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Vietnam Goes Shopping for U.S. Weapons

India, Vietnam, Japan, Philippines = a Gang of Four to rape China for the USA eh?

Really? I think its China that is doing the raping. Who is it in the region that everybody is concerned about? China or USA? Did ASEAN just complained about USA? no, about China.
 
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First, you must let the US Navy use your Cam Ranh Bay.
a permanent US base in cam ranh is unlikely. no, it is not an option on the table now.

for now, the US has limited access to the bay. means US warships come at special events such as joint training exercises, refueling or repairs. in the short term the Vietnam government has the option to grant more regular port calls to the US warships as part of strategic partnership that Vietnam wants to establish. as a friend, Russia pacific fleet has very easy access to the bay for rest and refueling.

the other scenario is, the US gives Vietnam money and technology to create artificial islands in the SC Sea, that will host US permanent base.

You forgot India.
no, I don´t forget india. but considering india´s non-alignment policy and its actual strategic interests, it is very unlikely to see it happens. india security concern is china and pakistan. not the SC Sea.
 
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no, I don´t forget india. but considering india´s non-alignment policy and its actual strategic interests, it is very unlikely to see it happens. india security concern is china and pakistan. not the SC Sea.

No, no, they have already expressed concern about SCS in very strong terms and they have oil fields in the Vietnam EEC. Their position is becoming much more of a hard line now and also because china keeps upping the ante when it comes to arming Pakistan, so India feels that it has to retaliate by getting closer to Vietnam. There is a lot going on under the covers.
 
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I believe, more important than f-16 for Vietnam now is seeking a informal economic and military alliance with the trio: America, Japan and Philippines. informal now, formal later if necessary. the likelihood the Chinese ease arrogance and aggression is low. there is no solution in sight in the dispute on the horizon, either, because CCP commies believe they can subjugate Vietnam by their sheer economic and military power.

I think even the most pro-china people within VCP realize it after the oil rig provocation.
Has to start somewhere. When the Soviet Union existed, Marxism-Leninism may have been the ideological common ground that compelled communist countries to at least TRY to settle their differences amicably, and we know there were serious rifts. But that is not the case anymore. Now, if you are not in the democratic/capitalist camp, you are essentially on your own, and right now, Viet Nam is on her own. Absent ideology, the Chinese have been placing their own national interests over others, and will run over Viet Nam if necessary.

Naval Defence Act 1889 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Naval Defence Act 1889 was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, instituted on May 31, 1889 to adopt formally the country's "two-power standard" and increase the United Kingdom's naval strength. The standard called for the Royal Navy to maintain a number of battleships at least equal to the combined strength of the next two largest navies in the world which at that point were France and Russia. The act provided an extra £20 million over the following four years for ten new battleships, thirty-eight new cruisers, eighteen new torpedo boats and four new fast gunboats.

The primary rationales behind the Naval Defence Act were military and economic.
Despite the advent of air power, if there is access to the oceans, the navy is STILL the measure on which a country's power rests.

After WW II, the US Navy became the world's most powerful navy because the war pretty much destroyed most of the world's navies. But it is peacetime that is significant and it was during peace time that the Royal Navy adopted the 'two power' standard. China is following the Royal Navy's footsteps, practically walking in the same. It was economic weaknesses that made China vulnerable to colonial exploitation by the Europeans. The US had no interests in mainland China. It was access to raw materials and to international trade that built modern day Japan and South Korea into political, military, and economic powerhouses they are today.

China cannot use the 'two-power' standard against the US, even though the US Navy have considerably drawn down since the ignoble collapse of the Soviets, the US Navy is a combat hardened force with 10x the naval warfare institutional knowledge and ability to execute innovative tactics that will sink just about every PLAN vessels that are 10km out of ports. However, China can and actually is doing that 'two-power' standard buildup against regional Asian navies in order to intimidate smaller Asian countries into submission.

Is the Russian Navy going to help Viet Nam ? Abso-fucking-lutely NOT. Russia have no interests in having any Asian challengers to China. There are already two -- Japan and South Korea -- that are right at China's doorstep. Buying arms from Russia is like playing the green tables at Vegas with Viet Nam being the loser. Is Russia going to ally with Viet Nam ? If yes, then how many Su-30s will Russia sell to Viet Nam in order to make militarily viable ?

Look at the map and see for yourself -- Viet Nam depends on access to the South China Sea in order to survive and not be a Chinese vassal state. The South Koreans and the Japanese can fend off China in the East China Sea. They and the Phis will -- not only survive -- but continues to prosper. But Viet Nam will be trapped.

The pro-China fools in the Vietnamese government are exactly that -- fools.
 
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No, no, they have already expressed concern about SCS in very strong terms and they have oil fields in the Vietnam EEC. Their position is becoming much more of a hard line now and also because china keeps upping the ante when it comes to arming Pakistan, so India feels that it has to retaliate by getting closer to Vietnam. There is a lot going on under the covers.
sure, Vietnam and India share the same enemy: China. I don´t question India military capability, either. but there are many reasons that gives little chance of a formal military alliance with India. one of the reasons is as I mention india non-alignment policy, the other is Pakistan. the country could see it as Vietnam hostile act.
 
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There is indeed a great risk of that, that old party guard is what has been keeping VN backward and always hoping that their comrades at the northern border share their sense of being fraternal allies even that all the evidence points to the contrary. I would hope that after the oil rig episode, things are clear enough, but I'm not 100% sure.
I have always believe that communism, or more precisely Marxism-Leninism, make people stupid.
 
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sure, Vietnam and India share the same enemy: China. I don´t question India military capability, either. but there are many reasons that gives little chance of a formal military alliance with India. one of the reasons is as I mention india non-alignment policy, the other is Pakistan. the country could see it as Vietnam hostile act.
you vietnam is scared of pakistan? or just use it as a excuse. you little viets.
 
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I believe, more important than f-16 for Vietnam now is seeking a informal economic and military alliance with the trio: America, Japan and Philippines. informal now, formal later if necessary. the likelihood the Chinese ease arrogance and aggression is low. there is no solution in sight in the dispute on the horizon, either, because CCP commies believe they can subjugate Vietnam by their sheer economic and military power.

I think even the most pro-china people within VCP realize it after the oil rig provocation.
Hey, boy, have you finished your gift mail to Santa Claus?
 
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I have always believe that communism, or more precisely Marxism-Leninism, make people stupid.

I have a bit of respect for people that based on ideals, initiate movements, revolutions and so on since they are willing to fight and die for their ideals even if later on, history shows that they were actually wrong; in Marxism-Leninism, I particularly have a certain level of respect for Trotsky and Lenin (certainly not for Stalin), but that being said, the legacy of ALL communist regimes has been that they created a new class, a class of bureaucrats that are in power and stay in power by force and by and large, their typical characteristics are inefficiency, incompetence and corruption. There isn't a single communist regime where that does not apply. They are all basket cases, where everything that the ruling bureaucracy touches, they mess it up. Vietnam is certainly no exception to the rule and in the end ALL those countries had no alternative but to reform in a way where communism is nothing but a name. The original ideas were not necessarily bad, but they have been proven unworkable in practice. There are only 5 communist countries left, lets see for how long.

sure, Vietnam and India share the same enemy: China. I don´t question India military capability, either. but there are many reasons that gives little chance of a formal military alliance with India. one of the reasons is as I mention india non-alignment policy, the other is Pakistan. the country could see it as Vietnam hostile act.

I don't think Vietnam will have a formal military alliance with anybody any time soon, I think only extreme circumstances would be conducive to that.

the US Navy is a combat hardened force with 10x the naval warfare institutional knowledge and ability to execute innovative tactics that will sink just about every PLAN vessels that are 10km out of ports. .

That is precisely the point that many people here usually miss. The US military has been at war non stop for decades and even that we are usually talking about low intensity warfare, still, what that does in terms of training, readiness, sharpening skills, fine tuning weapon systems and tactics etc, etc its something that a country like China could only dream of having.
 
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I have a bit of respect for people that based on ideals, initiate movements, revolutions and so on since they are willing to fight and die for their ideals even if later on, history shows that they were actually wrong; in Marxism-Leninism, I particularly have a certain level of respect for Trotsky and Lenin (certainly not for Stalin), but that being said, the legacy of ALL communist regimes has been that they created a new class, a class of bureaucrats that are in power and stay in power by force and by and large, their typical characteristics are inefficiency, incompetence and corruption. There isn't a single communist regime where that does not apply. They are all basket cases, where everything that the ruling bureaucracy touches, they mess it up. Vietnam is certainly no exception to the rule and in the end ALL those countries had no alternative but to reform in a way where communism is nothing but a name.
There will ALWAYS be a class of something.

Back in 'the old days', the classes were clearly defined and the barriers between them were nearly impossible to breach. If the Crown was appointed by God, then it literally took the proverbial 'Act of God' to move a person out of one class and into another. But even with and despite all sorts of political emancipation, freedoms clarified, and rights enforced, people naturally created their own classes. If someone have more of something than his fellow citizens, he is in a different class. Without nobility (birth) and/or money (capitalism), the item that delineate a certain kind of people from the rest is political --bureaucratic. The currency being exchanged composed of political connections and influence peddling. No better or worse than collusion between a duke and an earl, or between a millionaire and a politician.

The fools that believed in Marxism-Leninism either missed or ignored the usual results that you pointed out: inefficiency, incompetence, and corruption. But I believe it is more of deliberate apathy that gave communist countries their (in)famous entrenchment and level of all those three items because it is beneficial for the existence of the bureaucratic class. Yes, The gears of a government must be kept moving but if I can benefit from them stopping once in a while -- why not ?

The original ideas were not necessarily bad, but they have been proven unworkable in practice. There are only 5 communist countries left, lets see for how long.
Those ideas are not bad in theory but in scale they are unworkable because they cannot deal with the human character of selfishness.

I have always said: That to date, the only successful Marxist community is the monastery and the only successful dictatorship is the family.

With the monastery, which includes the nunnery, all members are adults, intellectually and physically. Before each entrance, he/she knows exactly what lies over the threshold, as what sacrifices are expected and what responsibilities awaits. The monastery is exactly what Marxism expected of 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.' The members are volunteers and serves what they believes to be a set of higher ideals set by an all powerful being.

With the family, there is a benevolent dictatorship -- the parents -- that tends over a group of immature members who are immature in intellect and physical being.

Communism is the political expression of Marxism that married the structures of the monastery and the family into what we know for the past few decades, and with disastrous results that added bloody oppression to inefficiency, incompetence, and corruption. Each communist country had ostensibly a 'benevolent dictator' where instead of a supernatural deity there is the elevation of a human into the godhood and every member of the country is treated as a politically immature 'child' that must not be allowed to question the political god. Look at the veneration of Mao, then and today, in China. The history of Mao contains of quasi-supernatural events that border on Jesus turning water into wine. Cuba was and is no different with Fidel Castro and Che Guevara, and for the latter, naive Western women gushed. Do we need to even discuss the absurdities of North Korea ? And in every communist country, the bureaucratic class prospered, if not financially, then in political influence that occasionally stopped the gears of state from moving just to teach the political peasantry a few lessons and kept them in their places.

That is precisely the point that many people here usually miss. The US military has been at war non stop for decades and even that we are usually talking about low intensity warfare, still, what that does in terms of training, readiness, sharpening skills, fine tuning weapon systems and tactics etc, etc its something that a country like China could only dream of having.
The usual childish response is -- nuke. That is essentially the sorry state of intellectual discourses this forum sees from the Chinese camp.
 
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sure, we remember and are thankful to your help and assistance in the past. we don´t forget it.
but nevertheless that does NOT give you the right to invade our country, killing our people, supporting our enemy, showing your arrogance and aggression day after day. today.

You are thankful? And by thank you you mean side with USSR now siding with US? Did we killed as many as US did? Did we left you shiwered with agent orange?

Yea you can do whatever you want but don't pretend to be thankful, it is disgusting. Just be a selfserving backstabing nation like you always have been, we Chinese already saw your true faces, the only true friend we have is Pakistan.
 
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USSR never sell any nuclear technology to China, coz during whole COLD WAR (1960s~1980s) we r in different camps. China made Nuclear Bomb / Hydrogen bomb / Neutron bomb ... BTW drink less Vodka, that's bad for the brain.
  1. 1999 BBC:World: China boasts neutron bomb know-how
  2. Unlocking the Puzzle of China’s Neutron Bomb
  3. Wiki: Neutron bomb

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Lord Tyrannosaurus is not even Russian. He's a white guy that lives in US. When I started posting I remember coming across a thread where a member debunked this fake comrade to be a fake.

Vietnam is communist. I thought you despise communist countries. Why would you be enthusiastic about Vietnam getting the modernized F-16's?
Because he's a vietnamese.
 
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