Vietnam Defence Forum

[William Hung]

Yes, both Boing and Lockheed are quite desperate to keep the F-16 and F-18 production lines open and they've been pitching those planes to India including local production, which is extremely unlikely, so they really need a new customer right away.

The F-18 and the Growler is what the US Navy has to deal with the chinese navy, chinese air defense, the chinese Sukhois, etc, etc, so it makes sense that they've been fined tuned to deal with the same threat that Vietnam faces and they actually depend on the Growler to clear the way for the F-18 and the F-35 to penetrate chinese defenses, otherwise those two would be in trouble, particularly if facing the SU-35, so in my view, the Growler is the key.

The only other realistic alternative for a naval strike aircraft that can be purchase in large number (+24) is the MiG-29/35. But they don’t have very strong ECM. Su-34 is great for the role but the operating cost would be too high if procure +24 and they don’t have much commonality with the existing Su-30MK2 so there is really no advantage in terms of logistics support.

For @BoQ77
Denmark government’s evaluation report for F-35 vs EF-2000 vs F/A-18. Suprisingly F-35 cost less than both the other two.

http://www.fmn.dk/eng/allabout/new-fighter/Pages/new-fighter.aspx

but note that Boeing have rejected the Danish evaluation and said that the figure for the F/A-18 was over-estimated by 50%-100%.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Defence

Manohar Parrikar to take along defence industry delegation to Vietnam with aim to boost military relations
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | 28 May, 2016, 02:26 hrs IST

US President Barak Obama's visit to Vietnam , India is sending a high-level defence industry delegation to the strategically-located neighbour of China .

The industry delegation — representing most major Indian arms companies — will accompany defence minister Manohar Parrikar to Vietnam early next month.

The visit comes even as India is looking at increasing its military engagement with the nation to counter an increasing Chinese footprint in the Indian Ocean that is supported by the People's Liberation Army's naval base at Hainan island, located adjacent to Vietnam.

Officials have told et that the defence ministry is in the process of selecting the industry delegation that will look at joint development and production orders from Vietnam that already has a commonality of military platforms with India, most of them of Russian origin, including submarines and frigates.

India has identified Vietnam as a nation to which arms exports can be made freely, even for cutting-edge systems like warship destroying Brahmos missile. This comes as Chinese arms companies increase their presence in India's immediate neighbourhood, including sales of submarines to Pakistan and military systems to Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. While the official delegation is being firmed up, it could include upwards of 15 private sector representatives, including executives from L&T, Tata and Reliance Defence, besides participation of public sector units like Brahmos. The final selection is to be made by Parrikar who will also be visiting Singapore for the Shangri La dialogue as part of his overseas tour.

Defence analysts say that there is a case for increased exports to Vietnam that would boost the Indian industry. "The MoD is finally using defence sales as an instrument of regional diplomacy with the proposed export of four naval patrol vessels from GRSE (Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers) to Vietnam.

The Brahmos could present itself as another viable export product. Such cases when approved will bolster the business cases under the Make in India campaign," Ankur Gupta of EY India told ET. India's defence exports remain minuscule but have shot up exponentially over the past two years.

This has been spurred by the policy changes that makes it easier to export military stores and equipment and doing away with a provision that demanded multiple assurances by foreign governments even for the sale of components and parts by Indian entities. India also has a defence export strategy that looks at diplomacy as a major tool for exports, including the granting of line of credit to friendly foreign nations for purchase of military equipment.

Hi, I do think something will come out of this. Now, I dont necessary mean something major, but maybe small subsystem type deals, etc.

 

[BoQ77]

The only other realistic alternative for a naval strike aircraft that can be purchase in large number (+24) is the MiG-29/35. But they don’t have very strong ECM. Su-34 is great for the role but the operating cost would be too high if procure +24 and they don’t have much commonality with the existing Su-30MK2 so there is really no advantage in terms of logistics support.

For @BoQ77
Denmark government’s evaluation report for F-35 vs EF-2000 vs F/A-18. Suprisingly F-35 cost less than both the other two.

http://www.fmn.dk/eng/allabout/new-fighter/Pages/new-fighter.aspx

but note that Boeing have rejected the Danish evaluation and said that the figure for the F/A-18 was over-estimated by 50%-100%.

I like secondhand F-18 for now and at least next 10 years, but not F-35 now based on below :
- US wanna replace F-18 by time
- Second hand F-18 would be very cheap ( 20-25 mil ? ) but suitable to naval fighter/attack role.
- F-18 could be armed by nearly all weapons that at this moment F-35 could only dream for: B-61, JDAM, AIM-120D ... JSOW , SLAM-ER ...
So expect with deal signed, training time, 2018-2019 would be the earliest for the first deployed in Vietnam Naval Air force.
---------------
Not F-35 because:
- US is still busy to produce F35 for themselves and not ready to sell to Vietnam
- F-35 would be still expensive until 2023-2025 ( currently more than 100 mil ), after that expect price could be 70-75 mil.
- F-35 is incomplete now and next few years,

 

[Carlosa]

The only other realistic alternative for a naval strike aircraft that can be purchase in large number (+24) is the MiG-29/35. But they don’t have very strong ECM. Su-34 is great for the role but the operating cost would be too high if procure +24 and they don’t have much commonality with the existing Su-30MK2 so there is really no advantage in terms of logistics support.

For @BoQ77
Denmark government’s evaluation report for F-35 vs EF-2000 vs F/A-18. Suprisingly F-35 cost less than both the other two.

http://www.fmn.dk/eng/allabout/new-fighter/Pages/new-fighter.aspx

but note that Boeing have rejected the Danish evaluation and said that the figure for the F/A-18 was over-estimated by 50%-100%.

I've already seen several reports that say that Denmark made a political decision about the F-35, nobody believes it, they sugar coated everything about the F-35 to make it look better. Everybody and their dog knows that the F-35 is very expensive to operate and it has a lot of maintenance issues. How can Denmark say how expensive it is to operate before they actually start to operate the aircraft and when the aircraft is not going to actually be ready until 2019 (at least).

I've been reading about the SU-34 and the Growler last night and I've found a recent article that says that the SU-34 its going to be made into a full ECM aircraft with the addition of some new ECM pods to be added to the fuselage of the aircraft. At the moment, the SU-34 uses the Khibiny-10V ECM system in pods mounted in the wing tips, but the Khibiny-10V is just for self protection while the new system will make it into a Growler equivalent. Considering that this is a new system and the Russians are ahead of the Americans when it comes to ECM (as was admitted by the NATO chief and others), I'd say that the SU-34 has the advantage over the Growler. Russia is also working on an upgrade for the SU-30.

Reading about the Growler, I see that its ECM system is a bit dated now and its considered to not be effective against emerging threats. The Americans are going to develop a new system. The current system also has a high failure rate.

So, I feel the SU-34 has the advantage and it also has partial commonality with the SU-34 as well as using the same missiles, etc. The Russians buy it very cheap, but I don't know what the export price will be. VV has some leverage now since it has options. Still, the big issue is that the Russians can also sell it to the chinese.

I like secondhand F-18 for now and at least next 10 years, but not F-35 now based on below :
- US wanna replace F-18 by time
- Second hand F-18 would be very cheap ( 20-25 mil ? ) but suitable to naval fighter/attack role.
- F-18 could be armed by nearly all weapons that at this moment F-35 could only dream for: B-61, JDAM, AIM-120D ... JSOW , SLAM-ER ...
So expect with deal signed, training time, 2018-2019 would be the earliest for the first deployed in Vietnam Naval Air force.
---------------
Not F-35 because:
- US is still busy to produce F35 for themselves and not ready to sell to Vietnam
- F-35 would be still expensive until 2023-2025 ( currently more than 100 mil ), after that expect price could be 70-75 mil.
- F-35 is incomplete now and next few years,

When you say a second hand F-18, you mean about the super Hornet or the original Hornet?

 

[Viet]

Hi, I do think something will come out of this. Now, I dont necessary mean something major, but maybe small subsystem type deals, etc.

Hope so. You have a sophisticated military industrial complex, assembling submarines such as the Scorpene. Would be a dream comes true if we could do the same. anyway Welcome to the Cam Ranh bay.

 

[Carlosa]

F/A 18 C/D my friend

That sounds good. It brings new capabilities.

I think VN needs to be cautious about going too far and too fast regarding the F-18, I don't think USA will sell a full version of the Growler. A watered down version might not be worth it to have.

The F-16 as per the Indonesian deal is very worth it. P-3C is worth it, S-3 should be ok.

Step by step. I think VN should also buy some SU-35 and SU-34 and keep a foot on each side. Better safe than sorry.

I like secondhand F-18 for now and at least next 10 years, but not F-35 now based on below :
- US wanna replace F-18 by time
- Second hand F-18 would be very cheap ( 20-25 mil ? ) but suitable to naval fighter/attack role.
- F-18 could be armed by nearly all weapons that at this moment F-35 could only dream for: B-61, JDAM, AIM-120D ... JSOW , SLAM-ER ...
So expect with deal signed, training time, 2018-2019 would be the earliest for the first deployed in Vietnam Naval Air force.
---------------
Not F-35 because:
- US is still busy to produce F35 for themselves and not ready to sell to Vietnam
- F-35 would be still expensive until 2023-2025 ( currently more than 100 mil ), after that expect price could be 70-75 mil.
- F-35 is incomplete now and next few years,

Second hand F-16s and F-18s armed with Meteor would be a deal changer in the SCS.

 

[Viet]

That sounds good. It brings new capabilities.

I think VN needs to be cautious about going too far and too fast regarding the F-18, I don't think USA will sell a full version of the Growler. A watered down version might not be worth it to have.

The F-16 as per the Indonesian deal is very worth it. P-3C is worth it, S-3 should be ok.

Step by step. I think VN should also buy some SU-35 and SU-34 and keep a foot on each side. Better safe than sorry.



Second hand F-16s and F-18s armed with Meteor would be a deal changer in the SCS.

if people ask me, I would favor F-18 over F-16 as Strike Fighter. more powerful, twin engines, and most importantly interoperatility with US aircraft carriers cruising in the South China Sea. our jets can land on them

 

[BoQ77]

That sounds good. It brings new capabilities.

I think VN needs to be cautious about going too far and too fast regarding the F-18, I don't think USA will sell a full version of the Growler. A watered down version might not be worth it to have.

The F-16 as per the Indonesian deal is very worth it. P-3C is worth it, S-3 should be ok.

Step by step. I think VN should also buy some SU-35 and SU-34 and keep a foot on each side. Better safe than sorry.



Second hand F-16s and F-18s armed with Meteor would be a deal changer in the SCS.

Some Vietnam said The next would be Su30sm at not expensive price level.

I aim to second hand F18 by all owners , not only US, (Upgrade or weapons from Us), as cheap replacement for Su22 and Mig21 bis as Finnish ever chosen

 

[Indos]

Second hand F-16s and F-18s armed with Meteor would be a deal changer in the SCS.

Indonesian Su 27/30 has tested Australian Super hornet, the radar is more superior than us for BVR dog fight, but rumors said we beat them in WVR. You have already had Su 27/30 so F 16 Block 52 is better to complement it. Our F 16 has also tested their F 18 in Kupang recently

 

[BoQ77]

Indonesian Su 27/30 has tested Australian Super hornet, the radar is more superior than us for BVR dog fight, but rumors said we beat them in WVR. You have already had Su 27/30 so F 16 Block 52 is better to complement it. Our F 16 has also tested their F 18 in Kupang recently

It's interesting to hear from you.
Indonesia has both Su-30 and F-16,
Could you choose one over three on cost / effective ? F-18, F-16, Su-30 ? for naval fighter ?
Should we add some F-16 to our Su-30 fleet, just like you ? or F-18 ( C/D ) altogether ? we had nearly 50 Sukhoi 27 and Su-30 in our inventory, but none of US aircraft at this moment.
How about F-18 E/F ( Super Hornet ) ? based on your test with F-16 IND

 

[Indos]

It's interesting to hear from you.
Indonesia has both Su-30 and F-16,
Could you choose one over three on cost / effective ? F-18, F-16, Su-30 ? for naval fighter ?
Should we add some F-16 to our Su-30 fleet, just like you ? or F-18 ( C/D ) altogether ? we had nearly 50 Sukhoi 27 and Su-30 in our inventory, but none of US aircraft at this moment.
How about F-18 E/F ( Super Hornet ) ? based on your test with F-16 IND

Well, if I were in your position it is better to up grade the radar rather than buying Super hornet as the two is relatively in similar class ( and also F-15). And our dog fight happen long time ago in Pitch Black, Australia. Even Indian Sukhoi also has satisfactory result in England against British fighter.

As you are more close to US ally so it is better for you to ask your participation on the next Pitch Black in which USA will also join to check F 18 performance. Indonesia will participate in the next pitch black according to our member in here, so better watch out, I guest we will come with the latest Su 30 that we have beside Su 27 air superiority fighter.

As we know that F 16 comes after GD beats Boeing F 18 when both two still in prototype. And yes F 18 has more range but it depends on your potential combat zone in SCS, if F 16 can handle the range I bet we must go for F 16 as even it can beat F-35 in WVR in USA. F 16 is also cheaper to operate so it can be more efficient to patroling the SCS.

Actually our F 16 has many experience having joint practice with Australian F 18 but we dont have much information about the result of the training. Every year we have joint training with them. But I guess more information about F-16 vs F18 E/F can be obtained from US.

 

[Viet]

I believe, since we have improved relationship to America, many people now think we have become a great power



Will India and Vietnam join USA's efforts to weaken BRICS?
30.05.2016

The US views Russia and China as its prime enemies. To struggle against Russia and China, the Americans try to win India, Vietnam and other countries over to their side.


Can the US break or at least weaken the BRICS?

Pravda.Ru conducted an interview on the subject with Professor of the Department of Oriental Studies at MGIMO Sergey Lunev and Chief Scientific Officer at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations, Alexander Salitsky.

"Recently, US lawmakers have approved the defense bill, according to which India has acquired the status of a NATO ally. Moreover, similarly to the practice with Israel, the USA undertakes to defend India regardless of the wish of the president. Why has Nareandra Modi decided to violate the status of non-alignment?"

Sergey Lunev: "Because he has not violated the status of non-alignment. The media hype about India becoming a military partner of the United States is biased and unfounded. India has been making steps towards both the USA and Russia, but I do not see any violation of India's status here. Plus, India develops ties wit China."

Alexander Salitsky: "We should not make hasty statements, because the Indian foreign policy stipulates for conditions to limit the pro-bloc strategy. For the time being, nothing is clear yet."


US and Vietnam against China

"US President Barack Obama stated during his visit to Vietnam that the US government decided to lift the embargo on the supplies of lethal weapons to Vietnam. Are Chinese communists not dangerous for Washington anymore?"

SL: "They did not seem particularly dangerous in recent years. The psychological perception of Vietnam in the United States has played its role here. After all, the Americans were defeated in the Vietnam War. America's main competitor is China, and Vietnam does not want China to grow stronger. This is where Vietnam and the USA can cooperate. At the same time, India and Vietnam develop active cooperation with Russia as well, and this cooperation is much deeper than the cooperation with the USA."

AS: "The United States tends to whip up tensions in the South China Sea. America's intention to sow seeds of conflict between the countries of the region, including between China and Vietnam, is pretty obvious. Russian officials said that such issues should be regulated only by the countries of the region."


Attack on the BRICS

"Is the USA trying to weaken the BRICS? Brazil has tried to impeach President Dilma Rousseff under the conditions of doubtful legitimacy. In South Africa, unrest is brewing against Jacob Zuma. Vietnam and India become America's partners."

SL: "This partnership can only be possible to a certain extent. In the Asia-Pacific region, the main goal of the United States is to encircle China with its influence. I strongly doubt that Vietnam and India will develop serious military and political cooperation with the United States. India will not join the plans of the United States against China.

"BRICS is, of course, a thorn in the side for the entire West. This association unites all major non-Western countries. They are dissatisfied with the monopoly position of the West in the world's political and especially economic system. Therefore, the United States plans to take measures to limit the capacity of the BRICS. The strategic triangle of Russia-India-China is most important inside the BRICS. The three countries share common goals and objectives on global issues.

AS: "The BRICS and other collective formats created by the countries of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization are to a large extent focused on dealing with regional issues together, but at the same time independently. The point of the SCO is to contain the influence of the unipolar world."


How should Russia respond?

"What conclusions should Russia make?"

SL: "Russia has been wary about the development of the US military and political ties with India and Vietnam. They are very important partners for Russia. Yet, despite all pessimistic estimates, India remains the main buyer of Russian weapons. However, Russia's share in arms sales to India may decrease if the US removes all barriers for the procurement of weapons.

"The same is with Vietnam. This month, the Vietnamese ambassador to Russia suggested Russia should go back to Cam Ranh. Russia uses Cam Ranh as a filling station for warships and bombers. The Americans wanted Vietnam to close the base last year, but the Vietnamese refused to do it.

"America's military, political and economic cooperation with the countries of the Asian-Pacific region will continue to develop. However, it does not mean that these countries will become USA's full-fledged partners. Russia should simply continue working with India, Vietnam and other countries."

AS: "Russia has already become a counterweight to the unipolar world and the domination of the United States. America shamelessly interferes in internal affairs of sovereign states, and the later find Russia's anti-American posture appealing."


Read article on the Russian version of Pravda.Ru

- See more at: http://www.pravdareport.com/world/asia/30-05-2016/134572-brics_usa-0/#sthash.ZXYVcrQA.dpuf

 

[Carlosa]

Well, if I were in your position it is better to up grade the radar rather than buying Super hornet as the two is relatively in similar class ( and also F-15). And our dog fight happen long time ago in Pitch Black, Australia. Even Indian Sukhoi also has satisfactory result in England against British fighter.

As you are more close to US ally so it is better for you to ask your participation on the next Pitch Black in which USA will also join to check F 18 performance. Indonesia will participate in the next pitch black according to our member in here, so better watch out, I guest we will come with the latest Su 30 that we have beside Su 27 air superiority fighter.

As we know that F 16 comes after GD beats Boeing F 18 when both two still in prototype. And yes F 18 has more range but it depends on your potential combat zone in SCS, if F 16 can handle the range I bet we must go for F 16 as even it can beat F-35 in WVR in USA. F 16 is also cheaper to operate so it can be more efficient to patroling the SCS.

Actually our F 16 has many experience having joint practice with Australian F 18 but we dont have much information about the result of the training. Every year we have joint training with them. But I guess more information about F-16 vs F18 E/F can be obtained from US.

Good info man, thank you. How about between F-16 Block 52 vs SU-30?

It's interesting to hear from you.
Indonesia has both Su-30 and F-16,
Could you choose one over three on cost / effective ? F-18, F-16, Su-30 ? for naval fighter ?
Should we add some F-16 to our Su-30 fleet, just like you ? or F-18 ( C/D ) altogether ? we had nearly 50 Sukhoi 27 and Su-30 in our inventory, but none of US aircraft at this moment.
How about F-18 E/F ( Super Hornet ) ? based on your test with F-16 IND

F-18 C/D is a bit limited when it comes to range. The super hornet has 30% more range. That's a consideration when it comes to use it in the SCS.

 

[Indos]

Good info man, thank you. How about between F-16 Block 52 vs SU-30?

Well I think the data is classified, F-16 block 52 is more agile and the engine is also quite powerful. I dont know much when those fighter jam to each other either. As you know, each fighter has its own strength and weakness, it should be you who analyse that based on your specific needs.

 

[BoQ77]

Good info man, thank you. How about between F-16 Block 52 vs SU-30?



F-18 C/D is a bit limited when it comes to range. The super hornet has 30% more range. That's a consideration when it comes to use it in the SCS.

Let imagine you have to replace entire of Su22 fleet by 36 or more of other naval fighters, which is your choice? 20 million or 60 million unit price or F16? you have the answer.

F18 to me, harden design with ocean situation, more suitable to replace Su22 for naval operation.
F16 will replace for Mig 21 as interceptor.

I imagine the training camp would be opened in Phan rang airbase, for mass training of F16 and F18 pilots in 2018.
After that, we expect 36 second hand F18 and 48 F16 to be delivered starting in 2019.

F18 range isnt enough for CBG to dominate mainland but enough to handle some isolated features which are under 300nm from Vietnam Coast.