US scares Europe with ‘mythical’ Russian threat to justify military costs – Russian envoy to NATO

[anon45]

I didn't say we must cut all ties with the US,I just said that our country should have the same warm relations with Russia,just like it has with the US on every levels.
I also say that we should be more independant vis-à-vis the US and participe ourselves in our defence instead of hosting foreign troops in our soil and counting on the US for our defence.
The US is imposing on us to sanction Russia,but it's not going to affect you because you don't have Russia as one of your top trade partner...
Ask the farmers of the European Union what they think about the sanctions against Russia....
We have much to loose making Russia our ennemy.

Ok misunderstood your intent, but the thing is doing so would still lead to a loss of trust with the US, the UK (historically anti-Russian) and obviously Eastern Europe would not be behind you.

Likewise there is no guarantee the rest of Europe would, nor would it have much of a detrimental effect on NATO capability to maintain its forces in the East if France left and decided to get friendly with Russia again.

France rejoining NATO is a relatively recent thing, the French leaders weighed the pros and cons and judged the pros outweighed the cons.


Consequences of being neutral would at the least be a loss of US intelligence assets and agreements and loss of US logistics asset support. For example France would no longer be able to project hard power in North Africa, not unless you spent and maintained a much larger logistics force. Libya proved France wasn't prepared on its own.

Potential inclusions would be ITAR restrictions due to concerns about sharing critical technologies.

How does this balance with whatever benefits being friendly with Russia would have?

You still dont get it. Its a parasitic relationship. We free surf on this wave as long as possible. If your soldiers die for us, im totally fine with this. But not the other way around.

Does our government ask the people? No, we have a populist government and always had. Italy never had a really stable government. They change opinion within days and always try to look what the majority want.

At the moment NATO servs us well. The moment it costs more as it brings we will drop out and may even side with the enemy when we can profit with this.

We are allied with the winning side. The moment you start losing the war you will lose us as well.

We signed a Treaty with no further obligation. Its written on paper.

If russia attacks you and russia starts winning and we side with russia...what will you do? Send your horsefaced queen to bite us?

P.s.: Its spelled Libya.

Nukes? the UK has its own nuclear deterrant you know.

You must be the first person i've seen who is proud of their country being a parasite... anyways its immaterial, even if your country is a parasite leech according to you, its smart enough to give NATO use of its territory in return for its leeching, and Its smart enough to know that it pissing off the US and siding with enemies who declared war on us won't lead to anything good.

http://militarybases.com/italy/

 

[mike2000 is back]

You still dont get it. Its a parasitic relationship. We free surf on this wave as long as possible. If your soldiers die for us, im totally fine with this. But not the other way around.

Does our government ask the people? No, we have a populist government and always had. Italy never had a really stable government. They change opinion within days and always try to look what the majority want.

At the moment NATO servs us well. The moment it costs more as it brings we will drop out and may even side with the enemy when we can profit with this.

We are allied with the winning side. The moment you start losing the war you will lose us as well.

We signed a Treaty with no further obligation. Its written on paper.

If russia attacks you and russia starts winning and we side with russia...what will you do? Send your horsefaced queen to bite us?

P.s.: Its spelled Libya.

Italy doesnt really factor much in NATO grand scheme of things to be honest. Its true that if a big power like France was to leave NATO then NATO might be worried since it will greatly affect NATO's european security, but Italy not as much as France to be honest.
Italy is kind of in a mini Germany predicament. Since it was part of the losing side in WWII being a German ally(junior). However, we the victors all.moved on and. Rehabilitated both Germany and Italy into the european community which servved the continent quite well.

Moreover, im only making factual observations, not an opinion. Unlike you , you are talking about your personal.feelings and opinion. You are not the Italian government bro, so just like my french brother @Vauban said, he is only saying his own personal opinion not his government's position. But you are talking as if you are Italy's government. Lol

Who said Italy will.side with the enemy if europe is attacked? I dony even know what you are on about dude. I'm lost. we are not talking about imaginary dreams. if so I can also say imaginary things like China will invade the U.S and we will side with China. Lol

Your government's actions doesnt represent your personal views bro. They NEVER HAD AND NEVER WILL. If they did, then I dont think your former dictator Mussolini would have allied with Hitler and be on the loser side of WWII in the first place.
Cheer up though, Italy is still a big power as well though, it still more productive than Russia and has a larger GDP/economy than Russia despite Russia's massive oil and gas reserves.

 

[MarkusS]

Ok misunderstood your intent, but the thing is doing so would still lead to a loss of trust with the US, the UK (historically anti-Russian) and obviously Eastern Europe would not be behind you.

Likewise there is no guarantee the rest of Europe would, nor would it have much of a detrimental effect on NATO capability to maintain its forces in the East if France left and decided to get friendly with Russia again.

France rejoining NATO is a relatively recent thing, the French leaders weighed the pros and cons and judged the pros outweighed the cons.


Consequences of being neutral would at the least be a loss of US intelligence assets and agreements and loss of US logistics asset support. For example France would no longer be able to project hard power in North Africa, not unless you spent and maintained a much larger logistics force. Libya proved France wasn't prepared on its own.

Potential inclusions would be ITAR restrictions due to concerns about sharing critical technologies.

How does this balance with whatever benefits being friendly with Russia would have?



Nukes? the UK has its own nuclear deterrant you know.

You must be the first person i've seen who is proud of their country being a parasite... anyways its immaterial, even if your country is a parasite leech according to you, its smart enough to give NATO use of its territory in return for its leeching, and Its smart enough to know that it pissing off the US and siding with enemies who declared war on us won't lead to anything good.

http://militarybases.com/italy/

Your article proves my point exactly. We switched sides easily. Once germany was not winning anymore we dropped out and joined the enemy.

As i said you better entertain us. The moment you start losing...will be the moment we join the other side.

Thats machiavellism my friend. Do you believe we prefer USA over russia? We only care for ourself.

The moment you start losing...we will treat you as we treated our former ally germany.

Nations have no friends. Just interests. We have a solely business relationship amigo. If your country drops dead tomorrow i wouldn´t care as long we dont face any consequences.

You are quite naive to believe in concepts like honor and bullshit like this.

Why are we in NATO?

1. we safe money
2. your soldiers die for our interests
3. it strengthens our position in the world

Once you are unable to fullfill this...you are droped like a hot potato

Italy doesnt really factor much in NATO grand scheme of things to be honest. Its true that if a big power like France was to leave NATO then NATO might be worried since it will greatly affect NATO's european security, but Italy not as much as France to be honest.
Italy is kind of in a mini Germany predicament. Since it was part of the losing side in WWII being a German ally(junior). However, we the victors all.moved on and. Rehabilitated both Germany and Italy into the european community which servved the continent quite well.

Moreover, im only making factual observations, not an opinion. Unlike you , you are talking about your personal.feelings and opinion. You are not the Italian government bro, so just like my french brother @Vauban said, he is only saying his own personal opinion not his government's position. But you are talking as if you are Italy's government. Lol

Who said Italy will.side with the enemy if europe is attacked? I dony even know what you are on about dude. I'm lost. we are not talking about imaginary dreams. if so I can also say imaginary things like China will invade the U.S and we will side with China. Lol

Your government's actions doesnt represent your personal views bro. They NEVER HAD AND NEVER WILL. If they did, then I dont think your former dictator Mussolini would have allied with Hitler and be on the loser side of WWII in the first place.
Cheer up though, Italy is still a big power as well though, it still more productive than Russia and has a larger GDP/economy than Russia despite Russia's massive oil and gas reserves.

What if i tell you that the majority of italians couldn´t care less about the UK.

I mean seriously...do you honestly believe we would fight for something like honour?

I want a great life. If that means we must accept 60 million dead brits...so be it.

And my governments actions prove exactly this. afaik we even warned Gaddafi in the 80th when USA planned an attack. We used our NATO information to warn an NATO enemy. Why? Because our energy corporation ENI got useful contracts

"On 14 April 1986, Andreotti revealed to Libyan Foreign Minister Abdel Rahman Shalgham that the United States would bomb Libya the next day in retaliation for the Berlin disco terrorist attack which had been linked to Libya.[23] As a result of the warning from Italy – a supposed ally of the US – Libya was better prepared for the bombing. "

"According to Giulio Andreotti, Italy's foreign minister at the time (and 42nd Prime Minister of Italy) and Abdel Rahman Shalgham (Libya's Foreign Minister from 2000 until 2009), Craxi was the person who telephoned Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi to warn him of the impending American Operation El Dorado Canyon retaliatory air-strikes against Libya on 15 April 1986. This permitted Gaddafi and his family to evacuate their residence in the Bab al-Azizia compound moments before the bombs dropped.[4] Shalgham's statement was also confirmed by Margherita Boniver, foreign affairs chief of Craxi's Socialist Party at the time.[5]"

We aren´t allied buddy. We have a business relationship and you better hold us entertained.

Tell me a reason why we should still side with you when its obvious that we are on the losing side?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I am impressed by the remarkable honesty being aired in this thread. The truth is that if Russians were to attack the real fighting would be done by USA followed by UK. Without US providing the spear there would be not much in the way of deterance. The US/UK alliance provides the anchor. The rest follow in the wake. A good study in the dynamics of any conflict in Europe is the NATO actions in the former Yugoslavia.

Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deliberate_Force

Ps. France is vital although at times it can appear to act diificult or insist on doing things it's way. This is carry on from Charles De Gaulle's difficult relationship with his allies.

 

[Vergennes]

Ps. France is vital although at times it can appear to act diificult or insist on doing things it's way. This is carry on from Charles De Gaulle's difficult relationship with his allies.

Even if in response we get 'freedom fries' 'lel surrendering monkeys'.

 

[anon45]

Your article proves my point exactly. We switched sides easily. Once germany was not winning anymore we dropped out and joined the enemy.

As i said you better entertain us. The moment you start losing...will be the moment we join the other side.

Thats machiavellism my friend. Do you believe we prefer USA over russia? We only care for ourself.

The moment you start losing...we will treat you as we treated our former ally germany.

Nations have no friends. Just interests. We have a solely business relationship amigo. If your country drops dead tomorrow i wouldn´t care as long we dont face any consequences.

You are quite naive to believe in concepts like honor and bullshit like this.

Why are we in NATO?

1. we safe money
2. your soldiers die for our interests
3. it strengthens our position in the world

Once you are unable to fullfill this...you are droped like a hot potato

lol what Italian interests are we fighting for that aren't our own? We do make up the majority of deployable NATO forces but your country is sending its tribute (it must be tribute since you don't see common interest) of soldiers, both to Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://icasualties.org/oef/Nationality.aspx?hndQry=Italy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_casualties_in_Afghanistan#Italian
Anyways choose your time of betrayal wisely then, because if you miscalculate and betray too quickly you will regret it.

Until that point your country will serve for NATO bases at the very least.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And I dont find @MarkusS views necessarily dishonourable as I don't think that word quite gels within the frame of discussion here. I would call it staying "flexible". This flexibility was demonstrated in WW2 by Italy. Within the present order and well into this century US supremacy (especially within Europe) is a given and as was pointed out by our esteemed muscular member here Italy knows in which direction the wind blows.

In fact the Italians have cut nice deal. Live in style and let others take the strain.

Even if in response we get 'freedom fries' 'lel surrendering monkeys'.

Bit of light hearted fun never hurt anybody. I still remember when Foxy Bill O'Reilly launched a tirade on France during the Iraq war for opposing US. The subject of attack? French fries!!!

Thus was born "Freedom Fries".

 

[MarkusS]

lol what Italian interests are we fighting for that aren't our own? We do make up the majority of deployable NATO forces but your country is sending its tribute (it must be tribute since you don't see common interest) of soldiers, both to Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://icasualties.org/oef/Nationality.aspx?hndQry=Italy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_casualties_in_Afghanistan#Italian
Anyways choose your time of betrayal wisely then, because if you miscalculate and betray too quickly you will regret it.

Until that point your country will serve for NATO bases at the very least.

The point must always be chosen wisely. At the moment we profit very much from your army. The day your nation dies we might be the one who give the last push.

As i said, its pure math. At the moment we profit from you- The day you get obsolete we will switch sides.

And i´m relative sure that a stronger enemy would value our insider knowledge of NATO. If we must decide between allieing with the enemy or downfall with you...you know what we would do.

 

[Nattmara]

The day your nation dies we might be the one who give the last push.

That'll be a fun day indeed.

 

[Jlaw]

Lool you are funny my good friend Markus. Since when does your opinion or that of an individual determines your country's foreign policy? Lool
You think the U.S and British government asked U.S,U.K civilians before going to war in Afghanistan, Iraq,Lybia?lool Your opinion and mine dont count one bit unfortunately.
Its only our leaders and politicians who determine our countrys foreign policy.
So yes any attack on a NATO member will trigger a war with all of NATO make no mistake about that. Its no surprise that NO SINGLE COUNTRY HAS EVER DARED INVADE/LAUNCHED AN ATTACK AGAINST ANY NATO MEMBER, NOT EVEN THE U.S.S.R at its superpower peak, much less now weakened Russia.

If the government doesn't listen to the voice of the people, than what good it is to have a democratic government?

 

[waz]

Several things here.
- Myself personally, and I'm sure most of our British folk believe in backing NATO to the hilt. It represents an incredibly important part of our history and something that shouldn't be taken lightly.
-As for the Russian threat. I didn't like the whole stirring going in in Ukraine. When the whole "revolution" was going on and the media played out the scenes in Central square, it just felt like a re-run of failed adventures that I remember growing up with in the 80's. The country is too complex to be involved with, especially considering its Eastern part is populated by ethnic Russians. Just help the peace process along, and everyone gets a fair deal, none of this "closer ties to Europe", the Dutch were right about this.
-It is important that Eastern and Central European states know they have backing and they shouldn't be intimidated.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Your article proves my point exactly. We switched sides easily. Once germany was not winning anymore we dropped out and joined the enemy.

As i said you better entertain us. The moment you start losing...will be the moment we join the other side.

Thats machiavellism my friend. Do you believe we prefer USA over russia? We only care for ourself.

The moment you start losing...we will treat you as we treated our former ally germany.

Nations have no friends. Just interests. We have a solely business relationship amigo. If your country drops dead tomorrow i wouldn´t care as long we dont face any consequences.

You are quite naive to believe in concepts like honor and bullshit like this.

Why are we in NATO?

1. we safe money
2. your soldiers die for our interests
3. it strengthens our position in the world

Once you are unable to fullfill this...you are droped like a hot potato



What if i tell you that the majority of italians couldn´t care less about the UK.

I mean seriously...do you honestly believe we would fight for something like honour?

I want a great life. If that means we must accept 60 million dead brits...so be it.

And my governments actions prove exactly this. afaik we even warned Gaddafi in the 80th when USA planned an attack. We used our NATO information to warn an NATO enemy. Why? Because our energy corporation ENI got useful contracts

"On 14 April 1986, Andreotti revealed to Libyan Foreign Minister Abdel Rahman Shalgham that the United States would bomb Libya the next day in retaliation for the Berlin disco terrorist attack which had been linked to Libya.[23] As a result of the warning from Italy – a supposed ally of the US – Libya was better prepared for the bombing. "

"According to Giulio Andreotti, Italy's foreign minister at the time (and 42nd Prime Minister of Italy) and Abdel Rahman Shalgham (Libya's Foreign Minister from 2000 until 2009), Craxi was the person who telephoned Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi to warn him of the impending American Operation El Dorado Canyon retaliatory air-strikes against Libya on 15 April 1986. This permitted Gaddafi and his family to evacuate their residence in the Bab al-Azizia compound moments before the bombs dropped.[4] Shalgham's statement was also confirmed by Margherita Boniver, foreign affairs chief of Craxi's Socialist Party at the time.[5]"

We aren´t allied buddy. We have a business relationship and you better hold us entertained.

Tell me a reason why we should still side with you when its obvious that we are on the losing side?

Seems you are just blabbering bro. Calm down, ut was nothing personal. It was just a factual observation, not an opinion. You are not the Italian government as I said before. Any decision italy takes will be made by the prime minister and cabinet members not you or some civilians , that's the way it is unfortunately.
Dont take it personal.

Several things here.
- Myself personally, and I'm sure most of our British folk believe in backing NATO to the hilt. It represents an incredibly important part of our history and something that shouldn't be taken lightly.
-As for the Russian threat. I didn't like the whole stirring going in in Ukraine. When the whole "revolution" was going on and the media played out the scenes in Central square, it just felt like a re-run of failed adventures that I remember growing up with in the 80's. The country is too complex to be involved with, especially considering its Eastern part is populated by ethnic Russians. Just help the peace process along, and everyone gets a fair deal, none of this "closer ties to Europe", the Dutch were right about this.
-It is important that Eastern and Central European states know they have backing and they shouldn't be intimidated.

Agree, I find it funny that some people think they can have their cake and eat it. Lol if you dont agree with NATO's treaty bound agreement of an attack against one is an attack on all, then its simple LEAVE NATO, nobody is forcing any country to remain part of NATO.
Its because all these countries know its in their interests to remain part of NATO. They are not doing anybody any favours.
So any country is free to test our resolve by attacking/invading a NATO country. History shows the implication for doing so will be catastrophic and other enemy countries know this, reason NO NATO MEMBER COUNTRY HAS EVER BEEN ATTACKED.

 

[MarkusS]

Seems you are just blabbering bro. Calm down, ut was nothing personal. It was just a factual observation, not an opinion. You are not the Italian government as I said before. Any decision italy takes will be made by the prime minister and cabinet members not you or some civilians , that's the way it is unfortunately.
Dont take it personal.

You mean by the mafia, conglomerates and the church. Our politicians are completly powerless and get replaced inw eeks when needed. We never have a stable government.

You dont know italy.

And you certainly dont know how diplomatic ideals work.

You think we follow you to doom`If NATO is losing, we leave. Its that easy.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

No.As i've said,that is impossible and find the claim ridiculous,probaly spread by pro Russia propaganda.



When you buy something you also consider geopolitical circumstances.Sweden,a military non alligned country who can easily be strong armed in a conflict by Russia not to provide spares vs US,the biggest NATO country who also deploys troops in Romania.Not a hard one to pick.



Ukraine fiasco demonstrated that Western countries are not serious in confronting the Russian threat.Good luck in cooperating with Russia and them treating you as partners which they'll do...up to a point where it suits them.

You will be able to get spares from Brazil, once they are up,and running.
One would think that Romania is invaded long before Sweden is considered.

 

[Nattmara]

One would think that Romania is invaded long before Sweden is considered.

Yes, yes. Good.

They don't suspect a thing.