US offers its latest fighter to India

[gogbot]

I don't how often we can call an aircraft a STOVL one. The vertical landing part is useful only when the aircraft is not fully loaded. Weight is factor for such aircraft.

oh come on, if they could use the HArrier jumjets, they can in principle use the F-35.

If it is feasible why would they not may minor modifications to make it usable.

 

[DeathGod]

oh come on, if they could use the HArrier jumjets, they can in principle use the F-35.

If it is feasible why would they not may minor modifications to make it usable.

I would like to ask a question here:

Which carrier configuration has the capacity to launch and recover aircrafts faster ?( CATOBAR or VTOL ) . What I think is that the turn around time for VTOL aircrafts is larger than those operating in the CATOBAR configuration .( my logic being the VTOL is hard to execute and takes time.)

 

[gogbot]

I would like to ask a question here:

Which carrier configuration has the capacity to launch and recover aircrafts faster ?( CATOBAR or VTOL ) . What I think is that the turn around time for VTOL aircrafts is larger than those operating in the CATOBAR configuration .( my logic being the VTOL is hard to execute and takes time.)

The sea Harrier is the only widely used VTOL carrier aircraft.

No one knows how the F-35 II will be at operating on a STOVL carrier

But the India pilots always say Landing a Harrier on the Virrat at night is the most harrowing experience in their career. They have to keep pace with the carrier while descending. and wind blowing on the jet only complicates matters.

as a first generation VTOL aircraft the Harrier had many flaws, the major being the difficult of controlling the aircraft in hover mode.

The F-35 in comparison is extremely computerized, so one would assume it is far simpler for the pilot to control.

In comparison Planes using the STOBAR or CATOBAR configuration
only need to land as they would on a short runway aiming to hook onto one of the 3 arrestor wires to slow them down.

IF they miss they hit the throttle take of and go again.

Since the F-35 C(not vtol) can only operate on a CATOBAR carrier.

It cant be fielded to take of from STOBAR carrier of which India plans to have at least 2.

But F-35 B(vtol) can take of with the assistance of the SKi jump and vtol systems and then land with the aid of its VTOL capabbility.

Most likely based on the IAC-2 design change there the IAF will consider getting F-35C II primarily, if chosen. However they may also place orders for the B version so that it can operate on STOBAR carrier that are not compatible with the C version.

 

[sancho]

You see there is a flaw in your understanding. Carrier are not designed for arresor hook landing but with arrestor hooks to land.

A STOVOL aircraft like the F-35 B can land vertically with out the need for hooks.. and can also take of vertically

So essentially its capable of operating on any carrier.

Again Vikrant class is designed with an angled deck and arrested landing system, for fighters with hooks. I know that F35B still can land on this deck, but the whole deck layout will be a waste and we could have gone with an easier and cheaper layout (similar to INS Viraat) from the beginning!

The N-FGFA is a long way of, we wont hear anything about it until the Induction is underway in both Russia and India.

FGFA is expected around the time this carrier should come (2017/18) a naval version should need not need way more time right? So the possibility of N-FGFA can't be ruled out so easy and don't forget that Russia already plans with a naval Pak Fa on their new carriers.

 

[DeathGod]

FGFA is expected around the time this carrier should come (2017/18) a naval version should need not need way more time right? So the possibility of N-FGFA can't be ruled out so easy and don't forget that Russia already plans with a naval Pak Fa on their new carriers.

I beg to differ. First of all we must keep in mind that the requirements of FGFA are very stringent for ex: supercruise. Now the engines that are applied to achieve this objective will not be suitable for carriers as per my limited knowledge. Secondly the weight and dimensions of the craft are unknown which may or maynot suffice for carrier operations.One needs a very specialized or should i say a heavily customised aircraft for carrier operations.

FGFA cant be converted to N-FGFA until they build FGFA keeping in mind the need for the naval version.(This is a farcry as I think they better concentrate on getting a gud 5th gen plane in the air and later about commonality and other things)

 

[gogbot]

Again Vikrant class is designed with an angled deck and arrested landing system, for fighters with hooks. I know that F35B still can land on this deck, but the whole deck layout will be a waste and we could have gone with an easier and cheaper layout (similar to INS Viraat) from the beginning!

For the sake of science, why must you argue the obious.

the STOBAR carriers were built for a doctrine we no longer wish to apply. they were intended to be fielding the N-LCA and Mig-29K.

Now we cant just turn around and go no we dont want STOBAR anymore, both carriers are in their final phase of construction.

So the navy has two STOBAR carriers with MIg-29's and N-LCA's not so bad. But we now have more aircraft options.

And the only aircraft that are compatible with the STOBAR is the F-35B which has a very limited payload. But its still a stealth aircraft which is what matters.

we can easily choose to put a squadron on each carrier

Because we are trying to make the best of what we have.

You have 2 STOBAR carriers with only one compatible Aircraft the F-35B, unless you would we get more Mig-29's instead.

So tell me since the F-35C is only comaptible with the CATOBAR carriers.


How will we use them on the STOABR carriers.
Unless we also get the B version for those carriers.

and finally how can we build STOVL carriers if we didn't know the Americans would one day offer us the F-35.

STOBAR operates Russian aircraft, that's why we got STOBAR.
But we have more options now. So we are making a CATOBAR carrier, but we also still have 2 STOBAR carriers that are only as good as the Planes they have. So why the hell not get the F-35 B so that The STOBAR carriers also have a stealth Fighter squadron. Making them more lethal.

FGFA is expected around the time this carrier should come (2017/18) a naval version should need not need way more time right? So the possibility of N-FGFA can't be ruled out so easy and don't forget that Russia already plans with a naval Pak Fa on their new carriers.

Dude the navy will have by 2018

2 STOBAR carriers

1 or 2 CATOBAR carrier

Carriers need aircraft to be aircraft carriers. what are they going to use on them.

The navy needs a new plane by 2018. for the CATOBAR carriers

N-FGFA will not be available if even available till at best 2022.

 

[Hulk]

I am not even sure, if the offer exists.

 

[gogbot]

I am not even sure, if the offer exists.

The indian NAvy has issued an RFI for the F-35 themselves.

After talking with US representative last year. where the IN addimeted it express interest

remember a while ago last year IN sent out RFI for multiple carrier borne aircraft.

which included F-35, F-18 SH, Rafael C, Eurofighter-N

 

[mijanur]

guys let me make one of opinion,,,,plz dont start fighting
USA is the biggest player of earth, they give weapons to india and pakistan...they only like other countires to fight with each others....they hate every country (well thats what i think)

 

[sancho]

the STOBAR carriers were built for a doctrine we no longer wish to apply.

Sorry, but that is simply wrong!

Concerning the 2 stobar carriers, no doctrine has changed in any way and that's exactly where you went wrong!
For Gorshkov 16 Mig 29K and 6 N-LCA are already on order, for IAC 1 that should arrive in 2014 (at least 3 years before any F35 will be available), IN and MoD are already in talks for around 30 more Mig 29Ks. Livefist reported this week that the deal is already cleared, although no source was provided (check the Indian Navy News thread and you will find the link).

So do you really think they will pay millions of dollars for around 45 Mig 29K and just after 3-4 years in use, when F35 might be available, they will scrap them?
As I said before, the new RFI where F35 is participating is meant only for the new and bigger carriers that might arrive in 2017/18.

Among the five aircraft for which the Indian Navy has sent Requests for Information (RFI) are the F-18 Superhornet (made by Boeing for the US Navy), Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS supported by a European consortium) and France’s Dassault Aviation for the Rafale.

The Indian Navy had originally not sent an RFI to Sweden’s SAAB but the company expressed interest and was sent a request for the naval variant of the Gripen JAS 39.

The Superhornet, Eurofighter, Rafale and the Gripen are among six aircraft (the other two being the F-16 Super Viper and the MiG 35) contending for the biggest fighter aircraft competition going in the world today — the Indian Air Force’s order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft that could be worth more than $12 billion.

The Indian Navy’s overt interest in the F-35C Lightning II is a bit of a surprise. The F-35C is the US Navy variant of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme being implemented by Lockheed Martin and is known in the aviation industry as the only fifth-generation aircraft...
...The navy officer said the plan was to raise a squadron (between 16 and 20 aircraft) for the aircraft carrier that India is building on its own in Kochi (called IAC for Indigenous Aircraft Carrier). The IAC will be at least eight years in the making (2018).

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Deck not ready yet, navy scouts for aircraft

So once again, F35B is not needed!

Btw:

STOBAR operates Russian aircraft, that's why we got STOBAR.

that's also wrong, because it has nothing to do with Russian aircrafts. As far as I know nearly any fighter that has a good t/w ratio, strenghtend airframe and front gear, plus a hook, should be able to be used from such a carrier. IN asked Boeing for F18SH to be used from Gorshkov and the only doubt Boeing had, was the length of the deck for take offs (F18SH are pretty heavy), Rafale was evaluated too.
Also UK was about to go for a stobar config on their new carriers and wanted to use a naval version of the EF, that is why the RFI was send to the EF consortium too, because they had plans for such a version before. The Gripen NG wasn't planed as a carrier fighter, nor has Saab any experience in making fighters carrier capable, that's why they were left out, but later they expressed interest on their own. Even India and China are planing naval versions of LCA and J10 to be used from stobar carriers.

 

[sancho]

Is LM offering something that the US Navy don't want anymore?

JSF - Navy Ready To Abandon Ship?

The Navy is not happy with the new joint-service fighter. It's gained weight during development, but more importantly, the Navy isn't sure that the capabilities it provides are what they want to spend more money on. It's tempting to scrap it and go with an alternative, from a company with recent carrier-jet experience....

...that - over the lifetime of the fleet - the carrier-based and STOVL JSF versions will cost the Navy 40 per cent more, in total operating costs, than the F/A-18C/Ds and AV-8Bs that they replace. (The older aircraft costs are taken from FY2008 and include a lot of aging-aircraft issues.) This is despite a smaller fleet and fewer flight hours: the new aircraft are expected to cost more than 60 per cent more to fly per hour than their predecessors.

The Navy report suggests that the total cost of the Pentagon's JSF program will be $705 billion in FY2002 dollars, just over twice the figure predicted at the program's inception...

Ares Homepage

Another source:

USN officials raise concern about F-35 affordability

The US Naval Air Systems Command's top cost estimator has warned in a new internal briefing obtained by Flight International that the Lockheed Martin F-35B/C variants are getting harder to afford...

...According to NAVAIR's cost department, the F-35's total ownership costs, including development, production and sustainment, has doubled to $704 billion since Lockheed won the contract eight years ago.
Moreover, NAVAIR estimates the total of 680 short take-off and vertical landing F-35Bs and carrier-variant F-35Cs, ordered by the US Marine Corps and USN, respectively, will cost $30,700 to fly each hour. This compares to $18,900 for the Boeing AV-8B Harrier II and Boeing F/A-18A-D, the aircraft types the Joint Strike Fighter will replace.
Although NAVAIR projects the F-35 will fly 12% fewer flight hours than the AV-8B and F/A-18A-D fleets, the agency expects the modern aircraft to cost as much as about 25% more to operate at peak rates, the briefing says.
The unexpected cost increases mean the F-35 "will have a significant impact on naval aviation affordability", the NAVAIR document concludes...

USN officials raise concern about F-35 affordability