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US strikes at the heart of China's tech ambitions with chipmaker ban

yeah okay a'ight man, whatever rocks your jealous little boat... :wacko:
Jealous? The US is still the world's leading semicon industry and I am in the midst of it. So why the hell should I be jealous of China? You just do not like the fact that I know what am talking about -- and you do not.
 
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Jealous? The US is still the world's leading semicon industry and I am in the midst of it. So why the hell should I be jealous of China? You just do not like the fact that I know what am talking about -- and you do not.


I detect your thirst of recognition about professionalism that you obviously do not obtain from the real world.

It is depicted in many of your argument that always indicating your aggressive behavior in promoting yourself. :)
 
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I detect your thirst of professionalism recognition that you may not obtained in the real world.
Sounds like YOU -- who claimed to have 'aviation studies' and yet not one post from you about aerodynamics that explain anything worthwhile. Probably you flunked that class, little man.

You think it is easy to reverse engineer anything in the semicon industry?

http://www.semi.org/en/domestic-equipment-suppliers-china-seek-both-semiconductor-and-solar-industry
Compared to overseas competitors, these companies are smaller in terms of overall revenues,...
The time it take to 'qual' or qualify any equipment is about one yr. It does not matter where it came from. The Chinese government can force any Chinese semicon manufacturer to buy domestically, but it will still take at least one yr to qual an initial equipment.

For starter, all fabs started with raised flooring.

https://www.nehp.com/raised-floor-systems.php

The reason is the sensitive nature of these equipment that deals in nanometers. The word is 'seismic', as in isolation of these equipment from any ground disturbances, even from street traffic. Air circulation is crucial, hence the perforated floor tiles, and the entire fab is positive pressurized, meaning the air pressure inside is slightly greater than outside.

Did YOU or any of your Chinese friends and supporters know that? I know at least one Chinese member of this forum does. But you are as ignorant of semicon manufacturing as you are ignorant of anything aviation related, despite your pretensions otherwise.

Next...

So to 'qual' or qualify any new equipment, the fab manager must make room for it. Most of the time, that mean removing one production readied equipment and the new equipment go in its place. Literally every single wafer that is processed on the new equipment is NON-SHIPPABLE, meaning the wafer cannot be allowed for sales. So already, weekly wafer out is negatively affected. Buyers, especially major names or 'first tier' clients, do not care what you do, only that you meet your contract obligations. Or they will go elsewhere and leave you with second or third tier customers who will pay less for what you have and you have no choice but to sell at a loss.

It takes months from wafer start to wafer ship for a basic NAND design, let alone something much more complex like a CPU that can compete against Intel or AMD. That mean the new equipment must be running non-shippable wafers for months while waiting for backend test data to see if the wafers that were processed on the new equipment is just as good as from the standard production equipment. Every wafer that processed off the new equipment is literally scrapped. It is only AFTER executive level review and approval of the new equipment can NEW wafers be available for sales.

So just because China can reverse engineer something from a Western company, that does not mean it is easy and quickly profitable. A semicon equipment sanction on China WILL produce negative effects by the second yr because the sanctions will probably include support agreements. That means Chinese equipment engineers will be on their own -- without vendor support. By the third yr, wafer quality will decline per shipment. By the fifth yr, Chinese semicon products will be bought by third tier clients like Joe Schmoe Computah Repairs.

You think am making this up? There is one Chinese member of this forum who will confirm what I said. He used to work for Intel Fab 68 in Dalian, China.
 
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Sounds like YOU -- who claimed to have 'aviation studies' and yet not one post from you about aerodynamics that explain anything worthwhile. Probably you flunked that class, little man.

You think it is easy to reverse engineer anything in the semicon industry?

http://www.semi.org/en/domestic-equipment-suppliers-china-seek-both-semiconductor-and-solar-industry

The time it take to 'qual' or qualify any equipment is about one yr. It does not matter where it came from. The Chinese government can force any Chinese semicon manufacturer to buy domestically, but it will still take at least one yr to qual an initial equipment.

For starter, all fabs started with raised flooring.

https://www.nehp.com/raised-floor-systems.php

The reason is the sensitive nature of these equipment that deals in nanometers. The word is 'seismic', as in isolation of these equipment from any ground disturbances, even from street traffic. Air circulation is crucial, hence the perforated floor tiles, and the entire fab is positive pressurized, meaning the air pressure inside is slightly greater than outside.

Did YOU or any of your Chinese friends and supporters know that? I know at least one Chinese member of this forum does. But you are as ignorant of semicon manufacturing as you are ignorant of anything aviation related, despite your pretensions otherwise.

Next...

So to 'qual' or qualify any new equipment, the fab manager must make room for it. Most of the time, that mean removing one production readied equipment and the new equipment go in its place. Literally every single wafer that is processed on the new equipment is NON-SHIPPABLE, meaning the wafer cannot be allowed for sales. So already, weekly wafer out is negatively affected. Buyers, especially major names or 'first tier' clients, do not care what you do, only that you meet your contract obligations. Or they will go elsewhere and leave you with second or third tier customers who will pay less for what you have and you have no choice but to sell at a loss.

It takes months from wafer start to wafer ship for a basic NAND design, let alone something much more complex like a CPU that can compete against Intel or AMD. That mean the new equipment must be running non-shippable wafers for months while waiting for backend test data to see if the wafers that were processed on the new equipment is just as good as from the standard production equipment. Every wafer that processed off the new equipment is literally scrapped. It is only AFTER executive level review and approval of the new equipment can NEW wafers be available for sales.

So just because China can reverse engineer something from a Western company, that does not mean it is easy and quickly profitable. A semicon equipment sanction on China WILL produce negative effects by the second yr because the sanctions will probably include support agreements. That means Chinese equipment engineers will be on their own -- without vendor support. By the third yr, wafer quality will decline per shipment. By the fifth yr, Chinese semicon products will be bought by third tier clients like Joe Schmoe Computah Repairs.

Like I said many times to you .... your argument only valid for FAB, and FAB is only part of Chip industry.

Example is clear: Huawei, they outsource the production of Kirin with 7nm to Taiwanese TSMC, so US embargo on Fab equipments to China wont paralyze chinese electronics industry. As simple as that ..

You think am making this up? There is one Chinese member of this forum who will confirm what I said. He used to work for Intel Fab 68 in Dalian, China.

Who is he?

@gambit,

Regarding the FAB, I haven't seen you respond on this:

For the top three chip maker in the world, TSMC, Intel, Samsung, their most powerful chip making equipment, the most advance photolithography machines are from ASML, made by Dutch.

ASML is the sole producer of the most advance photolithography machine, no other company in the world are capable of making those top machines

ASML is a Dutch company. At the sames time, TSMC, Intel, Samsung are holding certain shares of the ASML Dutch company.

For those high-energy laser heads, the most critical part of the photolithography machines, are make by Germans

So who holds the most critical key component for the machines to make the most advance CPUs, GPUs etc?

not America, not Dutch, but Deutsche.

if the world is in chaos, anyone is blockading anyone, America is not the most powerful, but Germans can stop earth revolving.


Cowboy is selve-over-estimatiging himself.
 
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And the start of it all. China's semicon industry is vulnerable and everyone knows it.

He has proved you are wrong, with very good points. That china semicon industry is not as vulnerable as you think :laugh:

Find out for yourself.

What for??

I dont need to. It is you who are thirsty with recognition.

Not everything is worthy of my response. Or my ridicule.

Of course. Because you are a joker :cheers:
 
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Sounds like YOU -- who claimed to have 'aviation studies' and yet not one post from you about aerodynamics that explain anything worthwhile. Probably you flunked that class, little man.

You think it is easy to reverse engineer anything in the semicon industry?

http://www.semi.org/en/domestic-equipment-suppliers-china-seek-both-semiconductor-and-solar-industry

The time it take to 'qual' or qualify any equipment is about one yr. It does not matter where it came from. The Chinese government can force any Chinese semicon manufacturer to buy domestically, but it will still take at least one yr to qual an initial equipment.

For starter, all fabs started with raised flooring.

https://www.nehp.com/raised-floor-systems.php

The reason is the sensitive nature of these equipment that deals in nanometers. The word is 'seismic', as in isolation of these equipment from any ground disturbances, even from street traffic. Air circulation is crucial, hence the perforated floor tiles, and the entire fab is positive pressurized, meaning the air pressure inside is slightly greater than outside.

Did YOU or any of your Chinese friends and supporters know that? I know at least one Chinese member of this forum does. But you are as ignorant of semicon manufacturing as you are ignorant of anything aviation related, despite your pretensions otherwise.

Next...

So to 'qual' or qualify any new equipment, the fab manager must make room for it. Most of the time, that mean removing one production readied equipment and the new equipment go in its place. Literally every single wafer that is processed on the new equipment is NON-SHIPPABLE, meaning the wafer cannot be allowed for sales. So already, weekly wafer out is negatively affected. Buyers, especially major names or 'first tier' clients, do not care what you do, only that you meet your contract obligations. Or they will go elsewhere and leave you with second or third tier customers who will pay less for what you have and you have no choice but to sell at a loss.

It takes months from wafer start to wafer ship for a basic NAND design, let alone something much more complex like a CPU that can compete against Intel or AMD. That mean the new equipment must be running non-shippable wafers for months while waiting for backend test data to see if the wafers that were processed on the new equipment is just as good as from the standard production equipment. Every wafer that processed off the new equipment is literally scrapped. It is only AFTER executive level review and approval of the new equipment can NEW wafers be available for sales.

So just because China can reverse engineer something from a Western company, that does not mean it is easy and quickly profitable. A semicon equipment sanction on China WILL produce negative effects by the second yr because the sanctions will probably include support agreements. That means Chinese equipment engineers will be on their own -- without vendor support. By the third yr, wafer quality will decline per shipment. By the fifth yr, Chinese semicon products will be bought by third tier clients like Joe Schmoe Computah Repairs.

You think am making this up? There is one Chinese member of this forum who will confirm what I said. He used to work for Intel Fab 68 in Dalian, China.

I'm worrying about the China's industry software more than IC.
There is wall in front of IC industry.
 
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I'm worrying about the China's industry software more than IC.
There is wall in front of IC industry.
China -- to put it bluntly -- does not have any friend, and regarding Pakistan, that is more a geopolitical than a shared ideological alliance. The notional West includes JPN, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore, all Asian countries who has closer ideological ties to the geographical West than to China. So for the semicon industry, the individual Western countries have no worries about sharing technologies. This is why China is making independence in semicon a top national security issue and willing to resort to even criminal means towards that goal.

But China still have a long way to go and despite best intentions, the dependency on Western sources, from IP to hardware, is increasing and that is because China is in competition with other companies for the same market. China cannot afford any break in output to shift her manufacturing to rely on indigenous equipment manufacturers. In the semicon industry, being merely one yr behind in technology is the equivalent of working 60-70 hrs per week per worker just to maintain that gap and not catching up, which mean not gaining market share. And right now, China IMPORT semicon products more than oil.
 
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China -- to put it bluntly -- does not have any friend, and regarding Pakistan, that is more a geopolitical than a shared ideological alliance. The notional West includes JPN, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore, all Asian countries who has closer ideological ties to the geographical West than to China. So for the semicon industry, the individual Western countries have no worries about sharing technologies. This is why China is making independence in semicon a top national security issue and willing to resort to even criminal means towards that goal.

But China still have a long way to go and despite best intentions, the dependency on Western sources, from IP to hardware, is increasing and that is because China is in competition with other companies for the same market. China cannot afford any break in output to shift her manufacturing to rely on indigenous equipment manufacturers. In the semicon industry, being merely one yr behind in technology is the equivalent of working 60-70 hrs per week per worker just to maintain that gap and not catching up, which mean not gaining market share. And right now, China IMPORT semicon products more than oil.

With or without friend China will go on, though self-contained is really hard, China has the most industry categories in the world
China will have more friends in the future, and iterate the technology sooner or later. If there's no breakout in fundametal science
in the west, time is on the China side.
 
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China -- to put it bluntly -- does not have any friend, and regarding Pakistan, that is more a geopolitical than a shared ideological alliance. The notional West includes JPN, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore, all Asian countries who has closer ideological ties to the geographical West than to China. So for the semicon industry, the individual Western countries have no worries about sharing technologies. This is why China is making independence in semicon a top national security issue and willing to resort to even criminal means towards that goal.

But China still have a long way to go and despite best intentions, the dependency on Western sources, from IP to hardware, is increasing and that is because China is in competition with other companies for the same market. China cannot afford any break in output to shift her manufacturing to rely on indigenous equipment manufacturers. In the semicon industry, being merely one yr behind in technology is the equivalent of working 60-70 hrs per week per worker just to maintain that gap and not catching up, which mean not gaining market share. And right now, China IMPORT semicon products more than oil.


7 years to 2025 is not too far away.

You are wrong. The reason why china can't catch up yet the FAB tech with US is because of the "moores law" that is still going on intensively now, that means china's progress will always be outpaced by US fab tech due to the law. But it's been predicted that the moores law effect will diminish in after 2020, that is the time that China will have a good chance to catch up.
 
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Why are Indians speaking for the Amercians on how to runs its business?

Not as if giving Indians the equal equipment they are capable of making anything :omghaha:
 
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Wrong. And just to be mean, am not going to tell you why.


By saying that you prove that you have no idea about the semiconductor issues, and you are a liar about your competence in semicon industry.

This is solid evidence about what I have explained you regarding moore's law and china's playing catch up in semicon technology, and that you are incompetence in this field.

The event was a coming-out party for the Electronics Resurgence Initiative (ERI), an evolving set of research programs valued at $1.5 billion over five years. They aim to counter two common enemies — the decline of Moore’s Law and the rise of China.
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333519

and also this:

Chinese chipmakers could be boosted in post-Moore’s Law
https://fudzilla.com/news/44356-chinese-chipmakers-could-be-boosted-in-post-moore-s-law

:laugh: :laugh: :omghaha:
 
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To be honest, as a Chinese, only in my view,I find it really difficult, very large device and software is made in USA. See if ZTE is blocked, many products can't be generated. Once the blockade of China’s economy will be seriously declining,
Products that the USA need to import is already produced in such as Vietnam etc.
When developing countries move to developed countries, other countries will not make it easy for you to change. In the past 50 years, (as far as I know)only four places have been successful, China Taiwan, China Hong Kong,South Korea, Singapore.So it is not easy ,this is a big test for Chinese leaders.
I hope we can complete the 2025 plan, complete the Belt and Road Initiative, and complete modern technologies such as AI, robotics, big data, and quantum computing etc.Hope our leaders to solve these problems well. and Let China rise
 
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Why are Indians speaking for the Amercians on how to runs its business?

Not as if giving Indians the equal equipment they are capable of making anything :omghaha:

Dude, I have an actual job unlike someone who each post will get them 50 cents, which would let someone live quite nicely in the hellhole you are from.

Before then

I am not the one that said "Stop Derailing the Thread" when I responded to your question.

Read this

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/huaw...hy-system-and-4000-mah-battery.550629/page-12

To this day, I still have not hear the response from that. So….

Well, Chicken go Chook :) LOL.
 
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