Video of F-35B Lightening II deck operations on USS Wasp

[godofwar]

We don't, hence we are going over the 6th Gen already, while you lot still working on the 5th

Is that a retraction of the defense of F 35 ? Or is it still a sacred cow ?

You currently have 189 5th gen planes.
Poor(er) countries like China and Russia can afford more in few years.
Heck even India can afford more Pak-Fa than you have F 22.
If F 35 doesn't come soon or isn't able when it comes, you will cede air power to these countries.
F 35 is not even inducted yet and you are talking about replacing it with 6th gen planes in a thread about strengths and weaknesses of JSF.Listen to yourself man!!

What good is all the money spent on F 35, if you simply replace it with 6th gen.If you induct a plane, you keep for atleast 3 decades .I think the money point was also made as a plus of F 35.US should have stuck with the Raptor/Eagle High-low combo till 6th gen came if that were the case.

Mind you, I am debating the point you made here, not the technicalities.

Saying F35's weakness won't matter because we will have 6th gen soon is a lazy argument.

 

[Esc8781]

I hope for your sake that F-35 doesn't turn out to be a mistake of "We don't need a gun, we have BVR missiles" proportions ala Vietnam.

As people said in this very thread, one should never assume anything when it comes to military matters.Don't assume stealth will be enough to save F35 in a future war.

Stealth isn't the only thing that the F-35 has. Situation awareness is one of the most (if not) important thing to have in an aircraft. This will be enough to save the F-35.

 

[500]

I hope for your sake that F-35 doesn't turn out to be a mistake of "We don't need a gun, we have BVR missiles" proportions ala Vietnam.

As people said in this very thread, one should never assume anything when it comes to military matters.Don't assume stealth will be enough to save F35 in a future war.

F-4 did not have a gun because it was intended to be an interceptor, but it was used in Vietnam as fighter-bomber.

 

[jhungary]

Is that a retraction of the defense of F 35 ? Or is it still a sacred cow ?

You currently have 189 5th gen planes.
Poor(er) countries like China and Russia can afford more in few years.
Heck even India can afford more Pak-Fa than you have F 22.
If F 35 doesn't come soon or isn't able when it comes, you will cede air power to these countries.
F 35 is not even inducted yet and you are talking about replacing it with 6th gen planes in a thread about strengths and weaknesses of JSF.Listen to yourself man!!

What good is all the money spent on F 35, if you simply replace it with 6th gen.If you induct a plane, you keep for atleast 3 decades .I think the money point was also made as a plus of F 35.US should have stuck with the Raptor/Eagle High-low combo till 6th gen came if that were the case.

Mind you, I am debating the point you made here, not the technicalities.

Saying F35's weakness won't matter because we will have 6th gen soon is a lazy argument.

dude, make sure your fact is RIGHT before getting into a debate with other.

1st point. F-22 and F-35 is not the same things, even F-22 and PAK-FA or J-20 or J-31 is a total different league of aircraft.

2nd point. J-20, J-31 and PAK-FA is still in Trial phase, how do you know how much the Russian and Chinese can afford?? You have exclusive knowledge of the future?? Even the Chinese and Russian cannot figure out how many squadron they want and they can afford and you are telling me, you know?

3rd Point. India is not getting PAK-FA, they are getting FGFA, not PAK-FA. It is derived by PAK-FA, but please don't expect the performance will be one on one on par with PAK-FA

4th point. We are currently building, and each 30 days we roll out a new F-35 airframe, We are BUILDING F-35 as we speak now, current 75 already build. Not like we stop building F-35 altogether. While China have 4 or 5 J-20 and J-31, Russia have 4 PAK-FA and Indian have 0 FGFA

5th point. We have already INDUCED F-35 into both USAF and USMC service.


6th point. We can make more F-22, the production line is still there, infact we have replaced our crashed F-22, five of them, so the number build is not 189, but 194.

Even though you don't have the fact right, I will still answer your question

Having 6th Gen is not an excuse of whatever and admit the F-35 is a lost clauses. US being the biggest customer (While other are buying less than 700 F-35 in total) the F-35 project can survive if only US is purchasing the jet.

We WILL BE the only country that have full squadron inventory of 5th Generation jet before 2030 (Project supposed to be finish replacing all 4/4.5 gen in US with 5th Gen by 2028), where you expect both Russia and China are still in production with their own 5th Gen jet. With current projection J-20 IP at 2017/2018 J-31 IP somewhere 2020 and PAK-FA IP at somewhere 2017
and FG-FA at 2022

Even though you may think F-35 is inferior than PAK-FA or J-20 or even J-31, and assume you are right, we will still have number superiority with our 5th gen against the 4/4.5 Gen aircraft then operating from Russia and China or even INDIA. Unless you are trying to tell me F-35 does not even worth fighting with 4/4.5 gen.

by the time you any of your guy have full squadron somewhere later in 2030, we would already IPing our 6th gen. See, the point is not using the 6 gen as a stop gap of F-35 but rather use them as an technological superiority to build the gap between other nations. We will not lose the fighter edge, unless you stupid enough to think the F-35 project will still be flipped. But we have already paid most of the production cost and now up to unit cost, as long as we have 500 billions (which is 100 billions less than this year) we will be able to afford all the squadron.

And the cycle continue. When you are researching your 6th Gen, after you make all your squadron 5th gen, we will be researching 7th Gen then. Unless you can speed up the process and replace all your current squadron before we roll out the 6th gen, the world will always be 1 generation behind us.

So, your theory of F-35 will not get US Air Superiority is simply and plainly, stupid.

 

[godofwar]

dude, make sure your fact is RIGHT before getting into a debate with other.

1st point. F-22 and F-35 is not the same things, even F-22 and PAK-FA or J-20 or J-31 is a total different league of aircraft.

OMG they are different???

Seriously though, as you said no one has exclusive knowledge about how good or bad these machines will be.So how can you say that F 35 is better than, say J-20 or Pak-Fa ? You seem to contradict yourself.


2nd point. J-20, J-31 and PAK-FA is still in Trial phase, how do you know how much the Russian and Chinese can afford?? You have exclusive knowledge of the future?? Even the Chinese and Russian cannot figure out how many squadron they want and they can afford and you are telling me, you know?

No I was merely pointing out the probable number what I read in the reports.Otherwise what is the point of even talking about these things since none of us can see the future ?
Should we wait for an actual war to see which plane will have advantage and what will be the numbers of each plane ?When talking about future one has to make assumptions.Common sense, right ?

I assumed that Russia and India will have 250 each of Pak-Fa and FGFA respectively since that is the number being bandied about in reports.If want a debate based on hard facts about fighter planes that will be in service 20-30 years from now, then you are never going to get it.

3rd Point. India is not getting PAK-FA, they are getting FGFA, not PAK-FA. It is derived by PAK-FA, but please don't expect the performance will be one on one on par with PAK-FA

Yes I knew India would be getting FGFA not Pak Fa.Which is a modified Pak-Fa.
How India getting Pak-Fa or FGFA comes into the argument, I don't know.Probably you were trying to nitpick.Well done, you spotted an error that doesn't make an ounce of difference to the argument, but well done anyway.My bad.I wrote Pak-Fa because the name FGFA is so generic.
And btw from what I have read, FGFA will be even better than Pak-Fa just like MKI is better than SU-30.

Now if you are done with point scoring lets get back to discussing.
What I said was Russia China India are all getting 5th gen planes by 2020-30.In greater numbers than F 22.If F 35 is not more capable than these planes, what is the point of F 35 ?



4th point. We are currently building, and each 30 days we roll out a new F-35 airframe, We are BUILDING F-35 as we speak now, current 75 already build. Not like we stop building F-35 altogether. While China have 4 or 5 J-20 and J-31, Russia have 4 PAK-FA and Indian have 0 FGFA

5th point. We have already INDUCED F-35 into both USAF and USMC service.

Good for you.But I was not talking about which aircraft is where in its life cycle.What I said was US has put all its efforts in F 35.F 35 is replacing 3 different types of aircraft.If F-35 fails to match or exceed its competitors, some of which are cheaper than F 35, wouldn't it be a bad investment ?


And as you said only time can tell if F 35 will be amazing or a dud.I am saying it may/may not be great.You are saying it will definitely be great.


6th point. We can make more F-22, the production line is still there, infact we have replaced our crashed F-22, five of them, so the number build is not 189, but 194.

But aren't we debating the merits of decision to make less F 22s and more F 35s ?
Now, you are saying you will replace it with more F-22s if needed.This is exactly my point-if the JSF does its job, you shouldn't need to build more F 22s.


Even though you don't have the fact right, I will still answer your question

Thank you kind Sir for the patronizing remark. Much appreciated.Please tell me the correct facts about numbers of Pak-Fa and J20 in 2020 since you can obviously see the future and don't make assumptions on reports like the rest of us.


Having 6th Gen is not an excuse of whatever and admit the F-35 is a lost clauses. US being the biggest customer (While other are buying less than 700 F-35 in total) the F-35 project can survive if only US is purchasing the jet.

We WILL BE the only country that have full squadron inventory of 5th Generation jet before 2030 (Project supposed to be finish replacing all 4/4.5 gen in US with 5th Gen by 2028), where you expect both Russia and China are still in production with their own 5th Gen jet. With current projection J-20 IP at 2017/2018 J-31 IP somewhere 2020 and PAK-FA IP at somewhere 2017
and FG-FA at 2022

Even though you may think F-35 is inferior than PAK-FA or J-20 or even J-31, and assume you are right, we will still have number superiority with our 5th gen against the 4/4.5 Gen aircraft then operating from Russia and China or even INDIA. Unless you are trying to tell me F-35 does not even worth fighting with 4/4.5 gen.

So your basically saying F35 is built to fight against enemy 4.5 gen jets.We are in agreement here.Now tell me why can't F 15 Eagle/Hornet do the same thing at lower cost ? Don't you claim US planes are the best flying machines out there ?
This is the point junoon made.You are basically validating my point.

by the time you any of your guy have full squadron somewhere later in 2030, we would already IPing our 6th gen. See, the point is not using the 6 gen as a stop gap of F-35 but rather use them as an technological superiority to build the gap between other nations. We will not lose the fighter edge, unless you stupid enough to think the F-35 project will still be flipped. But we have already paid most of the production cost and now up to unit cost, as long as we have 500 billions (which is 100 billions less than this year) we will be able to afford all the squadron.

Yeah you already paid for it.It shows on your economy.The point ,I will repeat again, is that you could have achieved same thing by sticking to 4.5 gen planes for low end of the air force.

And the cycle continue. When you are researching your 6th Gen, after you make all your squadron 5th gen, we will be researching 7th Gen then. Unless you can speed up the process and replace all your current squadron before we roll out the 6th gen, the world will always be 1 generation behind us.

Wow!! that sounds like good ol' fairy tale.And then, the world was always 1 generation behind us and we lived happily ever after.I don't want to go off on a tangent from JSF to who will build 7th, 8th ...nth gen plane first.you So just stick to the topic.If you kept F 22 as the only 5th gen platform, you could have saved F 35 money.Or conversely you could have built 2 separate 5th gen platforms to the work of F 35 so you are not totally dependent on it.

So, your theory of F-35 will not get US Air Superiority is simply and plainly, stupid.

You may want to read the difference between theory,hypothesis and inquiry before throwing words like stupid at others.Raising questions about infallibility of a fighter plane does not make a person stupid.

I just wasted half hour of my life.

 

[gambit]

Is that a retraction of the defense of F 35 ? Or is it still a sacred cow ?

You currently have 189 5th gen planes.
Poor(er) countries like China and Russia can afford more in few years.
Heck even India can afford more Pak-Fa than you have F 22.
If F 35 doesn't come soon or isn't able when it comes, you will cede air power to these countries.
F 35 is not even inducted yet and you are talking about replacing it with 6th gen planes in a thread about strengths and weaknesses of JSF.Listen to yourself man!!

What good is all the money spent on F 35, if you simply replace it with 6th gen.If you induct a plane, you keep for atleast 3 decades .I think the money point was also made as a plus of F 35.US should have stuck with the Raptor/Eagle High-low combo till 6th gen came if that were the case.

Mind you, I am debating the point you made here, not the technicalities.

Saying F35's weakness won't matter because we will have 6th gen soon is a lazy argument.

You cannot avoid the technicalities because the technology is the foundation for these arbitrary categorization of 4th- or 5th-gen.

Now...Just because a design have all the outer trappings of 'stealth', that does not make it a 5th-gen fighter. For your education, the F-117 looked outright advanced but the technical realities is that its components came from diverse older aircrafts: The flight control system came from the F-16, the landing gear came from the A-10, and the environmental control system came from the C-130, which is not a fighter just in case you did not know. Finally, the F-117 does not have a radar. It flew solely by GPS assisted inertial nav system (INS).

So if we are to categorize the F-117 based upon its supporting systems, we have no choice but to call it 3rd-gen...!!!

What this mean is that just because the Chinese produced a 'stealthy' looking aircraft, by appearances alone, it does not mean the J-20 is in the same low radar observable class as the F-117. We do not know and even as an American who have relevant experience, in and out of the military in this field, I have no problem saying that we are uncertain as to how low is the J-20. We can reasonably speculate based upon some immutable laws of physics but unlike others here, I have consistently advised caution in making definitive claims. The same goes for the Russian PAK.

So if we go by appearances, visual and radar, what is the best low observable body? How about the sphere? Do we have any fighter that is a pure sphere? Anyone?

So then what make a real 5th-gen fighter, despite the fact that there is no international committee sitting around making these categories? What make a 4th- or 5th-gen fighter is about the SYNERGY of diverse supporting systems to produce a desired product. The fact that the -117's supporting systems came from older aircrafts is irrelevant. Those systems support a body shaping technology and design that is radically different than previous generations. Their contributions to this synergy is good enough.

For the F-22 and F-35, their supporting systems are either of the current technology or of an evolutionary process, from flight controls to engines to materials. The list is considerable. The synergy in each aircraft make each a standout and the standard to either match or beat, of which NO ONE have yet to even match, let alone surpassed. And to think that the F-22 is about 20 yrs old.

So you are flat out wrong when you implied that by moving on to the next generation, it is somehow a concession that we failed in the current iteration. Might as well say that the Wright Flyer is the ultimate aircraft.

I just wasted half hour of my life.

We do not feel the same in trying to educate deliberate ignorants like you. Our goal is not to change your mind. Obviously, it is already made up. Our goal is to challenge your arguments in the public arena and let the silent readers decide on whose are the superior arguments.

Drop your forum handle if you are going to think this way. No real deity of warfare is that limited in vision.

 

[500]

So your basically saying F35 is built to fight against enemy 4.5 gen jets.We are in agreement here.Now tell me why can't F 15 Eagle/Hornet do the same thing at lower cost ? Don't you claim US planes are the best flying machines out there ?
This is the point junoon made.You are basically validating my point.

Why do u need F-15? F-4 can do the same thing at lower cost.

 

[godofwar]

You cannot avoid the technicalities because the technology is the foundation for these arbitrary categorization of 4th- or 5th-gen.


You take one line out of context and try to make an argument out of it.Yes I agree we can't avoid the technicalities when discussing about fighter planes.Yet, I wrote that line in context of a poster saying US doesn't need to depend on F 35 being capable because US is working on 6th gen plane.I was debating this point and not technicalities of 5th or 6th gen planes.


Now...Just because a design have all the outer trappings of 'stealth', that does not make it a 5th-gen fighter. For your education, the F-117 looked outright advanced but the technical realities is that its components came from diverse older aircrafts: The flight control system came from the F-16, the landing gear came from the A-10, and the environmental control system came from the C-130, which is not a fighter just in case you did not know. Finally, the F-117 does not have a radar. It flew solely by GPS assisted inertial nav system (INS).

So if we are to categorize the F-117 based upon its supporting systems, we have no choice but to call it 3rd-gen...!!!

What this mean is that just because the Chinese produced a 'stealthy' looking aircraft, by appearances alone, it does not mean the J-20 is in the same low radar observable class as the F-117. We do not know and even as an American who have relevant experience, in and out of the military in this field, I have no problem saying that we are uncertain as to how low is the J-20. We can reasonably speculate based upon some immutable laws of physics but unlike others here, I have consistently advised caution in making definitive claims. The same goes for the Russian PAK.

If you read the my post you will find I am saying the same thing.There is no point in making definitive statement about superiority of F-35 when we don't know about its competitors.

So if we go by appearances, visual and radar, what is the best low observable body? How about the sphere? Do we have any fighter that is a pure sphere? Anyone?

So then what make a real 5th-gen fighter, despite the fact that there is no international committee sitting around making these categories? What make a 4th- or 5th-gen fighter is about the SYNERGY of diverse supporting systems to produce a desired product. The fact that the -117's supporting systems came from older aircrafts is irrelevant. Those systems support a body shaping technology and design that is radically different than previous generations. Their contributions to this synergy is good enough.

For the F-22 and F-35, their supporting systems are either of the current technology or of an evolutionary process, from flight controls to engines to materials. The list is considerable. The synergy in each aircraft make each a standout and the standard to either match or beat, of which NO ONE have yet to even match, let alone surpassed. And to think that the F-22 is about 20 yrs old.



So you are flat out wrong when you implied that by moving on to the next generation, it is somehow a concession that we failed in the current iteration. Might as well say that the Wright Flyer is the ultimate aircraft.

And pray tell me where I implied this ? You make assumptions about me and then accuse me of being prejudiced.How ironical.

I never questioned the technicalities of F 35 because my field is completely removed from aircrafts.I am merely giving voice to objections which I have come across via casual surfing.I am not an expert and nor do I claim to be one.But t the same time, I am within my rights to take claims about F 35 with a pinch of salt, especially if they are coming from its makers on an internet forum.

We do not feel the same in trying to educate deliberate ignorants like you. Our goal is not to change your mind. Obviously, it is already made up. Our goal is to challenge your arguments in the public arena and let the silent readers decide on whose are the superior arguments.

So its obvious to you that my mind is made up ? If you feel that way then its you who is a deliberate ignorant ,not me.
I haven't even made a single argument that F 35 is/isn't capable aircraft because its not my place to do so.
The argument that I have made though is that F 35 seems to be an expensive toy that wasn't needed and only time can tell its efficacy.Which is something you have completely ignored.
And please don't be sensitive about me wasting my time remark.It was directed towards myself and not anyone else.Only reason I come here is to waste time.I had to write something below the quoted post.

Drop your forum handle if you are going to think this way. No real deity of warfare is that limited in vision.

You are already proclaiming me to be insular to your opinions without even putting in a single argument in favour of F 35 except some vague things like "Synergy of flight control systems" .Its you who is opinionated, not me.

Why do u need F-15? F-4 can do the same thing at lower cost.

Ummm I am not sure if F-4 can beat 4.5 gen planes....but if you say so....

 

[500]

Ummm I am not sure if F-4 can beat 4.5 gen planes....but if you say so....

Put AMRAAMs and AIM-9X and surely it could beat.

 

[godofwar]

Put AMRAAMs and AIM-9X and surely it could beat.

You are the "expert".
Probably something to do with synergy of engine and composite materials which no one else can match.

 

[500]

You are the "expert".
Probably something to do with synergy of engine and composite materials which no one else can match.

No need to be an expert to realize that F-4 equipped with AMRAAMs (like F-4 ICE) can beat 4.5 gen planes.

 

[godofwar]

No need to be an expert to realize that F-4 equipped with AMRAAMs (like F-4 ICE) can beat 4.5 gen planes.

Awwww! don't sell yourself short dear.The rest of us don't even know what a C 130 is...

 

[gambit]

So you are flat out wrong when you implied that by moving on to the next generation, it is somehow a concession that we failed in the current iteration. Might as well say that the Wright Flyer is the ultimate aircraft.

And pray tell me where I implied this ? You make assumptions about me and then accuse me of being prejudiced.How ironical.

Right here...

What good is all the money spent on F 35, if you simply replace it with 6th gen.If you induct a plane, you keep for atleast 3 decades .I think the money point was also made as a plus of F 35.US should have stuck with the Raptor/Eagle High-low combo till 6th gen came if that were the case.

And I do not have to pray to find it.

It is funny that in one breath, you told us that you are no expert but in another breath you have no problem declaring that we should keep an aircraft for X years. Make up your mind. Which is it? Do you have any experience in aviation or not?

I have been debating the F-35 long and with many people enough to tell who is in it for a serious debate apart from who is in it just to score mindless criticisms and rhetorical points. You are the latter.

The argument that I have made though is that F 35 seems to be an expensive toy that wasn't needed and only time can tell its efficacy.Which is something you have completely ignored.

Har...You made a funny...

I guess in your world when equipment are worn out, you wait until all your gear rotted away completely before you start getting new ones to replace them.

For a claimed non expert you certainly are sure of your non expert opinion.

You are the "expert".
Probably something to do with synergy of engine and composite materials which no one else can match.

Good. You are learning something. It looks like my 30 min is not completely wasted after all.

 

[500]

Awwww! don't sell yourself short dear.The rest of us don't even know what a C 130 is...

Dont cry baby, dont cry.

 

[BeyondHeretic]

Dont cry baby, dont cry.

500 , darling , f-4 is a heavy azz , so it sure can't beat f-18 hornet , hope this helps