Vietnam Goes Shopping for U.S. Weapons

[gambit]

Could you give an opinion as to how many years of typical operating life you expect that the newly received, upgraded Indonesian F-16s would have? As I understand, the upgrade and life extension that those aircraft have received is very comprehensive. I believe they are upgraded to Block 52 standard and at a total price of $31 million a pop (everything included), that's not bad at all. I think it would be very possible for Vietnam to receive a similar deal.

My opinion is at least 20yrs. This is assuming these F-16s will not be used the way the USAF and other Western powers uses theirs, which are more stressful, and that these Asian customers follows strict periodic maintenance schedules.

Aside from the typical 'repairs as needed' situations that are simply unpredictable, there are two major forms of periodic maintenance:

- Phase
- Depot

Phase maintenance is organizational level, meaning that air force can perform on its own.

Aircraft maintenance: It's just a phase > U.S. Air Force > Article Display

"We break down the jet, tear it apart and put it back together," said Tech. Sgt. Michael Schuler, a 442nd MXS phase dock technician. "A flying product is a working product; we open up all panels to inspect engine, frame, canopy and other critical components for any discrepancies."

The crews operate in two different phases, which are based on the amount of time necessary to breakdown the aircraft, the severity of any discrepancies and what repairs are needed.

"Every 500 flight hours, a jet is brought into a phase," said Senior Master Sgt. Kellie Askew, the 442nd MXS phase dock flight chief. "When one is rolled in, it takes approximately 15 days to complete a number one phase. A number two phase is more critical and can last from 19 to 20 days. In between these phases, we sometimes have a week break but other times we roll right from one phase into the next."

Depot maintenance is much more intensive, more time consuming, and essentially is manufacturer's level. It does not mean the manufacturer must perform the inspection, it mean the level of tear down and rebuild requires manufacturer's level of resources. The jet is stripped down even more in-depth than the phase maintenance.

14292_13

Depot-level maintenance supports O- and I-levelsof maintenance by providing engineering assistance and performing maintenance that is beyond the capability of O- and I-level activities. Depot maintenance is work that must be done in an industrial-type facility. Such a facility may either be civilian, military, or both. If the work is contracted out to a civilian facility, the type of work is still depot maintenance.

A simple example...

At phase maintenance, the wire harness is inspected, cleaned, and repaired if necessary, but essentially left in place.

At depot level maintenance, the wire harness will be removed from the aircraft, put on an electrical bench tester for various checks, connections are disassembled and replaced, then reinstalled. However, throughout the flow, if the inspector judge the harness unacceptable at any point, it is discarded and a new one built.

Literally any part that can be removed -- will be removed -- including major structures like the wings. Non destructive inspection (NDI) ranging from stress to X-ray testings will be performed, especially on critical airframe structures. Fuel tanks are chemically cleaned and/or bladders are replaced if necessary. All avionics are bench tested and replaced if necessary. All pneudraulics components are rebuilt.

Kunsan Air Base - Media Gallery

In the above media source from Kunsan AFB, South Korea, there are a couple of images that shows just a glimpse of the differences between the two types of major periodic maintenance.

If Indonesia or any customer follows these schedules, these used jets will serve them for a long time.

 

[hans]

What VN really need is AWCS planes..
So they could detect a larger area of South China Sea..
For air fighter, they already have pretty good Su30.
More F16 does not make much sense. but big trouble for their soviet supply system.

Vietnam should try to induct 7-8 squadrons of F-16s blk 52/60.

 

[Kylin]

If China need over 1000 J20, Vietnam only need less than 100 Su35

Agian, we HELPED you won the struggle against the French, now stop pretending you did all these by your own, may suit your ego but not the truth, at the same time, a great disrespect to those Chinese who died helping you.

 

[xunzi]

With all those money that they spend on "shopping" for weapon, they could have spend on infrastructure and help their poor citizen.

 

[Viet]

Agian, we HELPED you won the struggle against the French, now stop pretending you did all these by your own, may suit your ego but not the truth, at the same time, a great disrespect to those Chinese who died helping you.

sure, we remember and are thankful to your help and assistance in the past. we don´t forget it.
but nevertheless that does NOT give you the right to invade our country, killing our people, supporting our enemy, showing your arrogance and aggression day after day. today.

 

[xunzi]

sure, we remember and are thankful to your help and assistance in the past. we don´t forget it.
but nevertheless that does NOT give you the right to invade our country, killing our people, supporting our enemy, showing your arrogance and aggression day after day. today.

You INVADED a sovereign country, Cambodia, which trigger us to punish you for violating another country sovereignty.

 

[Viet]

Could you give an opinion as to how many years of typical operating life you expect that the newly received, upgraded Indonesian F-16s would have? As I understand, the upgrade and life extension that those aircraft have received is very comprehensive. I believe they are upgraded to Block 52 standard and at a total price of $31 million a pop (everything included), that's not bad at all. I think it would be very possible for Vietnam to receive a similar deal.

$31 million for a modernized f-16 with weapons included is not too bad. comparing to $50 million we pay for a Su-30, without weapons. I guess the operating life of a refurbished f-16 is 20 years. at best.

You INVADED a sovereign country, Cambodia, which trigger us to punish you for violating another country sovereignty.

Germany invaded the USSR in the WWII. according to your logic, the USSR had no right to fight back and invaded Germany? is it china logic?
it was Cambodia that invaded Vietnam, destroying our cities killing our people, with support from china. it is our right to revenge and annihilate them to the last man. no mercy.

you have no right to invade Vietnam. Cambodia was just your pawn. you even did not have a defence treaty with them.

 

[xunzi]

Germany invaded the USSR in the WWII. according to your logic, the USSR had no right to fight back and invaded Germany? is it china logic?
it was Cambodia that invaded Vietnam, destroying our cities killing our people, with support from china. it is our right to revenge and annihilate them to the last man. no mercy.

Bullshit comparison. LOL The Nazi tried to occupy whole Russia. Remember? The Cambodia had a dispute with you over Phu Quoc island. They invaded Pho Quoc island, not your mainland territory. If anything, it only give you the right to defend and push out the Cambodia force. Instead you use this small incident as justification and an opportunity to launch a massive invasion on Cambodia mainland, going as far as occupying their capital. The UN clearly punished you for that.

What do you mean we don't have right? We didn't occupy you, remember? Our thought was to punish you. The UN clearly wanted something to be done about Vietnam aggression.

 

[Viet]

Bullshit comparison. LOL The Nazi tried to occupy whole Russia. Remember? The Cambodia had a dispute with you over Phu Quoc island. They invaded Pho Quoc island, not your mainland territory. If anything, it only give you the right to defend and push out the Cambodia force. Instead you use this small incident as justification and an opportunity to launch a massive invasion on Cambodia mainland, going as far as occupying their capital. The UN clearly punished you for that.

What do you mean we don't have right? We didn't occupy you, remember? Our thought was to punish you. The UN clearly wanted something to be done about Vietnam aggression.

no, not only phu quoc island, Cambodia invaded Vietnam mainland, too. they attacked several border cities in southern Vietnam. but our army pushed them back every times. we warned them "stop now before it is too late". but they did not want to listen. they were too confident as they received support and backing from china. they ran for their lives when our tanks crushed through their armies like a knife cutting through butter.

no, not the whole UN. the eastern bloc supported Vietnam, especially the USSR and Czechoslovakia.

 

[Carlosa]

My opinion is at least 20yrs. This is assuming these F-16s will not be used the way the USAF and other Western powers uses theirs, which are more stressful, and that these Asian customers follows strict periodic maintenance schedules.

Aside from the typical 'repairs as needed' situations that are simply unpredictable, there are two major forms of periodic maintenance:

- Phase
- Depot

Phase maintenance is organizational level, meaning that air force can perform on its own.

Aircraft maintenance: It's just a phase > U.S. Air Force > Article Display


Depot maintenance is much more intensive, more time consuming, and essentially is manufacturer's level. It does not mean the manufacturer must perform the inspection, it mean the level of tear down and rebuild requires manufacturer's level of resources. The jet is stripped down even more in-depth than the phase maintenance.

14292_13


A simple example...

At phase maintenance, the wire harness is inspected, cleaned, and repaired if necessary, but essentially left in place.

At depot level maintenance, the wire harness will be removed from the aircraft, put on an electrical bench tester for various checks, connections are disassembled and replaced, then reinstalled. However, throughout the flow, if the inspector judge the harness unacceptable at any point, it is discarded and a new one built.

Literally any part that can be removed -- will be removed -- including major structures like the wings. Non destructive inspection (NDI) ranging from stress to X-ray testings will be performed, especially on critical airframe structures. Fuel tanks are chemically cleaned and/or bladders are replaced if necessary. All avionics are bench tested and replaced if necessary. All pneudraulics components are rebuilt.

Kunsan Air Base - Media Gallery

In the above media source from Kunsan AFB, South Korea, there are a couple of images that shows just a glimpse of the differences between the two types of major periodic maintenance.

If Indonesia or any customer follows these schedules, these used jets will serve them for a long time.

Thank you, very detailed answer. At least 20 years sounds like a good deal for the price, operating cost should also be much lower than a SU-30, worth it to have in my opinion.
That depot maintenance is extremely comprehensive, wow.

To those others that mentioned that F-16s are not worth it for Vietnam because of another logistical chain, I would say that it is worth it none the less because Vietnam badly needs a single engine fighter and since the Russians no longer make single engine fighters, the F-16 is a good choice. Operating and maintenance cost are often considered more expensive than the actual purchase cost of the aircraft and the SU-30s are known for being quite expensive to operate / maintain. If anybody wonders, just ask the Indians. The F-16 would be the perfect replacement for the Mig-21.

Also, it might be some shortcuts to some elements of the logistical chain since Israel operates its F-16s with the Israeli air to air missiles Python and Derby and Vietnam is also buying those missiles as part of the Spyder air defense system. I'm not sure what modification the Israelis might have done on the F-16s to use those missiles though.

 

[xunzi]

no, not only phu quoc island, Cambodia invaded Vietnam mainland, too. they attacked several border cities in southern Vietnam. but our army pushed them back every times. we warned them "stop now before it is too late". but they did not want to listen. they were too confident as they received support and backing from china. they ran for their lives when our tanks crushed through their armies like a knife cutting through butter.

no, not the whole UN. the eastern bloc supported Vietnam, especially the USSR and Czechoslovakia.

LOL Please! both raid each other territories. There were constant border clashes. We, China, try to intervene by mediated a peace talk, except you took it as Cambodia was Pro-China and that's why you used the Phu Quoc attack as opportunity to invade and occupy Cambodia people for your own selfish interest. The UN clearly see that through you and wanted to punish you. When I'm talking about UN, I'm not talking about the hypocrite US's led West allies or the Soviet's led East allies, I'm talking about the neutral countries, the one in the Non-aligned countries. Those countries listed most of South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Asia (including your friend Japan), Latin America, Africa, and Arab states did want to punish you for violating UN's respect of sovereign territorial integrity policy.

 

[Carlosa]

$31 million for a modernized f-16 with weapons included is not too bad. comparing to $50 million we pay for a Su-30, without weapons. I guess the operating life of a refurbished f-16 is 20 years. at best..

When you consider the operating cost, the F-16 is a bargain when compared to the SU-30.

 

[Viet]

LOL Please! both raid each other territories. There were constant border clashes. We, China, try to intervene by mediated a peace talk, except you took it as Cambodia was Pro-China and that's why you used the Phu Quoc attack as opportunity to invade and occupy Cambodia people for your own selfish interest. The UN clearly see that through you and wanted to punish you. When I'm talking about UN, I'm not talking about the hypocrite US's led West allies or the Soviet's led East allies, I'm talking about the neutral countries, the one in the Non-aligned countries. Those countries listed most of South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Asia (including your friend Japan), Latin America, Africa, and Arab states did want to punish you for violating UN's respect of sovereign territorial integrity policy.

...talking about hypocrite. you fail to understand why our people hate you chinese. because you are nothing more than a shameless hypocrite.
when siam annexed cambodia, why didn´t you intervene and start a war against thailand?

Good Development, Best wishes to Vietnam

how many F 16 Fighters Vietnam is buying from USA ?

now it is just a rumour and speculation. besides, the US still maintains by and large arms embargo.

 

[gambit]

$31 million for a modernized f-16 with weapons included is not too bad. comparing to $50 million we pay for a Su-30, without weapons. I guess the operating life of a refurbished f-16 is 20 years. at best.

At least. You should understand that the USAF is an expeditionary force, meaning we will tax our F-16 fleet more than other F-16 flyers will. Russia is a bad deal, and am not saying that because Russia is a US adversary. The Russians are renting out their front line fighters for tourists. That is how the Russian Air Force supplement its operating costs. The long term reliability of Russia as an arms supplier is dubious and even the Chinese knows it.

The F-16 is combat proven and is an accomplished flyer in all but the North and South Poles. The single engine fear is done -- not worth debating. The avionics architecture is reliable and was the pioneer for ALL advanced flight control systems today, civilian and military. No jet from Russia and China can claim that. In fact, the A/B analog flight control computers are still flying in test jets out at Edwards AFB and the Thais are flying the A/B analog jets and upgrades will extend the jets out to 2035. But if Viet Nam get the later digital blocs F-16, it will make the VNAF a more formidable deterrence to any potential adversary for at least 20 yrs out.

Thailand – F-16 Mid-Life Upgrade | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

WASHINGTON, September 30, 2010 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Sept. 29 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Thailand of a three-phased program to upgrade 18 F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft with the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) and associated parts, equipment, and logistical support for a complete package worth approximately $700 million.

The problem here is that the Vietnamese government still have enough ideological dinosaurs, with appropriate small brain sizes, to believe that Russia is an ideological ally in the mold of the Soviet Union of old. These fools WILL make the wrong decisions and will leave Viet Nam vulnerable to Chinese aggression.

 

[hans]

The VCP government is pretty clear about US intention of a color revolution.
Trust US will be a more severe problem for VCP..
VCP is trying to play with China using third parties like Russia, US, etc..

At least. You should understand that the USAF is an expeditionary force, meaning we will tax our F-16 fleet more than other F-16 flyers will. Russia is a bad deal, and am not saying that because Russia is a US adversary. The Russians are renting out their front line fighters for tourists. That is how the Russian Air Force supplement its operating costs. The long term reliability of Russia as an arms supplier is dubious and even the Chinese knows it.

The F-16 is combat proven and is an accomplished flyer in all but the North and South Poles. The single engine fear is done -- not worth debating. The avionics architecture is reliable and was the pioneer for ALL advanced flight control systems today, civilian and military. No jet from Russia and China can claim that. In fact, the A/B analog flight control computers are still flying in test jets out at Edwards AFB and the Thais are flying the A/B analog jets and upgrades will extend the jets out to 2035. But if Viet Nam get the later digital blocs F-16, it will make the VNAF a more formidable deterrence to any potential adversary for at least 20 yrs out.

Thailand – F-16 Mid-Life Upgrade | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

The problem here is that the Vietnamese government still have enough ideological dinosaurs, with appropriate small brain sizes, to believe that Russia is an ideological ally in the mold of the Soviet Union of old. These fools WILL make the wrong decisions and will leave Viet Nam vulnerable to Chinese aggression.

only operation cost, but do you forget the supply and maintenance system of VN is from Russia?
Wanna US sending guys to your airbase for fighter maintenance?
Or rely US on service of these planes??

When you consider the operating cost, the F-16 is a bargain when compared to the SU-30.