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US tells Delhi to back off Pakistan and lay low in Afghanistan

I wonder why all the Pakistani members here feel that the US has any influence over India? The only thing that I can think of that the US made us do against our will is the vote against Iran at the IAEA. But this too was a fair deal in exchange for the Nuclear deal leading to a major US policy shift towards India.

India has lived without American support for over 50 yrs since independence. The reason for the recent camaraderie between the two nations is the Nuke deal and nothing else.

India doesn't need any American aid. We do not have US soldiers fighting close to our borders. US drones do not fly over Indian airspace. As far as military needs are concerned we have Russia and the rest of the world to supply us top class equipment.

So all in all I really dont see any issue between the two countries which the US can use to arm twist India and make it do things against its wishes.

I hope you guys get my point here?
 
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India is begging for attention in Israel and US... What influence it has? What about assistance on LCA? Planes? UAV's? Nuclear deal? Or let us remind you that you beg for US MRCA... Or those gas turbines for your "indigenous" ship...
 
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India is begging for attention in Israel and US... What influence it has? What about assistance on LCA? Planes? UAV's? Nuclear deal? Or let us remind you that you beg for US MRCA... Or those gas turbines for your "indigenous" ship...

Well don't mix up Israel here. Israel has been trading in military hardware with India since 1999 when US had imposed heavy sanctions on us after the Pokhran blasts.

As far as nuclear deal goes India has already secured it if u didn't know! India now has full NSG waiver and IAEA clearance to trade in Nuclear technology with the world and not only US. We have separate deals with France and Russia so absolutely no US tech. is required.

As far as MRCA is concerned India will be only too happy if US pulls out as I don't see any interest in their F-16s and F-18s within India. Rafale, EF-typhoon and Mig-35 with ToT are better options.

GE is not the only company manufacturing gas turbines in the world. Russia manufactures more than capable gas turbines. Also, the Indian state wont collapse if the turbine is denied to us. So, worst case the warships will be delayed and trust me we can live with it.

So if these are the only points over which you want to prove US influence over India then I am sorry to disappoint you. If you have more lousy points in ur favor then 'Bring em on'.

BTW India doesn't have to beg anyone for anything coz we got the $$$$ and its this what they are after. So you decide who needs whom more?
 
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Influence exists, provided India is not guilty of that which Pakistanis charge her with.

If India is truly desirous of peace in the region, then taking steps to encourage a redeployment of the Pakistani Army to the West is in its interest.
 
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First, still there alot has to be done to prove the indian claims of mumbai attacks.
Great beginning. The only claim: "Pakistan Sponsored", if your own country men have accepted it, your citizen is caught red handed, interviewed by so many intelligence agencies nobody thought it was India but Pakistan.

Second Comment. I have nothing else to say when your own Govt accepted that the attacks were planned in Pakistan and the terrorist captured is Pakistani! Were they all Saudis? .. weren't a few from Pakistani descent as well?

Third, india should first have some house-keeping before it points outwards.
Get us proof of our involvement and then blame us! Lets see how we respond. Hell why don't you build some international pressure on us?

Fourth, if India is ready to put up the claim of a sub-continental super power(with its military might, hooking up bases in various countries, it's navy claiming to be a continental navy now etc etc), why in the first place it FAILED to preempt and react to acts of terrorism inside its soil?

Nuclear is used so loosely on this forum that it is scary! Yes we are concerned about Nuclear weapons of Pakistan!!!! We cannot act in an irresponsible manner, if we do, the world would be talking about our nuclear weapons and how to take them away!!! wait!.. aren't such reports coming out for a different country though?

How can a country who supports terrorists can complain of terrorism i wonder. Surprising indeed.

Hmmm why is American not sending her UAVs over India?

All of the above points have been beaten up to death by both sides on the forum numerous times. But its the same reaction every time :disagree: .
How about a Russian analyst's view on the Mumbai attack since we've seen so many calling your country a Migraine?
 
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Influence exists, provided India is not guilty of that which Pakistanis charge her with.

If India is truly desirous of peace in the region, then taking steps to encourage a redeployment of the Pakistani Army to the West is in its interest.


That is bit of an oxymoron statement from you Mr. Am. Why should India lets it gurad down after the mumbai attack. It is no different matephorically saying the united states do the same after the 911 attacks. It tends to create fear and anger to not to let it happen again.

Your sentence is geared more towards how badly pakistan want to save itself, becomes it's paragotive to do so in it own will, and it is prudent decision to move the army in the taliban theater. The arguement of India aggressive behavoir prevents us does not hold any water, since India has a major stack with the United States with its nuclear proliferations. And also India aggression stance is more towards the terror cells operating in Pakistan then the Pakistan establishment.
 
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That is bit of an oxymoron statement from you Mr. Am. Why should India lets it gurad down after the mumbai attack. It is no different matephorically saying the united states do the same after the 911 attacks. It tends to create fear and anger to not to let it happen again.

Your sentence is geared more towards how badly pakistan want to save itself, becomes it's paragotive to do so in it own will, and it is prudent decision to move the army in the taliban theater. The arguement of India aggressive behavoir prevents us does not hold any water, since India has a major stack with the United States with its nuclear proliferations. And also India aggression stance is more towards the terror cells operating in Pakistan then the Pakistan establishment.

Wait, isn't your Pradhan Mantri and Mukhi Mantri going around screaming about how Pakistan is in danger of becoming a failed state and that extremism needs to be combated?

Well, if that sentiment is sincere, then creating an environment that allows for Pakistani troops to be deployed in the West is exactly the remedy for the complaints voiced by your leaders, if they are sincere about stability in the region that is.

Secondly, this argument of 'India letting her guard down' has been shown to be a canard several times on this forum. It is a canard because no one is talking about denuding forces along the IB and LoC. India and Pakistan do not need their strike Corp's or major combat units in the area to guard against infiltration. Pakistan will not be in any position to carry out a military offensive against India with significant resources deployed in the West, nor will it want an militant groups to carry out major offensives in India and risk a repeat of the situation post Mumbai, and redeploy troops to the East before the mission is complete in the West.

As i said before, Indians need to think a little less with their emotions and jingoism on this issue and more with their heads - if stability in South Asia and a defeat of the Taliban is in India's interests, then there is little downside for India or Pakistan in the idea of creating space for the Pak. Mil to redeploy in the West.

The downside only exists if India is in fact pursuing a policy of destabilizing Pakistan, in which case creating space for Pakistan to tackle the situation is the last thing India would do.
 
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Washington wants to concentrate and does not want any distractions from it focus on Afghanistan. Everything else is a distraction. Delhi’s bickering is more than a distraction, it is a nuisance. Washington wants it stopped.Why the US gave up India as a Strategic partner? The answer to this complex question can be summed up in a Clintonian cliche “its the economy stupid”. The Obama Administration has taken a page out of the Nixon playbook–build a relationship with China at the expense of India.

The Bush administration had tried to build up India as a counterweight to China with a strategic partnership with India “as a natural ally”. This report in the New York Times is a poignant reminder of where the world of US-China relationship is headed. One never thought that we would see a US Secretary of State in Beijing literally begging the Chinese for “loans” (actually buying Treasury bonds). Its a new world–let the begging and groveling begin.


24 March, 2009

WASHINGTON (AFP) — The United States called Monday on India to support rival Pakistan in rooting out extremism as Washington drafts a new “war on terror” strategy in South Asia.

Deputy Secretary of State James Steinberg also said the United States backed a global role for India and hailed New Delhi’s reconstruction assistance in Afghanistan, the source of unease in mutual neighbor Pakistan.

Steinberg delivered the first substantive remarks on India by President Barack Obama’s administration which is expected this week to unveil a new strategy on fighting Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

“I think it will be important for India to make clear that as Pakistan takes steps to deal with extremists on its own territory that India will be supportive of that,” Steinberg said at the Brookings Institution.

He said India should “look for ways to contribute to an overall environment which can then lead to further efforts to root out extremists.

“There is obviously a complex history between the two countries but we will encourage India to see that it has a big stake in the efforts that we will be advocating to work both with Afghanistan and Pakistan,” he said.

He did not go into specifics, but the US Defense Department has said that the Pakistan, suspicious of New Delhi, was sending troops to the Indian border that would be better used fighting extremists in areas bordering Afghanistan.

Tensions between India and Pakistan shot up after Islamic militants went on a bloody three-day rampage in Mumbai in November, killing 165 people. Pakistan has conceded the attacks were partly planned by extremists on its soil.

India and Pakistan, which both are nuclear armed, have fought three full-fledged wars since their separation at birth on independence from Britain in 1947. AFP. US asks India to support Pakistan on extremists.

The relationship between the “worlds largest democracies” has been sacrificed once again for the sake of the almighty Dollar and the other small irritant in West Asia–aka “defeat in Afghanistan”. India finds itself on the wrong side of history once again. For the first half century of its existence Bharat supported the Evil Empire.

Then in the 80s when the USSR imploded and Yogoslavia imploded, the Indian policy makers worked overtime to come up with a strategy of survival on this third planet from the sun. Egged on by a Democratic Congress, Mr. Clinton encouraged India to explode a nuclear device.

The Pokran explosions had a affect on India like the world has never seen. It allowed the youthful nation to being thinking big–beyond the confines of reality and beyond the realm of imagination. Within a decade of meager growth, Indian had not only proclaimed themselves a Superpower, but also convinced themselves of the death of Pakistan, the subservience of Bangladesh, the destruction of Lanka and the erosion of Nepal as a political entity.

In this dream world, Bollywood stopped filming movies in India and brought world capitals, skyscrapers and modern amenities into the theatres and homes of ordinary Indians.

Pretty soon a fog enveloped the nation–they actually started believing the Bollywood baloney and got swollen heads. Like the Michelins man full of air, the Superpower began to think of its borders beyond Uzbekistan and its Navy beyond the Pacific and Atlantic.

First I would like to point out, nothing here surprises me. Indian presence in Afghanistan is something we ought to cater great attention to...


When the US tells India "to lay low" in Afghanistan we Pakistanis and Muslims must ask ourselves what are the implications on our Geo-Political and strategic aims and on our national security both short and long term.


Indian military and agency presence in Afghanistan is intolerable, provocative, and offensive in nature, as the aims of the Indian RAW is to destabilize, weaken, supplement separatist movements and militants in Pakistan. The Indian RAW has a record of doing such things, in mingling into Pakistan's internal affairs, I.E. 1971 E.Pakistan when Indian supported the "Mukti Bahini" insurgents.


We must ask ourselves what does India seek in Afghanistan, why is India now reaching out to Afghanistan.

Understand for several years, India has been forbidden to establish cordial or strategic ties in Afghanistan due to the Pakistani and Islamic minded Taliban, which shares similar anti-Indian and anti-Hindu sentiment as the Pakistani people and Military do.

Now there is a new political development, US manufactured and staged 'democracy' has been seeded in Afghanistan, and the US-backed and former UNOCAL mouth piece/spokesperson and anti-Pakistani agent Pres. Hamid Karzai is President of Afghanistan, this has led to warm relations between Afghanistan and India, as far as Kabul and Delhi are concerned.

I have long argued, that the US selected and installment of Karzai was deliberate on the basis he comes from a prominent Afghan family, (related to the Former Afghan King Zahir Shah) but most importantly on the fact that Hamid Karzai serves the United State's anti-Pakistan agenda, and to contain Pakistan's prowess in the region, by containing Pakistan they indirectly contain China (Pakistan's #1 Military ally). It has been a long goal of the US to contain China since the Communist revolution.


Also through this Geo-Political stage craft, India also eats from the fruits of such plans by the US. As long as the US can maintain an obedient India a pro-US and pro-Western India, that will favor Western policies in the region, the US will in the short term back India perhaps long term as well; one to contain Pakistan's prowess, and two to contain China, when China is contained it provides the US a stronger hand over Taiwan....



Now back to the security implication for Pakistan of Indian presence in Afghanistan.



Indian RAW is currently familiarizing itself with the terrain, with the people, the mountains, the villages, and the roads; RAW is gathering intel now while they have the chance because for so long Afghanistan was a black hole for intelligence agencies except for ISI.:tup:


It appears from credible sources that Indian RAW is now training militants, so that the Pakistani army is forced to remove brigades and possibly divisions from the Western border to our Eastern one. Hence giving India a strategic advantage on our E.Border....In a quick war this would provide India a easier quick start fighting PA on our Eastern Border....


We really ought to wake up!


I consider what India is doing in Afghanistan and NWFP an act of War.


Our response should be to take tougher counter measures. I will briefly state some ideas below.

1) Capture or kill RAW agents in Afghanistan and or NWFP, using local help.

2) Use PA UAV's to strike at Indian RAW agents or network or infrastructure in Afghanistan, remember we are fighting the WoT so we should be doing that anyway....

3) More border security

4) Spread Anti-Hinduism sentiment among the local Afghans:tup:

5) We should also tell the local Afghans why it is not in their interest to be friends with India. Hindustan is a manipulator a trouble maker that does not respect Muslim power.
 
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India is begging for attention in Israel and US... What influence it has? What about assistance on LCA? Planes? UAV's? Nuclear deal? Or let us remind you that you beg for US MRCA... Or those gas turbines for your "indigenous" ship...

Munir, all you do is flame on the threads.

But allow me to clear your misperceptions, in your desire to constantly think India is just like Pakistan, you seem to have overlooked a few vital facts.

India does not need any kind of aid money for its military. Its self financed. India gives out RFI's for military deals-the companies-and any company, be it French, Israeli, Russian or American respond. The companies that respond, get an RFP. The best(usually L1) is chosen.

There has been no 'begging' for any MRCA-a tender has been issued. ANd companies have responded.

Same for the gas turbines-a tender was issued and LM won that tender to supply the IN with Gas Turbines.

Unlike Pakistan, India doesnt need approval for military deals, or as you put it 'beg' for military equipment. Every country offers almost everything directly to India. And India also uses a tendering process. India buys the equipment directly, no aid, no delayed payments among other such euphemisms are required in case of India. The company which wins the tender gets the order. Simple. Please dont confuse Pakistan with India in cases of military purchases. I see it as your long standing desire to constantly think of India as no better than Pakistan from economy to military to everything else.
 
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Great beginning. The only claim: "Pakistan Sponsored", if your own country men have accepted it, your citizen is caught red handed, interviewed by so many intelligence agencies nobody thought it was India but Pakistan.

Second Comment. I have nothing else to say when your own Govt accepted that the attacks were planned in Pakistan and the terrorist captured is Pakistani!
Had you read anything but more carfully before you replied the understanding would have been better.
Sir, that's what i was trying to hammer in your head that Ajmal and others being Pakistani doesnt mean that they are state sponsored! As on the contrary that happens in Kashmir.
Were they all Saudis? .. weren't a few from Pakistani descent as well?
Refer above.

Get us proof of our involvement and then blame us! Lets see how we respond. Hell why don't you build some international pressure on us?
Well now do you want me to copy and paste everything from google that is filled the extremist and separatist movement and political parties inside india?
i suggest you do it yourself.

As for the pressure, sir idiot what would you call the article that began this thread??
Nuclear is used so loosely on this forum that it is scary!
Yes it is scary....any doubts??
Yes we are concerned about Nuclear weapons of Pakistan!!!!
It's time that you should be concerned of your owns.
Hey thick head don't bable what the West says.

You are a century away from them.

Don't mock!

And don't copy!

Just doing as the Romans do will not do the job!!

The Nukes are still with us and would stay!!!
Can you please enlighten me what all problems we had faced since the US and others have started eying on our Nukes??? Did we dismantle them or had we thrown them in the sea??

They are still very much there is they were there when they were made.

Whay don't you raise your 'concerns' MORE so that it could have some potent effect on our us and we can go running hiding our nukes!!!!!

You are funny, really!
We cannot act in an irresponsible manner,

Even if your PM sneezes, you mobilize your forces after blaming Pakistan (a neighboring Nuclear state)...if you call this a responsible behavior then i must say you are sadly mistaken!!!
 
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First I would like to point out, nothing here surprises me. Indian presence in Afghanistan is something we ought to cater great attention to...

When the US tells India "to lay low" in Afghanistan we Pakistanis and Muslims must ask ourselves what are the implications on our Geo-Political and strategic aims and on our national security both short and long term.

Indian military and agency presence in Afghanistan is intolerable, provocative, and offensive in nature, as the aims of the Indian RAW is to destabilize, weaken, supplement separatist movements and militants in Pakistan. The Indian RAW has a record of doing such things, in mingling into Pakistan's internal affairs...............

First of all, I haven't even bothered to quote the complete rant that the above post stands for. I know, as an Indian member, I will not be able to put any sensible argumet to this one. Only ranting against rants works, hence, I will rather not attempt any.

Perhaps the learned ones like Neo, AM, Asim etc may try too cool down this one a bit, so that this lovely discussion here does not (again) become the same old rants and counter rants.

Same goes for the above post by enigma947. Very disapointing, coming from a senior member.
 
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Of course such things can be pulled off without the authorities knowing - Pakistan isn't Sweden with top notch law enforcement, largely similar nations surrounding it, and well developed institutions and databases.

Once bitten twice shy, India have indeed been on the recieving end of ISI / Pakistan's ploy of thousand cuts and events like Kargil are still their on the memories.

But now in the present scenario especially after Mushraff's rule, Indians have started realising that everything might not be happening with a GOP approval.

The Lahore attacks were pulled off weren't they, as was the Marriot blast, and Indian officials have themselves admitted that the DI network continues to operate in India. How can India allow such a network, accused of complicity in some of the major terrorist attacks in India, and so much crime, be allowed to survive without official patronage? That's the conclusion one would draw with your logic.

Nobody hold sa morale highground here. The moot point is mistrust. I wont trust the Pakistani establishment, as i dont think thyey have the wherewhittal to bring about a change. They are too weak to do it.
 
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Asim, did you mean it?
Of course. Our support, the public's mandate, fully supports the freedom struggle in Kashmir, morally, hopefully militarily, strategically, politically and ideologically.

There is no desire in Pakistan to see incidents like the Mumbai attacks and the scores of train bombings, Gujarat riots, Babri Masjid riots, so on.

Kashmir and India are different.
 
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All of that can also be construed as India's relentless desire for war in the region. Which is exactly why it got this slap on the wrist. If India's going to continue funding and supplying terror organizations in Pak, don't go crying to the world when the favor is reciprocated.

Which terror organisations are India funding. So you do agree that the 'favour' was reciprocated by pakistan.

The organizations you support in turn also kill Americans and sooner or later they are going to start saying wtf?

If we fund someone then we know how to make them work the way we want. We wont go the Pakistani way of making a monster and then losing control of it. Moreover we are creating it in a foreign land, even if US decides to take it on that would happen in Afghanistan or NWFP not in India. So chill.


Remember unlike the former idiot, Obama's primary focus has been Afghanistan. These things will routinely come up in all of their strategic planning meetings.

He is an American President, stands for America's interest. So dont get carried away.
 
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