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US misunderstandings & arrogance over WOT

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US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations: Hearings - Al Qaeda, the Taliban & Other Extremist Groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan

Here are a few links from the Senate hearing that I want to focus on:



Please watch the 2 youtube links before reading the content below:

Wahabi/Salafi/Ahle-Hadith are the same thing. In the first link, from 2:10-2:15, Christine Fair, a well-known journalist (who also works for a prominent think tank here in America) who has a big say in Pakistan issues related to the WOT claims that the local splinter groups such as the LeJ, HuM, TTP are Deobandi, & are ideologically the closest to Al-Qaeda, a Wahabi/Salafi group. This is totally incorrect. Wahabism/Salafism/Ahle-Hadith fall under the school of Hanbali thought, one of the four schools of Sunni Islam. The Deobandis (as are the Barelvis) belong to the Hanafi school of thought, which is different from the Hanbali school of thought. So she is completely wrong there.

Christine Fair first claims that Al-Qaeda are Wahabi, & the LeT are Ahle-Hadith; & that Al-Qaeda is a threat to Pakistan but LeT isn't; insinuating Wahabis/Ahle-Hadith are different, even though they are ideologically the same. She tries to claim that all splinter Deobandi groups are a threat to Pakistan, as they are ideologically closely related to Wahabi Al-Qaeda: both of these statements are false. Firstly, not all Deobandi groups are a threat to the state of Pakistan, although almost all Deobandi groups threaten the Shias, Barelvi Sunnis, Ahmedi citizens etc; but they are not a threat to the government of Pakistan. In fact, most of these local splinter Deobandi groups that aid the LeT in Kashmir, & the Taliban & the Al-Qaeda & its affiliates in Afghanistan are not a direct threat to the Pakistani establishment.

She is claiming in this Senate hearing that the Pakistani ISI as an institution was responsible for supporting the LeT to carry out the Mumbai attacks. Even David Headley does not agree with her. Even top US officials on the ground have admitted before that the Pakistani establishment has broken ties with the LeT. It is the local splinter Punjab Taliban & other Pashtun groups that are supporting the LeT inside India. Christine Fair's thinking that the ISI still uses the LeT is simply false. Christine Fair thinks that the Pakistan establishment will not let ties with LeT break is because they use the LeT to indoctrinate local 'violent' Deobandi groups into 'peaceful' Ahle-Hadith groups is not only false, but also contradictory to the fact that the Al-Qaeda are Ahle-Hadith, & the biggest threat to the nation of Pakistan.
 
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This thread is not about Pakistan & the ISI's policies in the region, but the shortcomings of the US think tanks & the lack of understanding on their part to decipher the endgame in Afghanistan, which has seriously impeded their ability in achieving their goals in the region.

Christine Fair's statements are as bad, if not worse than the conspiracy theories of people like Zaid Hamid in Pakistan. The difference being that Zaid Hamid's opinions do not formulate the foreign policies of Pakistan, but Christine Fair is an influential figure, & speaking at the Senate hearings as a guest speaker represents that she has influence over US Foreign Policy. This is not some random hearing she was speaking at, it was a Senate hearing. Yet, she has such holes & lack of understandings in her assessments, it is no wonder why the US cannot figure out the end game in Afghanistan. The US at first was hell bent on fighting the Taliban, & killing all of them a few years ago, but Pakistan asked them to negotiate. They refused to negotiate at the time. But now, ten years later, they finally figure out that they really didn't understand the situation in the region before, & that it is too complex to handle, & are now ready to negotiate. But on the point of negotiations: the US doesn't know who to negotiate with in the Taliban, as Mullah Umar has not been seen by people in years. They have been scammed twice by people who lied about having close ties to Mullah Umar. The ISI, notorious as they are, have a clear understanding of what is really going on in the region, the US really doesn't. While the US military operations have brought about a certain amount of success (as well as a lot of failures), the US think tanks have failed badly at understanding the situation in the region, which have really proved to be the biggest impediment in the WOT for the West.
 
I would request members that have no idea about the delicacies of this subject to refrain from commenting, trolling & diverting this thread. Appreciate it.
 
wahabi are the sect who rejected shrine worship under the leadership of lmam abdul wahaab saqafee....Its not a fiqah...they can be from any fiqah but usually from maalkii/hambalee.
Ahl e hadith is a different thing......unlike the rest of the muslims who follow an imam for interpretation of shariah...such as imam abu hanifa or iman maalik or any other. Ihl e hadith simply dont follow any imam..they read sahi bukhari/ sahi muslim and from pure hadith deduce their own interpretation without knowing much detail about the hadith.....same for quran..
Deobandi and Barailwii movements are fairly recent...from 1800s...unlike the wahabi movement which is from 7th century.
but deobandi movement is similar to wahabi movement..its not about what fiqah you follow..its about mazaars or shrines.....Deobandi was anti shrines....Barailwee (maulana Ahmed Raza Khan Barailwee) was pro shrines...
 
wahabi are the sect who rejected shrine worship under the leadership of lmam abdul wahaab saqafee....Its not a fiqah...they can be from any fiqah but usually from maalkii/hambalee.
Ahl e hadith is a different thing......unlike the rest of the muslims who follow an imam for interpretation of shariah...such as imam abu hanifa or iman maalik or any other. Ihl e hadith simply dont follow any imam..they read sahi bukhari/ sahi muslim and from pure hadith deduce their own interpretation without knowing much detail about the hadith.....same for quran..
Deobandi and Barailwii movements are fairly recent...from 1800s...unlike the wahabi movement which is from 7th century.
but deobandi movement is similar to wahabi movement..its not about what fiqah you follow..its about mazaars or shrines.....Deobandi was anti shrines....Barailwee was pro shrines...

Ahle-Hadith, Wahabi & Salafi are one & the same.

Ahle Hadith are "ghair muqallid", & don't follow any particular any Imam. Some Salafis/Wahabis are ghairmuqallid and some are muqallid.

Ahle Hadith title is given to the people specific to India & Pakistan, while Salafi is Arabs. But they are ideologically one and the same.

There are a few differences between Deobandis & Salafis in terms of "haazir naazir", "noor ul-bashr", "ilm-e-ghaib", "tawassul" & other issues of fiqh. There are other slight differences in non-fiqh issues as well.

Let us discuss more in terms of the WOT scenario, rather than making this a "fiqh" thread.
 
My point bringing up the lack of understanding of the West over the scenario in the AfPak region demonstrates the reason why the US has limited connections & contacts with the groups & people in the AfPak region (despite its many efforts to do so), & cannot figure out the endgame in the AfPak war. The ISI has a clear picture of the AfPak scenario, the US really doesn't as much, yet, it seems to want to dictate terms to it without understanding the real situation in the region.
 
My point bringing up the lack of understanding of the West over the scenario in the AfPak region demonstrates the reason why the US has limited connections & contacts with the groups in the regions (despite its many efforts to do so), & cannot figure out the endgame in the AfPak war. The ISI has a clear picture of the AfPak scenario, the US really doesn't as much, yet, it seems to want to dictate terms to it without understanding the real situation in the region.

suffice saying that our own understanding of our own people is no better than the west..
 
suffice saying that our own understanding of our own people is no better than the west..

Our (the regular people) understanding isn't, but the people in the establishment apparently have a lot more understanding of the region & the scenario than their Western counterparts.
 
She is claiming in this Senate hearing that the Pakistani ISI as an institution was responsible for supporting the LeT to carry out the Mumbai attacks. Even David Headley does not agree with her.

Bilal you are delicious bundle of contradictions.lol

That day you were claiming/threatening to post senate hearings of India's 'involvement' in Balochistan and wanted us to believe it. But actually in the hearing they are implicating the ISI as a terrorist organisation that aided the LeT to carry out the attacks in Mumbai and you want us not to believe that by your own rationalization ! :lol:
 
That day you were claiming/threatening to post senate hearings of India's 'involvement' in Balochistan and wanted us to believe it.

Here it is. Watch all of it.

http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/hearing/?id=6ba62360-e05d-bda4-ed40-38bb0b738574

But actually in the hearing they are implicating the ISI as a terrorist organisation that aided the LeT to carry out the attacks in Mumbai and you want us not to believe that by your own rationalization ! :lol:

The ISI has not been convicted for the Mumbai attacks by US officials. David Headley himself says no ISI leader had any involvement with 26/11:

"ISI Leaders Had No Involvement" in Mumbai Attack: Headley Testimony - Human Security Report Project
 

No time...Paraphrase it for me.

The ISI has not been convicted for the Mumbai attacks by US officials. David Headley himself says no ISI leader had any involvement with 26/11:

"ISI Leaders Had No Involvement" in Mumbai Attack: Headley Testimony - Human Security Report Project

I dont care. Either you take her statement fully or dont.No cherry picking to suit your convenience. BTW do you believe what David Headley said ? 'Everything' ? ;)
 
No time...Paraphrase it for me.

I dont care. Either you take her statement fully or dont.No cherry picking to suit your convenience. BTW do you believe what David Headley said ? 'Everything' ? ;)

I think you forgot to read this part of the thread mentioned before in Post #2:

This thread is not about Pakistan & the ISI's policies in the region, but the shortcomings of the US think tanks & the lack of understanding on their part to decipher the endgame in Afghanistan, which has seriously impeded their ability in achieving their goals in the region.

This thread is not about Balochistan or 26/11, this is about the Western think tanks & their understanding (or the lack of it) of the WOT in the AfPak region, which seriously impedes in their ability to develop contacts in the region & understand the ground scenario, which negatively affects their military efforts in the AfPak region.
 
David Headley is a he, not a she.

Not David Headley, the lady in the senate.


My reference to Balochistan and the associated Senate hearing was to bust this rationalization and the associated denial of her claim of ISI involvement in Mumbai. (since you had earlier claimed senate hearings were a credible proof of Indian involvement in Balochistan)

She is claiming in this Senate hearing that the Pakistani ISI as an institution was responsible for supporting the LeT to carry out the Mumbai attacks.

The point being if the Senate hearing on Balochistan can be cited by you a credible proof of Indian involvement in Balochistan, here is the proof of ISI's involvement in Mumbai attacks.
 

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