Vietnam Defence Forum

[William Hung]

I mean that only those 3 countries have capable submarine fleets. Aren't nuke sub are strategic weapons that no one in their right mind will sell? Ukraine sold China an aircraft carrier because it was too costly for them to maintain, and they didn't have any potential conflict with China.

EU weapons are good, maybe even superior than US. But they are costly. Look at Leopard 2 or Challanger tanks. They are indestructable, but cost as much as 2-3 times a US tank, 4-5 times a Russian tank. VN prefer Russian weapon for lower price, lower maintainance cost and higher durability.

Well Russia leased a nuke sub to India, but not many country has the money and resource to operate them anyway.

Nah for diesel sub, the French and German ones are better than the Kilo. The scorpene and type214 are only a little more expensive but has better specs with AIP. It has longer submerged range, longer endurance, yet more compact, more automation requiring less crew. And I suspect more quiet.

The Kilo is outdated. Only the Russian Lada/Amur can be compared to the Scorpene and type 214.

 

[Carlosa]

No , i'm not from California, Texas, or New York. I'm from Michigan. Just a normal Vietnamese American citizen. My Parent's moved to US back in 1990 because of... the Communist Government. But besides that I want to support my former homeland in the Vietnam-China tensions over Territorial Sovereignty. Btw Do you guys think that it's a disadvantage for Vietnam to mainly get it's Military Technologies and weapons from Russia? I mean China also has them too, but in massively greater numbers. Like for example Su30.

Hola amigo, welcome to the forum.

Russia is a good choice for many weapon systems since they have the right stuff at the right price, but not for everything. VN is diversifying its sources and that's the right way to go. Israel is becoming an important supplier and also western Europe. Need to buy from whoever has the right stuff. USA will lift the embargo soon and they will become a new supplier for VN also. VN is going in the right direction. Its never good to depend too much from one source. Some of the equipment that VN buys from Russia might have some issues now because of parts made in Ukraine that now are difficult for Russia to get.

 

[Viet]

Professor Carl Thayer (Australia), a very good informed person on Vietnam affairs reveals in one of his blog responses (I forgot the site) that John McCain was given a "arms wish list" during his recent visit to Vietnam.

 

[Carlosa]

Well Russia leased a nuke sub to India, but not many country has the money and resource to operate them anyway.

Nah for diesel sub, the French and German ones are better than the Kilo. The scorpene and type214 are only a little more expensive but has better specs with AIP. It has longer submerged range, longer endurance, yet more compact, more automation requiring less crew. And I suspect more quiet.

The Kilo is outdated. Only the Russian Lada/Amur can be compared to the Scorpene and type 214.

I suggest you research about all the problems that Russia have / had developing the Lada / Amur. Why do you think they canceled the class after building just one?

Care to explain in detail what makes the French and German subs better than the Kilo? I'm not aware that they are more silent than the Kilo and that is the primary feature in a submarine and by the way, they are not a little bit more expensive than the kilo, they are a lot more expensive than a Kilo and that makes a big difference.

By the way, the Kilo that VN is getting is not the original design, its an upgraded Kilo, that's why is called the improved Kilo.

Are you aware of all the problems that Greece and Turkey had with the German type 214?

Are you aware that when a sub runs on AIP it can only navigate at a speed of 2-4 knots which would be an issue during combat? AIP is not the big thing that is often made up to be.

Professor Carl Thayer (Australia), a very good informed person on Vietnam affairs reveals in one of his blog responses (I forgot the site) that John McCain was given a "arms wish list" during his recent visit to Vietnam.

Ha ha, I also read that, I wish I could get my hands on that list.

 

[Viet]

Well Russia leased a nuke sub to India, but not many country has the money and resource to operate them anyway.

Nah for diesel sub, the French and German ones are better than the Kilo. The scorpene and type214 are only a little more expensive but has better specs with AIP. It has longer submerged range, longer endurance, yet more compact, more automation requiring less crew. And I suspect more quiet.

The Kilo is outdated. Only the Russian Lada/Amur can be compared to the Scorpene and type 214.

German made subs are very expensive. for example, the Dolphin class (diesel-electric) costs $1 billion a piece. Israel Navy operates Dolphin 2 version that can fire long range nuclear missiles, believed to have a range of 1,500 km.

conventional French subs are cheaper than german ones, but they still cost more than Kilos. by the way I believe the Kilos are better than the Scorpene.

 

[xesy]

What's your source regarding VN planning to replace the migs with the typhoon jet? I never heard anything in that direction and frankly, I very much doubt it, the typhoon is very expensive and still not as good as the SU-35 which is what I understand that VN is planning to get.

Regarding diesel subs, you forget South Korea. Indonesia is buying subs from them and also producing them under license. Those subs are a modified, enlarge version of the German type 209. The south koreans are also working on other, bigger designs.

Just things I grab from VN news and forum. The MIGs which will be replaced are the old MIG 17 and 21, which are ways out of date. VN searches for a new short range interceptor, and the EU fighters looks promising compare to MIG 27. Of course for fighter/bomber, VN sticks to Russian Su-series.

 

[NiceGuy]

Well Russia leased a nuke sub to India, but not many country has the money and resource to operate them anyway.

Nah for diesel sub, the French and German ones are better than the Kilo. The scorpene and type214 are only a little more expensive but has better specs with AIP. It has longer submerged range, longer endurance, yet more compact, more automation requiring less crew. And I suspect more quiet.

The Kilo is outdated. Only the Russian Lada/Amur can be compared to the Scorpene and type 214.

VN Kilos have ground-attack missile (Russia design this version for VN only) , thats the reason why we buy it. Do French and German ones have ground-attack missile for exporting version ??

 

[William Hung]

Care to explain in detail what makes the French and German subs better than the Kilo? I'm not aware that they are more silent than the Kilo and that is the primary feature in a submarine and by the way, they are not a little bit more expensive than the kilo, they are a lot more expensive than a Kilo and that makes a big difference.

By the way, the Kilo that VN is getting is not the original design, its an upgraded Kilo, that's why is called the improved Kilo.

Are you aware of all the problems that Greece and Turkey had with the German type 214?

Are you aware that when a sub runs on AIP it can only navigate at a speed of 2-4 knots which would be an issue during combat? AIP is not the big thing that is often made up to be.

I already gave the list in which the Scorp/214 has better specs than the kilo. Longer submerged range, diving depth, endurance, etc. All in a more compact Hull requiring less crew. These specs list are all readily available on the net. You cannot deny them.

I said I "suspect" they are more silent than the kilo. Yes both you and I will not know for sure since neither of us know their acoustic signature. I based my speculation on report articles that I've read such as one on the hull structure analysis between type214 and kilo. I can send it to you when I dig it up. Some of these are third party analysis, but probably not entirely rubbish. Lastly, the fact that they can run on AIP would likely mean that they are more silent (in AIP mode) than the Kilo.

Which brings me to the last point. Submarine warfare is not a aerial dogfight between two propeller plane where speed and manoeuvrability is king. It is a much much more complex warfare with different strategies in which one strategy might be just sitting in ambush (I based this on fiction like Tom Clancy and non-fiction article and accounts like Larry Bond ) so saying AIP is not a big thing just because it only propel between 2-4knot is naive. The fact that running on AIP is silent and allows the sub to stay submerged longer cannot be denied. If it gives not advantage in sub warfare then ask all the navies why they bother buying it.

 

[Nike]

Just things I grab from VN news and forum. The MIGs which will be replaced are the old MIG 17 and 21, which are ways out of date. VN searches for a new short range interceptor, and the EU fighters looks promising compare to MIG 27. Of course for fighter/bomber, VN sticks to Russian Su-series.

err why you not stick with Russian made fighter?

 

[William Hung]

VN Kilos have ground-attack missile (Russia design this version for VN only) , thats the reason why we buy it. Do French and German ones have ground-attack missile for exporting version ??

Yes, the French scorpene has option to install VLS for land attack missile.

 

[Carlosa]

Just things I grab from VN news and forum. The MIGs which will be replaced are the old MIG 17 and 21, which are ways out of date. VN searches for a new short range interceptor, and the EU fighters looks promising compare to MIG 27. Of course for fighter/bomber, VN sticks to Russian Su-series.

The possibility of the typhoon replacing Mig 21's is almost next to impossible, not only because of cost which is already enough of a reason, but also because they are totally different types of planes. VN needs to replace the Mig 21 with a single engine, light plane, the typhoon is a dual engine, heavier plane and at a price of way more than $100 million a piece, plus the extra logistical expenses of having to use western missiles and equipment for it, it just makes no sense.

If there is a European plane that can replace the Mig 21 that would be the Grippen which is also a single engine, light jet even that it cost about the same as a SU-30, but at least is cheap to operate and maintain.

Other choices would be the F-16 or the Tejas MK2 from India. If those options can't be made to workout, then it has to be replaced with heavier, dual engines jets (which are a lot more expensive to operate) like the SU-30 / 35 or the Mig 35 which I think it would be a good alternative.

There is no Mig 17 in operation in VN by the way, and VN never operated the Mig 27.

 

[Carlosa]

German made subs are very expensive. for example, the Dolphin class (diesel-electric) costs $1 billion a piece. Israel Navy operates Dolphin 2 version that can fire long range nuclear missiles, believed to have a range of 1,500 km.

conventional French subs are cheaper than german ones, but they still cost more than Kilos. by the way I believe the Kilos are better than the Scorpene.

Totally correct, the cheapest European subs would cost at least $500 million compared to the $300 million of a Kilo and the Kilo is actually more silent than both of those.

VN took the best choice available for diesel subs. And by the way, any of those designs, including the Kilo can have the option of a VLS if the customer wants, they would just stretch the sub to mount some VLS tubes, no big deal. The Kilos can fire the Club missiles from the torpedo tubes which is already good enough.

 

[William Hung]

@Carlosa


You can search for academic journal articles on engineering, military tech, warfare history.

The articles I've mentioned were searched from my university online database. When I find the ones I talk about, you probably can find it here too, but not always. You can start searching for submarine articles now.

Copy the link now, cause I will have to delete b

 

[Carlosa]

@Carlosa
Copy this link..


You can search for academic journal articles on engineering, military tech, warfare history.

The articles I've mentioned were searched from my university online database. When I find the ones I talk about, you probably can find it here too, but not always. You can start searching for submarine articles now.

Copy the link now, cause I will have to delete because it has p!rated books and article.

Ok, thank you for the link. I'll research into it.

By the way, what makes the Kilos very silent are those rubber modules that they are covered with.
They are very good at absorbing noise and sonar waves.

If we are going to talk about high tech for subs, lithion ion batteries and actually a fuel cell would be the thing to go for, particularly the fuel cell, that is better than AIP. Japan, South Korea and Germany are working on fuel cells for subs.

I would not doubt that German and French subs have better specs in many areas and other benefits such as an smaller crews due to better automation, etc, but have to consider how much of a difference that actually makes; from my perspective, the big thing for a sub is to be as silent and undetectable as possible, and the Kilos have been proven to be very good at that, and they are the cheapest at the same time, so that's a mighty combination.

 

[William Hung]

Ok, thank you for the link. I'll research into it.

By the way, what makes the Kilos very silent are those rubber modules that they are covered with.
They are very good at absorbing noise and sonar waves.

If we are going to talk about high tech for subs, lithion ion batteries and actually a fuel cell would be the thing to go for, particularly the fuel cell, that is better than AIP.

I would not doubt that German and French subs have better specs in many areas and other benefits such as an smaller crews due to better automation, etc, but have to consider how much of a difference that actually makes; from my perspective, the big thing for a sub is to be as silent and undetectable as possible, and the Kilos have been proven to be very good at that, and they are the cheapest at the same time, so that's a mighty combination.

B@stard don't quote my link!! I can get in trouble for linking p! rate materials. Just edit it out. Btw, the articles and books from there are academic stuff and not amateur internet analysts. You might even find articles on the batteries too.

I don't agree that kilo is more silent. we both can't know for sure but most analysis and articles I've read say it's the 214. There are other factors too such as propulsion system. It's not far fetched to think 214 is better since the they are newer generation and the Germans are not new to this sub game.

I don't have time to debate now gotta get back to working on my real stuff. I'll get back when I have time to find the exact articles and books.