Vietnam building deterrent against China in disputed seas with submarines

[Viet]

We will destroy you if you sink our ship.

I suggest you ease the aggression and return to the negotiating table.

Viet people will never know why their govt buys older Kilos rather than newer Euro platforms like U214 or Scorpene. There were no public tenders and the deals were done secretly behind doors. The Viet tax payers don't even have any idea or clue how their money were spent on these Kilos. The VCP/VPA defenders here (NiceGuy, Carlosa) live in the delusion that it's because Kilos are cheaper but they don't even know what the real cost is.

Different figures have appeared in the media for these Kilos from 1.8billion to over 3billion. The truth is they don't know exactly how much they cost since rosoboronexport is state owned so don't have to reveal to the public real transaction value. It is well known that Viet state agency love to take bribes (latest example being bribe taken from Japanese ODA). My bet why Kilo was chosen is that it's easier for Viet officials to demand bribe from the Russian state owned Rosoboronexport than their EU counterpart. Some EU company offer bribes too but they are usually exposed easily.

you speculate too much. but you may be right, the real cost is pretty much higher than the official figure. we not only buy the subs, but weapons, spare parts, guidance systems for missiles, sub simulator, staff training, marine school, building a submarine base, and all other expensive technical infrastructure required for operating subs in the south china sea. it is a very complex issue.

don´t forget, uncle Sam still imposes arms embargo on Vietnam. they can force their allies and partners to stop weapons deals. So opting for Scorpene is not a real option. if bribe was involved or not, I don´t know, but the law of VN requires the approval of parliament for such expenditure.

 

[xunzi]

I suggest you ease the aggression and return to the negotiating table.

It's not aggression. It is about defending our principle.

 

[Rechoice]

It's not aggression. It is about defending our principle.

idiot aggressor has big mouth.

 

[William Hung]

you speculate too much. but you may be right, the real cost is pretty much higher than the official figure. we not only buy the subs, but weapons, spare parts, guidance systems for missiles, sub simulator, staff training, marine school, building a submarine base, and all other expensive technical infrastructure required for operating subs in the south china sea. it is a very complex issue.

don´t forget, uncle Sam still imposes arms embargo on Vietnam. they can force their allies and partners to stop weapons deals. So opting for Scorpene is not a real option. if bribe was involved or not, I don´t know, but the law of VN requires the approval of parliament for such expenditure.

I know that a Kilo is cheaper than their euro counterparts (excluding U209). The Algerian bought their Kilo cheaper than any U214 or Scorpenes. But, you guys still don't, and probably never will, know how much your Kilos was purchased for.

It is a fact that some of your officials take bribes. Whether they were bribed with the Kilo deal, I don't know.

Needing approval from parliament doesn't mean much. Remember, your officials were able to take bribe from Japanese ODA contractors. And you guys only found out about it from Japanese media and investigation. It will be much easier to bribe from Russian state owned Rosoboronexport. Both them and your official can make up any numbers any way they want.

 

[William Hung]

idiot aggressor has big mouth.

Talking about sinking ship and sub is only for fun. The truth is, if fire breaks out between VN and China, I'm not sure if you even have a chance to use your Ships and Subs.

China can easily do surgical strikes against all your military ports, including your sub Base. They have the capability to reach all your ports from their land based missiles. They can mass produce these missile if needed, so I don't think your air defence can cope with their saturated missile strikes.

The best you could do is make a pre-emptive strike against some of their ports and ships and damage a few, but in return, all your bases, airfields, and coastal ports will be annihilated. Your Ships and Subs will be homeless, if they weren't destroyed at their ports already. You then won't even have the means to harass the SCS trade route that niceguy always dreamed about.

 

[Viet]

I know that a Kilo is cheaper than their euro counterparts (excluding U209). The Algerian bought their Kilo cheaper than any U214 or Scorpenes. But, you guys still don't, and probably never will, know how much your Kilos was purchased for.

It is a fact that some of your officials take bribes. Whether they were bribed with the Kilo deal, I don't know.

Needing approval from parliament doesn't mean much. Remember, your officials were able to take bribe from Japanese ODA contractors. And you guys only found out about it from Japanese media and investigation. It will be much easier to bribe from Russian state owned Rosoboronexport. Both them and your official can make up any numbers any way they want.

we can agree on both you and me don´t know how much we pay for the kilo. maybe we get them for free

no, if the parliament is involved it is impossible to hide anything. you remember, the parliament refused the proposed super expensive highspeed train shinkansen of Japan some years ago.

note, the bribe case you mentioned involved just some few people including the japanese bribe giver.
yes, who gives the bribe? a japanese! from Japan, a country being famous for without corruption. obviously not.

 

[Viet]

Talking about sinking ship and sub is only for fun. The truth is, if fire breaks out between VN and China, I'm not sure if you even have a chance to use your Ships and Subs.

China can easily do surgical strikes against all your military ports, including your sub Base. They have the capability to reach all your ports from their land based missiles. They can mass produce these missile if needed, so I don't think your air defence can cope with their saturated missile strikes.

The best you could do is make a pre-emptive strike against some of their ports and ships and damage a few, but in return, all your bases, airfields, and coastal ports will be annihilated. Your Ships and Subs will be homeless, if they weren't destroyed at their ports already. You then won't even have the means to harass the SCS trade route that niceguy always dreamed about.

hm...VN has one of most dense air defence networks in the world. we have deployed s-300 missile shield, and soon s-400. I remember the US armed forces said they could win the war in Vietnam with ease. maybe it is a lesson for you?
don´t make the mistake to assume we will sit idle. if you start missiles against our cities, we will do the same against yours.

S-300: NATO’s nightmare and perhaps Russia’s too | Russia & India Report

 

[William Hung]

we can agree on both you and me don´t know how much we pay for the kilo. maybe we get them for free

no, if the parliament is involved it is impossible to hide anything. you remember, the parliament refused the proposed super expensive highspeed train shinkansen of Japan some years ago.

note, the bribe case you mentioned involved just some few people including the japanese bribe giver.
yes, who gives the bribe? a japanese! from Japan, a country being famous for without corruption. obviously not.

ODA involves govt to govt transaction (mediated by contractors and local government). This is pretty much the same case with your submarine deal. Both rosoboronexport and your purchasing officers are under their respective government. And they can make up any numbers and transaction value they want. Parliament won't know, taxpayers won't know. This is how bribes can be kept a secret.

If Japanese companies were willing to bribe your officials, then why not a state owned Russian company?

The only difference is it is much easier for Japanese Government and investigators to find out because their companies and govt deal are more transparent with independent auditors. Same with euro company. They can, and do, offer bribes but they will get exposed more easier. But deals like those between rosoboronexport and VN govt is much more hush hush.

 

[William Hung]

hm...VN has one of most dense air defence networks in the world. we have deployed s-300 missile shield, and soon s-400. I remember the US armed forces said they could win the war in Vietnam with ease. maybe it is a lesson for you?
don´t make the mistake to assume we will sit idle. if you start missiles against our cities, we will do the same against yours.

S-300: NATO’s nightmare and perhaps Russia’s too | Russia & India Report

I'm always amused by how you guys always bring up the past to project how you can defend yourself in the future. It doesn't work that way. The US had different objectives operating in different contexts.

They never had any intention to declare a full out war against north VN. Their Christmas bombings (Operation Linebacker part 1 & 2) bought you guys to your knees and forced you to the negotiation table. Maybe @gambit can confirm this.

Yes, your "Dien Bien Phu in the air" victory is a propaganda. The bombings f#ck you up big time.

Your infrastructures was destroyed. The only way you managed to recover from it is to break your agreement that you had with them after Linebacker 2. Then you had resupplied and rebuilding assistance from Russia and PRC. This will not be the case again. Rebuilding airfields and getting Migs and SAM replacement from Soviet daddy was not so hard during the cold war. But getting Frigates, Kilos, Su-30s, S300s replaced within a short amount of time will not be easy, if possible at all. Russia ain't gona give you all those freebies.

 

[Viet]

It's not aggression. It is about defending our principle.

what principle? one of a hooligan? obviously.
I understand you don´t want to negotiate.

ODA involves govt to govt transaction (mediated by contractors and local government). This is pretty much the same case with your submarine deal. Both rosoboronexport and your purchasing officers are under their respective government. And they can make up any numbers and transaction value they want. Parliament won't know, taxpayers won't know. This is how bribes can be kept a secret.

If Japanese companies were willing to bribe your officials, then why not a state owned Russian company?

The only difference is it is much easier for Japanese Government and investigators to find out because their companies and govt deal are more transparent with independent auditors. Same with euro company. They can, and do, offer bribes but they will get exposed more easier. But deals like those between rosoboronexport and VN govt is much more hush hush.

you can´t compare the two cases. the ODA bribe case involved some dozen millions, while the kilo contract about $3b.

No, I already told you, the parliament must give approval for such huge expenditure. if I can remember the threshold is $500m. if one wants to bribe, the person must pay bribe for all the deputies. Do you think it can work?

 

[William Hung]

what principle? one of a hooligan? obviously.
I understand you don´t want to negotiate.


you can´t compare the two cases. the ODA bribe case involved some dozen millions, while the kilo contract about $3b.

No, I already told you, the parliament must give approval for such huge expenditure. if I can remember the threshold is $500m. if one wants to bribe, the person must pay bribe for all the deputies. Do you think it can work?

The bigger the deal, the easier it is to hide bribes!

Heh, I just remembered you are a Viet who grew up outside Asia. Either you are naive or pretending to be naive. Give you one very simple bribe situation:

A Viet negotiation team and their purchasing officers meet with the Russian reps. The Russian reps say, behind close doors, "here I'll give you guys a few million."

The Russian take this money from the proposed project by cutting corners in the project and give the savings as bribe to the Viet negotiation team. Or they could inflated the project price a bit to cover the bribe.

The negotiators agree but also agree to some conditions. They must also buy this or buy that. Buy this model, buy that package. This training equipment cost 100milliin but you must agree that it cost 105million and keep quiet. This training package actually only cost 50million but accept that it's 52mil OK? then it all add up but the parliaments won't know how much it should be. The parliaments are only civilians, not military hardware experts.

I know about your Vinashin corruption case. Their corrupt officials was even more greedy with more ridiculous discrepancy with that old dock or lift. And the only reason your investigator found out was Vinashin almost went bankrupted. If that company did not face difficulty, your investigators would probably not know about that corruption case.

 

[Luca1]

hm...VN has one of most dense air defence networks in the world. we have deployed s-300 missile shield, and soon s-400. I remember the US armed forces said they could win the war in Vietnam with ease. maybe it is a lesson for you?
don´t make the mistake to assume we will sit idle. if you start missiles against our cities, we will do the same against yours.

These Kilo subs should be use as a deterrent against Chinese navy in a limited engagement. But Vietnam would be foolish to start a full scale war against China as there is no way for Vietnam to win such a war. There is not enough Vietnamese S-300 to counter the numbers of missile and planes from China. If it comes to China fire all its thousands of missiles and send its planes against Vietnam, there is no way that Vietnam can win.

 

[BoQ77]

Beside S-300, there thousands of SAM.

 

[NiceGuy]

I know that a Kilo is cheaper than their euro counterparts (excluding U209). The Algerian bought their Kilo cheaper than any U214 or Scorpenes. But, you guys still don't, and probably never will, know how much your Kilos was purchased for.

It is a fact that some of your officials take bribes. Whether they were bribed with the Kilo deal, I don't know.

Needing approval from parliament doesn't mean much. Remember, your officials were able to take bribe from Japanese ODA contractors. And you guys only found out about it from Japanese media and investigation. It will be much easier to bribe from Russian state owned Rosoboronexport. Both them and your official can make up any numbers any way they want.

If u have some problem with ur IQ, then go to hospital to fix it, dont show how low IQ u r here, dude.

VN buy Russia weapons such as Kilos, Su-30 on Creadit coz we dont have hard cash to pay, and we will pay Russia by fish, wood, shoes, clothes, milk etc (Russia also need them now due to economy war with US-EU ).

So, if Russia wanna turn our products into money, then they have to sell all of our products to some one else and they seems dont like to do that.

There r some corruption case in ODA coz JP offer a loan to VN, and some bad JPese wanna get that money by winning some ODA projects, so they bribe VN officers. But the arms deal btw VN-Russia dont use money, so , if u think that giving our big bro some more extra fish, shoes, milk is corruption case, then, just keep that idea to make urself happy, who cares ??

If u r so hungry, then come to VN, I will give u some fish for Free, and pls dont say thats my bribe to u , dude

 

[William Hung]

If u have some problem with ur IQ, then go to hospital to fix it, dont show how low IQ u r here, dude.

You can't fix IQ by going to a hospital.

Didn't I say before that I'll give a you a break cos is boring to argue with you? now you still want to talk with me and prove your low IQ? Did your officer instruct you to debate me because I mentioned the VCP?

VN buy Russia weapons such as Kilos, Su-30 on Creadit coz we dont have hard cash to pay, and we will pay Russia by fish, wood, shoes, clothes, milk etc (Russia also need them now due to economy war with US-EU ).

So, if Russia wanna turn our products into money, then they have to sell all of our products to some one else and they seems dont like to do that.

Many western company can offer that too. Like how Thailand paid part of their Jas-39 with chicken.

There r some corruption case in ODA coz JP offer a loan to VN, and some bad JPese wanna get that money by winning some ODA projects, so they bribe VN officers. But the arms deal btw VN-Russia dont use money, so , if u think that giving our big bro some more extra fish, shoes, milk is corruption case, then, just keep that idea to make urself happy, who cares ??

Low IQ indeed. You got it the other way around. It's the Russian who can give your officials some bribe. You think VN is an economic powerhouse already that can pay other country bribe money? lol.

And just because they offer you credit line doesn't mean they can't offer your officials some cash bribe beforehand in order to make your negotiator sign the agreement. They will then just debit on your credit line, which will be part of the agreement signed by your officials.

If u r so hungry, then come to VN, I will give u some fish for Free, and pls dont say thats my bribe to u , dude

I think you need to save the fish. Your govt will need your tax money to compensate those riot victims that your official recently promised.