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Utah sheriffs warn Obama of deadly war over guns

My question is why are Americans so afraid?
I am not afraid. I have my guns. But then again, are you saying that you have no problems with home invasions, rapes, robberies, and assaults?

You need guns to defend you from robbers murderers rapists the goverment the UN.
What happens with those guns by a two thirds majority they shoot the owners.
No idea what you tried to say here.

Allowing for most murders being by family members spouses etc the chances are if you own a gun the only person its going to be used on is you or your family.
What if that person uses a knife? Is that more palatable?

No limit on magazine capacity no limit on weapon choice would you be comfortable for the "quiet guy who keeps to himself" down the street owning one of these?
You are taking this to the extreme. Even a gun owner like myself sees some rational compromises.
 
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Utah sheriffs warn Obama of deadly war over guns
January 20, 2013


In the most strident warning over gun control to President Obama yet, the Utah Sheriffs' Association is pledging to go to war over any administration plan to take guns away, even if it means losing their lives.

Calling the Second Amendment a sacred right of citizens to protect themselves from "tyrannical subjugation," the association state elected sheriffs said in a new letter, "we are prepared to trade our lives for the preservation of its traditional interpretation."

Theirs is the first meaningful proof that some in law enforcement and the military are preparing to fight federal forces if the president wins his goal of sweeping gun control.

In a direct warning to Obama, the FBI and other agencies, the sheriffs wrote: "Make no mistake, as the duly-elected sheriffs our our respective counties, we will enforce the rights guaranteed to our citizens by the Constitution. No federal official will be permitted to descend upon our constituents and take from them what the Bill of Rights--in particular Amendment II--has given them."

While he wants an assault weapons ban and limits on ammo magazines, the president has not yet suggested he wants to confiscate guns.

The association revealed their concerns in a letter to the president just made public. It was sent on January 17. It opens by decrying the recent shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.

But the group argued that guns are simply "instruments," and that they are needed by law-abiding citizens to sometimes subdue killers. "The citizenry must continue its ability to keep and bear arms, including arms that adequately protect them from all types of illegality," said the letter.

Several groups have argued that assault weapons and high-capacity magazines are needed for self defense.

The association also called on Obama to push his efforts through Congress, not executive orders with no debate. "Please remember that the Founders of this great nation created the Constitution, and its accompanying Bill of Rights, an effort to protect citizens from all forms of tyrannical subjugation."

Utah sheriffs warn Obama of deadly war over guns | WashingtonExaminer.com
America is internally very strong or is it??;)

Hope the chinese, Iranis, Serbs,Russians,Palestine, Taliban, Al Qaeda and Pakistani army establishment is noticing these things.

We can take the WOT easily over their Land by exploiting such opportunities and internal differences like they do in our Lands.

Hope they r watching this.
 
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No idea what you tried to say here.


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2010 statistics violent deaths USA 19,392 people comitted suicide with a fire arm.
11,078 comitted murder with a fire arm rough maths yes but 2/3 of people killed with a gun killed them selves.

yes we have problems with assault sadly some of the worlds worst figures most of that is domestic.

Same thing with murder and violence in most countries the people most likley to kill you are people you know not a stranger breaking into the house.

In the U.S., the proportion of murder victims who knew their assailants to victims killed by strangers is about 3-to-1. (Source: U.S. Department of Justice.)
 
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No. In the US, it is 'Gun Rights = Free Speech'. If anything, gun rights ENSURE free speech. What is Canada's National Firearms Association's credo? In defense of freedom.

In defense of freedom? Gun rights ensure free speech? Pray how?

Do you guys still believe that a tyrannical govt - which in this hypothetical case would be the one with the most powerful military the world has ever seen - would come at you with flintlocks and muskets to take away your liberty? Remember Waco, TX.?

And wouldnt the Utah Sheriffs warning be considered a sedition offense?
 
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A perceptive column last month in the Economist that resonates my own stance on the whole issue:

Gun control
The gun control that works: no guns

I HESITATE to offer thoughts about the school shooting in Connecticut that has seen 20 children and seven adults murdered and the gunman also dead. Your correspondent has been in the rural Midwest researching a column and heard the news on the car radio. Along with a sense of gloom, I found I mostly wanted to see my own, elementary-school-age children back home in Washington, DC, and had little desire to listen to pundits of any stripe: hence my reluctance to weigh in now.

To be fair, on NPR, the liberal columnist E.J. Dionne had sensible things to say about President Barack Obama’s statement on the killings, and how it was probably significant when the president seemed to suggest that he was minded to take action on gun control, and never mind the politics. On the same show the moderate conservative columnist, David Brooks, expressed sensible caution about assuming that stricter gun controls could have stopped this particular shooting.

Switching to red-blooded conservative talk radio, I found two hosts offering a “move along, nothing to see here” defence of the status quo. One suggested that listeners should not torment themselves trying to understand “craziness”, though it would, the pair agreed, be understandable if some parents were tempted to remove their children from public education and homeschool them.

To that debate, all I can offer is the perspective of someone who has lived and worked in different corners of the world, with different gun laws.

Here is my small thought. It is quite possible, perhaps probable, that stricter gun laws of the sort that Mr Obama may or may not be planning, would not have stopped the horrible killings of this morning. But that is a separate question from whether it is a good idea to allow private individuals to own guns. And that, really, is what I think I understand by gun control. Once you have guns in circulation, in significant numbers, I suspect that specific controls on things like automatic weapons or large magazines can have only marginal effects. Once lots of other people have guns, it becomes rational for you to want your own too.

The first time that I was posted to Washington, DC some years ago, the capital and suburbs endured a frightening few days at the hands of a pair of snipers, who took to killing people at random from a shooting position they had established in the boot of a car. I remember meeting a couple of White House correspondents from American papers, and hearing one say: but the strange thing is that Maryland (where most of the killings were taking place) has really strict gun laws. And I remember thinking: from the British perspective, those aren’t strict gun laws. Strict laws involve having no guns.

After a couple of horrible mass shootings in Britain, handguns and automatic weapons have been effectively banned. It is possible to own shotguns, and rifles if you can demonstrate to the police that you have a good reason to own one, such as target shooting at a gun club, or deer stalking, say. The firearms-ownership rules are onerous, involving hours of paperwork. You must provide a referee who has to answer nosy questions about the applicant's mental state, home life (including family or domestic tensions) and their attitude towards guns. In addition to criminal-record checks, the police talk to applicants’ family doctors and ask about any histories of alcohol or drug abuse or personality disorders.

Vitally, it is also very hard to get hold of ammunition. Just before leaving Britain in the summer, I had lunch with a member of parliament whose constituency is plagued with gang violence and drug gangs. She told me of a shooting, and how it had not led to a death, because the gang had had to make its own bullets, which did not work well, and how this was very common, according to her local police commander. Even hardened criminals willing to pay for a handgun in Britain are often getting only an illegally modified starter’s pistol turned into a single-shot weapon.

And, to be crude, having few guns does mean that few people get shot. In 2008-2009, there were 39 fatal injuries from crimes involving firearms in England and Wales, with a population about one sixth the size of America’s. In America, there were 12,000 gun-related homicides in 2008.

I would also say, to stick my neck out a bit further, that I find many of the arguments advanced for private gun ownership in America a bit unconvincing, and tinged with a blend of excessive self-confidence and faulty risk perception.

I am willing to believe that some householders, in some cases, have defended their families from attack because they have been armed. But I also imagine that lots of ordinary adults, if woken in the night by an armed intruder, lack the skill to wake, find their weapon, keep hold of their weapon, use it correctly and avoid shooting the wrong person. And my hunch is that the model found in places like Japan or Britain—no guns in homes at all, or almost none—is on balance safer.

As for the National Rifle Association bumper stickers arguing that only an armed citizenry can prevent tyranny, I wonder if that isn’t a form of narcissism, involving the belief that lone, heroic individuals will have the ability to identify tyranny as it descends, recognise it for what it is, and fight back. There is also the small matter that I don’t think America is remotely close to becoming a tyranny, and to suggest that it is is both irrational and a bit offensive to people who actually do live under tyrannical rule.

Nor is it the case that the British are relaxed about being subjects of a monarch, or are less fussed about freedoms. A conservative law professor was recently quoted in the papers saying he did not want to live in a country where the police were armed and the citizens not. I fear in Britain, at least, native gun-distrust goes even deeper than that: the British don’t even like their police to be armed (though more of them are than in the past).

But here is the thing. The American gun debate takes place in America, not Britain or Japan. And banning all guns is not about to happen (and good luck collecting all 300m guns currently in circulation, should such a law be passed). It would also not be democratic. I personally dislike guns. I think the private ownership of guns is a tragic mistake. But a majority of Americans disagree with me, some of them very strongly. And at a certain point, when very large majorities disagree with you, a bit of deference is in order.

So in short I am not sure that tinkering with gun control will stop horrible massacres like today’s. And I am pretty sure that the sort of gun control that would work—banning all guns—is not going to happen. So I have a feeling that even a more courageous debate than has been heard for some time, with Mr Obama proposing gun-control laws that would have been unthinkable in his first term, will not change very much at all. Hence the gloom.

Gun control: The gun control that works: no guns | The Economist
 
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In defense of freedom? Gun rights ensure free speech? Pray how?

Do you guys still believe that a tyrannical govt - which in this hypothetical case would be the one with the most powerful military the world has ever seen - would come at you with flintlocks and muskets to take away your liberty? Remember Waco, TX.?

And wouldnt the Utah Sheriffs warning be considered a sedition offense?
All governments are tyrannical in nature. A government must take that initiative in order to assure its authority over the land and people, which the latter two combined is called a 'country'. The US Constitution is pretty much the first document, at least in the evolution of modern governments, that deliberately limit a government's tendency towards tyranny, first by its writers recognizing that tendency based upon their experiences, then by asserting that for the new country to start and continue, the country must place this document as tyrannical over all others.

The irony is obvious: That the US is a constitutional republic that contains a tyrannical document that places limits on the natural tendency of governments to be tyrannical.

In order to have free speech, there must be some form of assurance to those who would exercise this freedom that they would not be persecuted and this assurance cannot come from a promisory note from the government. How does a government persecute speech? By force because physical coercion is the best and final method to ensure compliance either to laws or to whims. Every parent know this. So does every government.

So is it really common sense for the people to take seriously a promisory note from a government that it will not act as a tyrant regarding free speech, especially when there is equally natural a tendency of humans to rebel and to criticize? That alternate method of assurance can only come from force from and by the people to counter the force that is inherent and necessary in the creation of a government. The tyrannical US Constitution outlined for its government that this capacity to wield force by the people shall not be violated by the government. It is precisely this alternate assurance that we have the people call US Presidents Clinton a sex offender and Bush a war criminal and the people actually made money making those insults.

Waco, TX? It is precisely because of the severity of resistance by religious fanatics aided by weapons that gives the US government pause in its natural desire to be tyrannical, as all governments tends to be tyrannical. Those religious fanatics were defeated, to be sure, and their defeat in many ways must occur because they were violators of laws that were deemed to be acceptable -- by popular consensus. But the assurance of availability of force to the people by the US Constitution is for when laws are enacted by a government designed to be contrary to the Constitution itself and that this government uses those non-Constitutional laws to justify its oppression over the country. So imagine Waco x1000 for if ever that day comes.

The US military, like all militaries, is composed of members contributed by the people and as such, those members will carry with them principles ingrained from childhood on what the US should be if the country is to be deemed 'Constitutional'. The US military will be nothing more than a shell if ever the US government ordered it to turn on the people. So in order for the US government to be truly tyrannical, as in how we see that tyranny in communism of the past and in the ME of today, the US Constitution would have to be abolished by popular consensus and absent a tyranny that is philosophically more powerful than the government's, the tyranny that is natural and inevitable by the government will be able to manifest itself to the full. We see that in China.
 
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In defense of freedom? Gun rights ensure free speech? Pray how?

Do you guys still believe that a tyrannical govt - which in this hypothetical case would be the one with the most powerful military the world has ever seen - would come at you with flintlocks and muskets to take away your liberty? Remember Waco, TX.?

And wouldnt the Utah Sheriffs warning be considered a sedition offense?

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Quoting NRA posters and talking points over and over doesn't make it a fact.

What was not mentioned about Israel is that in general their rate of gun ownership is extremely low in comparison to a lot of countries. Quite a few countries in Europe has more guns per capita in comparison to Israel. Arming teachers with guns is mostly symbolic, when they probably fear the Palestinians or neighboring countries far more than any possible domestic killers.

The "defend myself" argument is completely idiotic. Why? Because it assumes that the attacker will

0. Never come as a group
1. Crazily run up to the victim and make a bunch of noise.
2. Turn the victim around
3. Announce the planned attack
4. Wait for the victim to pull out the gun
5. Don't throw a punch or fire his/her own weapon
6. The victim don't miss

In reality what REALLY happens is that the attacker would come from behind or as a group and immediately incapacitate the victim by whatever means necessary. When firearm is actually used its usually the attacker silencing the victim quickly and efficiently, NOT the victim defending himself.

The element of surprise is quite an advantage. There's a reason why there's barely any news about successful defense with a gun. I read more news about unarmed thieves getting shot dead (of course a significant portion of those cases ends up being a family member shot because the shooter thought that there's a thief). I guess using excessive force against relatively petty crimes is the only "defense" possible.

Even assuming that the defense is successful, the one attack prevented is far outnumbered by the deaths by attacker getting the first shot or accident misfires at home.
 
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And thats why you have stringent rules governing operation of a motor vehicle. One needs a license to operate one. One needs to undergo training to be able to operate one. All sales of a motor vehicle are regulated and documented. All this for simple operation of a machine which is a means of transportation from point A to point B.

And yet, to operate a machine which is specifically designed to kill people enmasse, the likes of NRA and its supporters DONT want any measures to ensure safe operation? How fvcked up and ridiculous is that!

And seriously NRA posters are ridiculous, so say the least. POTUS being protected by the Secret Service is an NRA issue against gun control?

Waco, TX? It is precisely because of the severity of resistance by religious fanatics aided by weapons that gives the US government pause in its natural desire to be tyrannical, as all governments tends to be tyrannical. Those religious fanatics were defeated, to be sure, and their defeat in many ways must occur because they were violators of laws that were deemed to be acceptable -- by popular consensus. But the assurance of availability of force to the people by the US Constitution is for when laws are enacted by a government designed to be contrary to the Constitution itself and that this government uses those non-Constitutional laws to justify its oppression over the country. So imagine Waco x1000 for if ever that day comes.

The US military, like all militaries, is composed of members contributed by the people and as such, those members will carry with them principles ingrained from childhood on what the US should be if the country is to be deemed 'Constitutional'. The US military will be nothing more than a shell if ever the US government ordered it to turn on the people. So in order for the US government to be truly tyrannical, as in how we see that tyranny in communism of the past and in the ME of today, the US Constitution would have to be abolished by popular consensus and absent a tyranny that is philosophically more powerful than the government's, the tyranny that is natural and inevitable by the government will be able to manifest itself to the full. We see that in China.

Your long post, sorry to say, makes no sense. You argue that an armed populace is a sure guarantee against tyranny of a democratically elected govt - run by representatives elected from among the people? Basically you say that you dont trust the very people you send to represent your interests in the govt. And you people need guns to defend yourselves against diabolical interests of the very people you elect to represent yourselves? WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM & DEMOCRACY IS THAT?

Also, gun control people ARENT taking away your guns, just that there SHOULD be regulations governing their sale, operation/use etc - just like motor vehicles. Why is it so difficult to understand this?
 
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Quoting NRA posters and talking points over and over doesn't make it a fact.

What was not mentioned about Israel is that in general their rate of gun ownership is extremely low in comparison to a lot of countries. Quite a few countries in Europe has more guns per capita in comparison to Israel. Arming teachers with guns is mostly symbolic, when they probably fear the Palestinians or neighboring countries far more than any possible domestic killers.

The "defend myself" argument is completely idiotic. Why? Because it assumes that the attacker will

0. Never come as a group
1. Crazily run up to the victim and make a bunch of noise.
2. Turn the victim around
3. Announce the planned attack
4. Wait for the victim to pull out the gun
5. Don't throw a punch or fire his/her own weapon
6. The victim don't miss

In reality what REALLY happens is that the attacker would come from behind or as a group and immediately incapacitate the victim by whatever means necessary. When firearm is actually used its usually the attacker silencing the victim quickly and efficiently, NOT the victim defending himself.

The element of surprise is quite an advantage. There's a reason why there's barely any news about successful defense with a gun. I read more news about unarmed thieves getting shot dead (of course a significant portion of those cases ends up being a family member shot because the shooter thought that there's a thief). I guess using excessive force against relatively petty crimes is the only "defense" possible.

Even assuming that the defense is successful, the one attack prevented is far outnumbered by the deaths by attacker getting the first shot or accident misfires at home.
The reason why successful self defense events like this one...

GA Woman Who Shot Intruder Hailed as Model Gun Owner
Melinda Herman, an Atlanta-area mother, shot a home intruder five times in the face and neck on Friday, in defense of herself and her 9-year-old twins, according to police. The intruder was identified as Paul Ali Slater, who had been released from jail in August, and is now receiving medical treatment.

...Seldom make the news is because self defense is a natural impulse in humans and a successful defense when the victim prevails is boring. We want criminals to pay for their crimes, at the scene or later when apprehended, but preferably at the scene. If the criminal is dead, it saves the taxpayers a lot money.

For all your standard talking points from popular anti-gun diatribes regarding 'assault' weapons, here is the difference between an 'assault' or automatic weapon versus a semi-automatic weapon...

Assault or fully automatic weapon:
- Trigger pull = RATATATATATATATATATAT.

Semi-automatic weapon:
- Trigger pull = BANG
- Trigger pull = BANG
- Trigger pull = BANG
- Trigger pull = BANG

Get it?

Let us try that again...

Assault or fully automatic weapon:
- Trigger pull = RATATATATATATATATATAT.

Semi-automatic weapon:
- Trigger pull = BANG
- Trigger pull = BANG
- Trigger pull = BANG
- Trigger pull = BANG

See the difference?

The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting was done with a semi-automatic weapon. I used to lug around an M-4, a later version of the M-16, when I was active duty. That was a fully automatic weapon. Today, I have a DSA FAL 308 semi-automatic rifle.

Federal Assault Weapons Ban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 2004, a research report submitted to the United States Department of Justice and the National Institute of Justice found that should the ban be renewed, its effects on gun violence would likely be small, and perhaps too small for reliable measurement, because rifles in general, including rifles referred to as "assault rifles" or "assault weapons", are rarely used in gun crimes.
See that...??? Genuine fully automatic weapons are so rarely used in gun related crimes, that are outside of gangs and organized crimes, is to be statistically meaningless. Law abiding citizens will not seek them out because they are law abiding.

You cannot offer any credible arguments/evidences to say that using a regular manually activated bolt action rifle, the kind allowed by Canadian laws, that the Sandy Hook shooter cannot kill the same amount of victims, especially considering the type of victims in the first place -- children. And if he had used a 12 gauge shotgun, the kind allowed by Canadian laws, he most likely would have killed even more children.
 
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And thats why you have stringent rules governing operation of a motor vehicle. One needs a license to operate one. One needs to undergo training to be able to operate one. All sales of a motor vehicle are regulated and documented. All this for simple operation of a machine which is a means of transportation from point A to point B.
Law abiding gun owners have no objections to training, licenses, and background checks. I have a Concealed Carry Permit (CCP) and I made no objections to the process. In that, your argument is pointless.

And yet, to operate a machine which is specifically designed to kill people enmasse, the likes of NRA and its supporters DONT want any measures to ensure safe operation? How fvcked up and ridiculous is that!
Semi-automatic weapons can kill only one person at a time. Whereas with a car...

Four killed as car demolishes bus stop in Las Vegas - News - ReviewJournal.com
By some estimates, the 3,000-pound 2001 Monte Carlo was moving at 100 mph when it spun out of control, rolled and slammed into the lightweight sidewalk bench and sun shade on the south side of the street, where people patiently waited for a ride to work.
A single car hit can kill multiple people, either deliberately or accidentally. And I bet that driver have a license.

The driver of the Monte Carlo, Gary Lee Hosey Jr., 24, was listed in serious condition. Though still hospitalized, he was booked in absentia on four recommended charges of DUI causing death.
Well...Looky here...Driving under the influence. We should ban cars that are capable of exceeding five miles/hr. Even if just one life is saved, and how many parents accidentally ran over their children in the driveway, such a ban would be worth it.

And seriously NRA posters are ridiculous, so say the least. POTUS being protected by the Secret Service is an NRA issue against gun control?
The point is that important people, semi-important people, and people who perceived themselves to be important and semi-important, in government and the entertainment industry, grant themselves the freedom and right to be protected, either with their own weapons, or they have guns-for-hire to protect them and their property. Why should that freedom and right be denied to ordinary people? Sorry to disappoint you, but between the President's family members and my G/F, she is more important to me than the President's family.


Your long post, sorry to say, makes no sense. You argue that an armed populace is a sure guarantee against tyranny of a democratically elected govt - run by representatives elected from among the people? Basically you say that you dont trust the very people you send to represent your interests in the govt. And you people need guns to defend yourselves against diabolical interests of the very people you elect to represent yourselves? WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM & DEMOCRACY IS THAT?
No, I do not. That is why we have something calls 'checks and balances' in the US government. Not one branch trust the other with the total power of the government. Obama is a President, not a King, same for Raygun or Clinton, and King instead of President is what you are implying here. That is the type of idolatry that is abhorrent to most Americans, at least on the conservative side anyway.

Also, gun control people ARENT taking away your guns, just that there SHOULD be regulations governing their sale, operation/use etc - just like motor vehicles. Why is it so difficult to understand this?
Denial of access by increasingly regulative means pretty much equals to the confiscation of guns. If I say only left-handed people are allowed to buy guns, would YOU agree to that? After all, am not taking any guns away in the market, I only made it tougher to buy for the majority of the people.
 
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If someone can post a pictures about "how great gun is" I can post a different pictures.
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& how can we forget this video by the NRA
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