US responsible for the Murder of Pakistani Troops - Pak Rejects NATO Probe

[Xeric]

Even if Pakistan troops fired first, the fault still lies with the US/NATO because:

1. Pakistan was not informed of US/NATO operations in the area, and given the timing of the operation (late night), Pakistani troops cannot be blamed for firing (if they did) at suspected militants

2. NATO/US troops on the ground (or the planners of that particular operation) were incompetent to the point that they did not realize the presence of two Pakistani posts whose location had been communicated to ISAF

3. NATO/US coordinators for the ground troops and/or air-strikes were incompetent to the point that they did not realize that they were directing air-strikes onto two Pakistani positions whose location had been communicated to ISAF

4. NATO/US ground troops/coordinaters violated ROE and called in air-strikes on Pakistani territory, when they should have FIRST checked with the Pakistani liaison officers to verify the presence of Pakistani troops in the area

5. NATO/US troops were incompetent to the point that after violating ROE and the proper process of communicating with Pakistani military authorities, they provided the wrong coordinates to Pakistan and continued the air-strikes.

That last part about the wrong coordinates is extremely puzzling - how could the air-strikes be called in on the correct coordinates, but the incorrect coordinates be provided to the Pakistani authorities?

The format of delivering battle orders (verbal or written) is standard the world over. It follows a 5 paragraph format, the two sub paras of first heading is:

1. Enemy Forces

2.Own/Friendly Forces

The "Own/Friendly Forces" para is there for a particular reason; to avoid blue over blue, and in case one requires assistance during a battle, so one knows where he can get it from at the earliest.

Bloody yankees WTF have you been doing during your training sessions (other nibbling on McMeals and Dunkins)?

So it's a basic thing that before going into an operation, the location of friendly forces is told to every participant, but it looks like as if either the location of Pakistani posts in the vicinity of the AOO (area of operation) was not told deliberately or the yankees are fcuking incompetent trigger happy *********!!!

The only escape now is to accept either of the above!

---------- Post added at 11:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 PM ----------



Found the detailed orders: Five paragraph order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I. Situation

A. Enemy Forces
Enemy's Composition, Disposition, StrengthSALUTE) Size, Activity, Location, Unit, Time observed, Equipment
Enemy's Capabilities & Limitations
Enemy's Most Likely Course Of Action (EMLCOA)DRAW-DG) Defend, Reinforce, Attack, Withdraw, Delay, Gas
B. Friendly Forces
Higher's Mission & Intent
Adjacent Units
North/South/East/West
Same Echelon
Supporting
C. Attachments/Detachment

II. Mission
Who, What, Where, When, and (most importantly) Why?

III. Execution

A. Commander's Intent
Center of Gravity
Critical Vulnerability
Exploitation Plan
Desired Endstate
B. Concept of the Operations
Scheme of Maneuver
Fire Support Plan
C. Tasks
D. Coordinating Instructions

IV. Administration/Logistics (Sustainment in the Army version)

A. Administration - "Bad Guys & Bandages": EPW & Casevac Plans
B. Logistics - "Beans, Bullets, & Batteries": Chow, Ammo, Supply, Comms, Pyro, etc.

V. Command/Signal (Command and Control in the Army version)

A. Signal
Primary
Secondary
B. Command
Location of Key Leaders
Succession of Command

 

[regular]

from the investigations of US/NATO it is clear that Pakistan do have responsibility of the attack too cuz they were expecting PAF to showup if Pak-Army was under attack. Since PAF didn't showup to do their job so they judged that the insurgents are under attack(cuz insurgents don't have Airforce) and hence they kept on firing at our Army posts....The job of the PAF is to showup whenever Pakistans airspace is violated....As the PAF didn't showup they thought they never violated our airspace.....instead they thought its the insurgents area or posts.....I guess this explanation is good for Mr. VCheng as well as US/NATO's satisfaction......I guess we shold put everything on our PAF to make our enemies happi.Its very sad that we ourselves gave the opportunity to our enemies US/NATO to carry out brutal attack on our innocent soldiers inspite of having the worlds greatest/best Airforce.the answer of our Air Chief is that we never got message in time to engage due to communication problems.It is quite clear that US/NATO will never accept that they delibrately killed our innocent soldierz nomatter what...Next time we sholdn't let them/evilz spill our pplz innocent blood.

 

[lem34]

Right .
So this is the thorough investigation that took almost 1 month to finish .

Well lets see what we found out .

Day 1.
Pakistan = Attack was NATO's fault
NATO= We are investigating but it was in self defence


1 Month later

Pakistan = It is NATO's Fault
NATO(after thorough investigation) = It was in self defense


Great Investigation , Good result. who knew NATO/US can be this professional .

its a tragedy that we have the deaths of 26 soldiers but americans I think really dont know whether they are coming or going and are truely on the backfoot

 

[lem34]

How can Pakistan say no to a second country opening consulates in a third country??

easy when the consulates are being opened to undermine pakistan. I dont see any other country than india opening up 5 consulates do you? What you lot getting tourists from there are you? you have less consulates in countries with 10 x the population of afghanistan. anyway our isi knows afghanis better than you and you and americans know it and afghanis know us. You are just being allowed a look in by an invader with a puppet regime.

---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

Third party ? now is it another story ?
BTW US report is totally opposite to ground realities . they did mistakes in a sequence and that is most suspicious thing . they break every Protocol that night

third party bongiman get a grip of yourself man. it went on for two hours even after PA army confirmed its men were under atatck

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------

That was a BBC brain-fart, and was almost immediately denied by the Pakistani Military.

Perhaps a 'plant' by the US to see if the 'RAW & Afghan Conspiracy' might gain traction in Pakistan and therefore hide their own culpability.

The US has no qualms about throwing anyone 'under the bus'.

i noticed that too in fact am surprised they didnt run with that one

 

[cyphercide]

Let this not end up as an exercise in futility,that would be the biggest insult to the martyred soldiers.The objective mustn't be to level revenge but to teach and assign accountability.What has transpired is that the American forces has siphoned off every liberty of sovereign nation of Pakistan while clinging on to plausible deniability on every incident.When a similar body count is assigned to a drone strike in Pakistan on suspected extremists with no forthcoming evidence,let there be the same outrage and swift response as when it is with uniformed men of the soil.

 

[longbrained]

Here is what I found:

If an aircraft violates or is on a trajectory that will violate Restricted or Prohibited airspace, it will be warned of military interception on 121.5 MHz. Aircraft emergency frequency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[lem34]

but our sweet army guys sitting in AC thought it was the civilian to be bombed, they had no idea, the nato was soon gonna spank them

Guys our soldiers were told until recently that american nato forces are freindly.

 

[Haseebullah]

The report says the 150-man U.S.-Afghan commando team came under attack from positions along a ridgeline. They requested a show of force by an F-15 fighter jet and AC-130 gunship, which launched warning flares toward the positions high above the commandos, the report concludes.

The ground forces asked NATO for a report on the area. "We are not tracking any pak mil in the area," they were told in a radio transmission. The ground forces took that to mean there was no Pakistani military there, according to a military official familiar with the report.

That assessment was then typed into a electronic "chat room" that was following the firefight, causing U.S. officials to temporarily stop asking the Pakistani military whether they had forces in the area, the official said.

A second error came later in the firefight, when a U.S. military service member in eastern Afghanistan gave general coordinates for the fight to Pakistani representatives in a border-control center, which is also staffed by NATO and Afghan officials. The U.S. military in eastern Afghanistan had a practice of providing the Pakistanis with general, not specific, locations.

The U.S. report found that the U.S.-Afghan commando team on the ground reported the correct coordinates to their supervisors. Those coordinates were accurately relayed to the helicopters that conducted the strikes.

But according to the new U.S. account, a serviceman talking to the border-control center, attempting to make the coordinates more specific for the Pakistanis by pairing them with a map of the political border, applied an incorrect electronic overlay on his computer. That led the Pakistanis to conclude that the fight was about 9 miles from its true location.

That generally matches the account of Pakistani officials, who say their representative at the border center repeatedly told his NATO counterparts that their information was incomplete or inaccurate, and told them that he needed more detailed information before he could verify whether Pakistani troops were in the area.

Viewing the incorrect information, the representative couldn't tell that the U.S. helicopters were firing on Pakistani troops.

Bucket full of bullcrap!
Bottom line: they were trying to get some agency agents and militants into Pakistan by distracting(read attacking) the pakistani troops watching over that part of the border.
second theorythis theory is a little far fetched so yes some people calling them selves sane might not like it)
This attack was a CIA operation to hinder the US pullout from Afghanistan because CIA wants to maintain it's presence there to maintain their int competition in the region.Here is something to chew on:US to stay in Afghanistan

 

[foxbat]

That was a BBC brain-fart, and was almost immediately denied by the Pakistani Military.

Perhaps a 'plant' by the US to see if the 'RAW & Afghan Conspiracy' might gain traction in Pakistan and therefore hide their own culpability.

The US has no qualms about throwing anyone 'under the bus'.

It was not impossible, but not the kind of ops RAW normally is associated with.. I also thought of that as a face save being manufactured by NATO for Pakistan to blame India and open the supply routes for NATO...

 

[Meengla]

History has portrayed a picture of the USA removing liability and responsibility of their faults and mismanagement of wars – look at Iraq recently and continue looking back at Vietnam etc.

Yes.
People like @VCheng and a bunch of other sympathetic (lately, a lot of Indians in this forum) to the American Military Industrial Complex have no answer to the ubiquitous American military bases around the world, the proverbial $500 hammers, the career-ism of the willing uniformed brass, the war-profiteering of the corporations. To them--it does not matter if America is involved in so many overt and covert wars/coups since 1890's alone--that's a long list. There is always an explanation. There is always the Manifest Destiny. These apologists for the war-criminals deny and deprive ordinary Americans themselves of America's potentially limitless bounties.

Back to the topic: To me, perhaps, the first few minutes of the 'air support' could have been explained-away as 'mistake'. But not two hours of sustained strikes. Well...while I still don't think that America gains anything by frontally attacking Pakistani soldiers--my response was/is is human error (or some gung-ho kids too hyped up from shooting down 'enemies' in video games)--I think NATO has given Pakistan perfect excuse to milk the situation to the fullest.
NATO = Stupid!!!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

To make it easier for these buggers to understand here's how and Apache sees it during the night. (Note; the quality is not optimal in this vid, the original vid is much much clearer.):

Apache Night Division Attack - YouTube

FLIR turns night into day. Given that they had the coords the attack was inexcusable. They know this and we know this, any shytehead with 30% brain capacity would know this


actually apart from local commander scape goating; they are also claiming that a mass weapons cache was found on a ridge approx 150m below from Salala post.....as if to imply that the men were providing cover fire to insurgents.


and of course they will do that as it is part of their character to do that; of course they will also naiively allow themselves to be befooled by the local commander; now they will blame a blatant hostile act of aggression and attribute to "lack of cooperation" between the two -conveniently forgetting that pathetic incidents like this CAUSED such lack in cooperation (this is the 3rd time a blue-on-blue engagement took place against our troops)


anger against NATO occupation forces is justifiable. I'm surprised to not see more outrage against the ****** Panjsheri army. They are a hostile entity, the NDS is a hostile entity. Sooner or later, Pakistan will have to take proper and effective action against them. Especially in a post-NATO environment.

 

[Jango]

Just being the devil's advocate here, but wasn't it obvious to the Pakistani soldiers that the choppers belonged to NATO/ISAF? Did they think that TTP was coming in those choppers?

When you have AC-130's, Apaches, and F-15 eagles in the area pounding the posts, you should know better not to mess up chart readings and have confusion.

 

[Jango]

BTW, ISPR has rubbished this investigation saying that it does not give out certain facts which have been withheld. And it will give a reply after the official documented reply has been given.

The pilot and ground commander must have had acute schizophrenia , to mess up like this.

 

[Jango]

Why the hell did a ground commander call in a strike into pakistan territory in the first place, without informing the liaison centres.

Coordinates were messed up by the Yanks, just goes to show how professional they are!

Giving different readings to Pak, Base HQ and the pilots.

 

[Jango]

Well, nothing really new or substantial here then eh?

You have your report Mr. VCheng, or was it the NATO one which will tell the truth?