Statistics and Facts 3

Allied plans for postwar Vietnam became clear with the Potsdam Agreement in July 1945. This Agreement stipulated that British forces were to occupy the southern half of Vietnam, up to the 16th parallel. Chiang Kai-shek's forces were to take the country north of the 16th parallel. Under Potsdam, these forces were restricted to "the round-up and disarming of the Japanese

Anything else I can lecture you with?