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Vertical Launch Astra Based Air Defence System (LLQRM) Under Development

That's a self-contradicting statement you made and you have failed to explain in clear terms why India must invest in two SAMs of the same range. Why is duplication taking place? If Akash is good use Akash, if Astra is good then use Astra.

Not at all, you just have no interest in understanding the differences and by the lack of arguments, you just keep repeating the same things about range. But the fact remains, Akash and Astra are different SAMs with different purposes, just as Barak 8 and Derby are.
 
Not at all, you just have no interest in understanding the differences and by the lack of arguments, you just keep repeating the same things about range. But the fact remains, Akash and Astra are different SAMs with different purposes, just as Barak 8 and Derby are.

You have no understanding on the matter itself, judging by your confused replies.

Armies induct weapons based on need specifications. There are very short range air defence systems like tungushka which has a short range of 10-15 km and the like. These are generally used to shoot down enemy ordinance and UAVs they don't have the range to deter enemy aircraft but can prove useful. Then there are medium range SAMs with ranges between 50-80 km and can be used as point air defence. Then you have long range SAMs of 100+ km like the S-300 which can be used as anti-aircraft, anti-missile, anti-UAV etc etc etc.

Now why would a country invest in two different types of V-SHORAAD when both have the same range and one is arguably better than the other?

You come up with some confused and half baked responses saying they fit in different platforms and have different purpose but you could not define the said purpose. This is what happens when you don't have an understanding of a particular topic but you memorise and parrot stuff you read on the internet.
 
So both the missiles have some pros and cons, one is better suited in some situation and other is better suited in some.

Are you kidding me? air-defence Missiles are not inducted or deployed on how how explosives they carry in their warhead. ROFLOL!!!

The division is V-SHORAD, MR-SAM, LR-SAM etc. V shorad or the very short range air defense is the last line of defence against incoming airborne threat. Due to its short range and quick reaction time it is usually used as anti-munition system to shoot down enemy missiles and ordnance, though it can also be used against aircraft.

Medium range SAMs are used as point defense weapons to give protection over a specified area.

Long range SAMs are theatre defense weapons and are designed to shoot down enemy aircraft and missiles at a very long range thus providing a large area of protection.

How on earth does inducting two VSHORADS of the same range make any sense? Either induct the Akash or the Astra.

What is a commander supposed to do, "Hey look there is an enemy helicopter. It is 15 km away. But we have only Astra which has a range of 20 km but light warhead. Let's ask HQ to send us a battery of Akash missiles which has a range of 25 km but a heavier warhead." - Is the commander supposed to react like this?
 
Perhaps, this post of yours had little more logic than previous one......

Trolls like you should not talk about logic, does not suit you.

15 kg of warhead is light compared to 60 kg warhead of Aakash. (if 15 kg of HMX is serious stuff than 60 kg is much more than "serious").

LOL!! How much explosive does it take to shoot down an aircraft/missile? Have you ever come across the term called "kinetic energy"? You claim that 15 kg is a lot, and even 155 mm shells have 10 kg at max. So why do you need 60 kg - which is six times the amount of an 155 mm shell - to bring down an aircraft?

  • Akash is entirely dependent on radar

25 km range is very poor for radar guided missiles. But what else can be expected from DRDO.

Akash is less prone to jamming, Astra has more chances of getting jammed, but again Astra can engage many more threats simultaneously than akash

Shouldn't it be the other way round? It is radar guided missiles which are more prone to jamming. And what is the guidance system for Astra? And how is Astra able to engage many more threats simultaneously?

Akash can accompany squadrons of tank but can Astra do same (No info available to me)

Here is a hint for you, it is EASIER to move around a lighter object than a heavier one.

Akash is developed completely and ordered in huge quantities, but Astra is underdevelopment (May be when it is fully developed might be army won't order Akash anymore, but that is a future question )

Or too much time and money has been spent in Akash and the army/ air force is compelled to buy the Akash.

Only range is similar, but everything else is different.

Spoken like a true novice who does not have a clue on what he is talking about.

Stinger/Tungushka and Patriot/S-300 are both surface to air missiles but both have very DIFFERENT roles because of its range. While Tungushka is for anti-munition roles the S-300 is for theatre defence. The Russians will not come up with another long range SAM with the same range as S-300 because they already have one. So if S-300 say has a range of 150 km then the new class of long-range SAMs will have a range exceeding 150 km.That is how common sense works.And if Russia indeed LR-SAM of the same range as S-300 then it will be to replace the latter.

So in this case either Astra will be replacing the Akash system or India is showing a fine example of stupidity.

Even than, if you find development of ASTRA based SAM wastage of resources than write a letter to Mr. Kejriwal highlighting the issue, may be he can orchestrate a dharna, to scuttle the project, just like the last time when he insisted buycott of Israeli weapons.

Kejriwal is not the defence minister of India. As an Indian you should be knowing who the defence minister is unless you are related to alia bhatt.
 
This is democracy and everybody is free to have their opinion, You can have your's.




What's wrong in copying something which works. Our eastern neighbor have been doing it for very long time. This method is efficient (money and time) and probability would be skewed towards success

Anyway's you decide for yourself whether Aakash is better or Astra??
( I might err here or there with figures but idea is to describe missile in as layman language as possible)

Akash missile
  • Warhead weight is about 60kg of HMX (Generally HMX is used as explosive of choice for missile......it is far more potent than TNT or RDX)
  • Each missile weighs about 720 kg
  • Ramjet propulsion
  • No active radar in the missile (aka seeker) and hence completely dependent on the ground radar for targets (illumination)
  • Proximity fuse (warhead will go off, even if the missile is close to the target )
Advantages
  • Huge warhead. Explosion will be huge and hence more chance of target destruction, if it is in the vicinity
  • Missile itself is not prone to jamming
  • To jam the missile, one has to jam the radar (which is difficult because ground based radar are bigger and more powerful than aircraft radars
  • Army has liked it very much and ordered in huge numbers (proves they are happy with the field trials and the liked its performance, same can't be said with Arjun for instance)
  • Radar and missiles are all carried over tracked vehicle and can provide safety to mobile units (aka moving squadron/regiment of tanks)
Disadvantages
  • As the missile has no radar (seeker) in the nose section, it is completely dependent on the ground radar (Rajendra) for hitting the target. Hence, if something happens to Rajendra radar missile is useless
  • Rajendra can guide only four missile at the same time (For instance if six or eight aircraft attack, only four could be engaged, others would be free to destroy rajendra radar and cripple the Aakash battery)
  • For higher probability of intercept generally atleast two missiles are fired. Hence, rajendra can effectively deal with only two fighters at a time (but yes those two would have hard time evading the missiles)
  • All in all missile is highly dependent on ground radar and very heavy and as such more expensive
Astra based SAM
  • Warhead weight of about 15kg HMX (any other type of warhead means reduced explosion power)
  • Missile weight of 154 kg ( A2A missile weight, give or take few kgs when the missile would be deployed over land)
  • Houses a radar in its nose cone (seeker which is imported from russia and already used in r-77 missile)
  • Missile is going to be launched vertically and can hit in any direction (no akash missile cant do this)
Advantages
  • Less dependent on radar (missile will need radar only for launching (somewhat) and afterwards its own seeker will lock the target. Aka fire and forget missile)
  • Astra based SAM system could engage many more targets (4,8,10) etc, as the radar is not over worked
  • Missile would need less time to engage targets than say Akash missile
  • Smaller and lighter than akash
Disadvantages
  • Less explosives onboard (four times less than akash)
  • missile seeker is more prone to countermeasures (small size and less power of the radar)
  • Though the Astra missile based SAM battery could engage more fighters but probability of interception by single missile could suffer
  • No info if it can provide safety to mobile convoy of vehicles
So both the missiles have some pros and cons, one is better suited in some situation and other is better suited in some.


Akash has a potential to evolve as a 70 KM Range missile with seeker and 40 KM Range missile with a powerful booster. With AESA Radar ready to replace old rajendra, Range shall increase.
 
Akash has a potential to evolve as a 70 KM Range missile with seeker and 40 KM Range missile with a powerful booster. With AESA Radar ready to replace old rajendra, Range shall increase.

A 20 km range Astra and a 70km range Akash makes sense, IF true. A 20 km range Astra and a 25 km range Akash is a waste of money, induct only one because both are obviously SHORADS and will have the same mission parameters. Something these troll-bots do not understand. They think a change in the weight of the missile warhead means different roles for the missiles. :lol:
 
A 20 km range Astra and a 70km range Akash makes sense, IF true. A 20 km range Astra and a 25 km range Akash is a waste of money, induct only one because both are obviously SHORADS and will have the same mission parameters. Something these troll-bots do not understand. They think a change in the weight of the missile warhead means different roles for the missiles. :lol:


But how can we ignore Akash. Astra shall take at least 5 years to develop . Mean time Akash MK2 and Akash with seeker (70 KM Range) shall be in production. Astra shall be used as short range missile, Aksha upto 70 KM and Barak 8 (Ex sam) upto 110 KM after 5 years. so no contradiction.
 
Perhaps, this post of yours had little more logic than previous one......
  • 15 kg of warhead is light compared to 60 kg warhead of Aakash. (if 15 kg of HMX is serious stuff than 60 kg is much more than "serious").
  • Akash is entirely dependent on radar
  • Akash is less prone to jamming, Astra has more chances of getting jammed, but again Astra can engage many more threats simultaneously than akash
  • Akash can accompany squadrons of tank but can Astra do same (No info available to me)
  • Akash is developed completely and ordered in huge quantities, but Astra is underdevelopment (May be when it is fully developed might be army won't order Akash anymore, but that is a future question )
  • Only range is similar, but everything else is different.
Even than, if you find development of ASTRA based SAM wastage of resources than write a letter to Mr. Kejriwal highlighting the issue, may be he can orchestrate a dharna, to scuttle the project, just like the last time when he insisted buycott of Israeli weapons...!!!!!:rofl:



Bro, I am laughing after reading this comment. :rofl:

Wasn't another name of Akash with seeker "Maitri"?
What is current status of our JV with french ......Is it still going on or we have shut it down?
Akash with seeker is "Maitri"? From where you get this? :rofl:

Wasn't another name of Akash with seeker "Maitri"?
What is current status of our JV with french ......Is it still going on or we have shut it down?
Akash with seeker is "Maitri"? From where you get this? :rofl:
But how can we ignore Akash. Astra shall take at least 5 years to develop . Mean time Akash MK2 and Akash with seeker (70 KM Range) shall be in production. Astra shall be used as short range missile, Aksha upto 70 KM and Barak 8 (Ex sam) upto 110 KM after 5 years. so no contradiction.

Akash Mk.2 is out of question. And wastage of resources.

Canisterized version of Barak 8 and VL-Astra is the future.
 
But how can we ignore Akash. Astra shall take at least 5 years to develop . Mean time Akash MK2 and Akash with seeker (70 KM Range) shall be in production. Astra shall be used as short range missile, Aksha upto 70 KM and Barak 8 (Ex sam) upto 110 KM after 5 years. so no contradiction.

Akash won't be feasible exceeding a range of 40 km, specially in detecting and engaging low level flying targets, as Akash is a beam riding missile. Later upgrades may include a terminal homing seeker, with mid course guidance, based on the present generation of Akash.
 
Akash won't be feasible exceeding a range of 40 km, specially in detecting and engaging low level flying targets, as Akash is a beam riding missile. Later upgrades may include a terminal homing seeker, with mid course guidance, based on the present generation of Akash.

Yes, That is Akash Mk2 up to 40 Km and Aksh with seeker under consideration shall have 70 KM range.
 
Yes, That is Akash Mk2 up to 40 Km and Aksh with seeker under consideration shall have 70 KM range.

There is no point in making Akash with seeker at this point of time, as a booster stage may enable Astra based SAM to achieve the same range economically.

This policy of a beam riding missile, with terminal active homing with seeker can be utilized is making a different strategic SAM with range exceeding 180-200 km.
 
Whats so hilarious about it, elaborate and we can discuss....
You calling Astra is prone to jam but Akash not. :rofl:
Bro, first learn something. Then we discuss. Blabbering doesnt suit you.

Hint: Check the difference between active seeker, semi-active seeker and non seeker. Then check the meaning of X-band Radar homing and IIR interception.

My own thoughts on the matter. Many SAM system are under consideration for development and present situation appear to be chaotic. Anyway's it appears (to me) Akash with seeker and Maitri project could not co-exist ( I might be wrong on the matter though). But what is the current status of Maitri Project..... Is it ongoing or cancelled??

If you use brain, then ultimately you find out that Barak-2 and VL-Astra going to be in the hands of end users.
 
As per my understanding Ground radars (even PESA) are harder to jam than say missile RF seekers.
@gambit @sancho
Though, learning is on going process which is worth pursuing whole life:-)

Anyways, Barak 2 ( JV with Israel) and Astra VL(Indigenous) are different than Maitri Project....... So again my query " Is Maitri alive or dead?

Why you need to jam ground radar? And jamming IIR and X-band homing radar is easy? Where you reaching?

On the other note Maitri is dead horse, no one taking this seriously. More over you missed the most important point, Akash is not canisterized.
 
So what is the different between Astra VLS or maitri
and if astra is on they why we are going to maitri. Lots of confusion
 
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