US Gives Over 100 Military Vehicles to Philippines

[21stCentury]

You touched the right point. Manufacturing capability is the most critical part for the discussion. For the three areas that you think Philippines is doing good with: automobile, shipbuilding and rocket/satellitte

1. Automobile:
the 2014 vehicle production volume in Philippines is about 90k units, an extremely small number even compared with other ASEAN peer countries: Thailiand, almost 2 million units; Indonesia, 1.2 million units; Malaysia 600k units.

What's worse is that most of the vehicles produced in Philippines is done via CKD format, i.e. Philippines only does the final assembly work, while most of the parts are imported from other countries. According to IHS, the CKD rate for Philippines 2014 is 91%, or the rate of CBU (Complete Built Up) is only 9%!

Just look at engines: within the 90k vehicles PH produced, 46% of them were using the engines from Thailand, 30% from Japan, 12% comes from Indonesia.

Automobile industry is the best reflection of a country's manufacturing sector. The high dependency on imported parts clearly tells us how bad the manufacturing sector in Philippines is!

2. Shipbuilding
World No.4 sound a great achievement! But the reality of the Global Shipbuilding Industry is that it is almost 100% dominated by China, S. Korea and Japan: China and S. Korea each takes about 40% of the market, Japan owns about 15%. How much do you think could be left for No. 4 to 10 countries??

The good number of the PH shipbuilding industry is contributed by the Japanese or Korean Shipyards in Philippines. The reasons that they come to Philippines is because of:
- PH has high quality coast lines (coast line is almost the most important reason for the location decision of a shipyard)

- PH is close to S. Korea or Japan, hence won't be too expensive for transport the parts to Philippines

- Low labor cost in Philippines.

Similar to the shipbuilding industry, PH also does a pure assembly work in shipbuilding. Almost all major parts of vessels: engines, transmissions, generators, radars, etc. need to be imported. Even the steel sheet are imported. Just look the steel figures of Philippines given by World Steel Org.: Philippines steel production 2013 was 1.3 million tons; while the net import is 4.8 million tons! Import is almost 3 times bigger than domestic production! BTW, PH's reliance on imported steel is very close to Iraq, a country suffered by consecutive war times since 1990. According to World Steel Org. Iraq's net import of steel is 4.5 million tons!

3. Rocket/Satellite
the 1990s' PH Satellite you mentioned should be ABS-3, a satellite made by Loral of US and launched by China in 1997. See? An American satellite plus Chinese rocket!! If I could have 1 billion dollars in the pocket, I could ask for the same package from US and China as well. But does it mean I therefore could make the satellite and rocket on my own? The answer is obviously NO!

See? That's the real situation of the PH manufacturing sector! That's why I don't believe Philippines could keep the grandpa vehicles in a good status. Again, for a task that US or China could handle well, it doesn't mean a country with much poor manufacturing capabilities could also handle the task well.

BTW, to double or even triple the defense spending of Philippines? We all know how bad the corruptions in Philippines, I think the PH generals and their families will be very grateful to your great ideas!

Very informative post indeed!

 

[GS Zhou]

But it was you who raise these topic to begin with, at post #36 after other member tell you this move is to off set the small defence budget of the Philippine Armed Force. At #36 you mention the corruption is the first mention of Corruption in this thread and basically since then you did not debate anything remotely related to the topic which is the M113 beside that they are trash,

Again, let me ask you this, is this your express purpose to state the M113 Philippine is about to receive is trash? If you, you said so many time already. Or is it your express intention to debate how Uncle Sam always duped the Philippine government by trying to give them the "Hand Me Down"? If so, you have just contradict yourselves, if the M113 is trash, then there should be no problem for China to see it as any sort of threat.

Sorry, I don't mention anything about corruptions in the #36 post. I just said I'm not sure what is the root reason of the low efficiency of the defense budget spending of Philippines, and I also tagged a PH member to ask for help.

Does PDF has any rule saying that "PDF member is only allowed to join a discussion where the subject is about a weapon that could threaten the country of the PDF member"? Does PDF has such rule? If yes, show it to me, and I'll definitely follow it next time.

My friend, no one here questions the industrial might , the industrial abilities and potential of the Chinese Industrial and Military Complex. No one. Instead of focusing on the might and innate capability of China, which we do not question but appreciate in a rival power, focus on the context of the M113 acquisition for the Philippines' Army goals. You also have to know that these inventory will not be used 'against China', but will mostly likely be used to augment the Philippine Army's ability to wipe out insurgency groups such as the NPA, Abu Sayaff, MILF, MNLF, and other separatists forces.

Really sorry for bringing the China spending efficiency topic to the discussion. I know it is off the topic. But as what I stated very clearly in my previous post, I'm not the person that initiating this topic , some PH member raised this topic to us first.

Thanks for the back up see you chinese imperials these are the points you do not understand

Sorry, why posting data and facts could be called as imperialist? If that's the case, World Bank or IMF that led by US should be called as the worst imperialists, because both organizations are posting data and facts day and night. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute should also be imperialist, because it keeps recording and posting defense budget data.

PDF likes data and facts, not void / hysteria post.

The M113 is old, there are no other way for saying that, but being old is one thing, being capable is another. There are many thing a M113 can do a Bradley can't and that's what we should be focusing about. Engine can change, Main Armament can change, gearbox can change and if they are getting too old for it, you can simply put in a new gearbox or found some newer armament and stuck it on a M113 and they will still works, and it does not really matter how old it was, as long as it can function what they are supposed to, and they can be used for what they are supposed to, that's the only thing that should count.

I like your idea about replacing the old engines or transmissions. I believe that's definitely the best way to transform the "grandpa M113s" to be "boy M113s"!

Your idea reminds me a real story that happened to one of my best friends. This guy has a very old sedan. Her wife is bored with it and wants to get a new one. But my friend refused, because he does like his car. So his wife said, then let's send the car to get a complete maintenance at least. My friend agreed. So they go to the service store for "complete maintenance". Actually almost all the key sub-systems were replaced there, engines, transmissions, clutches, suspensions, brakings, seats, instrument panels, blabla. I guess they may only leave the frame unchanged. After the "complete maintenance", they get a bill: 120,000 Chinese Yuan. 120k Yuan! Actually a brand new sedan only costs 80k to 90k Yuan!

Very informative post indeed!

Feel very happy that you like my post.

 

[jhungary]

Sorry, I don't mention anything about corruptions in the #36 post. I just said I'm not sure what is the root reason of the low efficiency of the defense budget spending of Philippines, and I also tagged a PH member to ask for help.

Does PDF has any rule saying that "PDF member is only allowed to join a discussion where the subject is about a weapon that could threaten the country of the PDF member"? Does PDF has such rule? If yes, show it to me, and I'll definitely follow it next time.

You had insinuated the corruption situation in Philippine on post #32 (not #36)

And yes, there are rules forbid discuss outside the scope of the topic, if you discuss something outside the scope of the topic, it will then be off topic post.

Debate the M113 transfer not the Military Structure or corruption problem of Philippine Military, if you are so much willing to talk about Corruption and Kick backs within different military, open a new thread and discuss it there

I like your idea about replacing the old engines or transmissions. I believe that's definitely the best way to transform the "grandpa M113s" to be "boy M113s"!

Your idea reminds me a real story that happened to one of my best friends. This guy has a very old sedan. Her wife is bored with it and wants to get a new one. But my friend refused, because he does like his car. So his wife said, then let's send the car to get a complete maintenance at least. My friend agreed. So they go to the service store for "complete maintenance". Actually almost all the key sub-systems were replaced there, engines, transmissions, clutches, suspensions, brakings, seats, instrument panels, blabla. I guess they may only leave the frame unchanged. After the "complete maintenance", they get a bill: 120,000 Chinese Yuan. 120k Yuan! Actually a brand new sedan only costs 80k to 90k Yuan!

Man, your first problem is compare a 30 years old APC to a 30 years old Sedan.

First of all, there are way too many surplus M113 that have good parts to salvage, even tho M113 was not any more in production, they had produce 87,000 M113 APC from 1960s to 2007 with 16,000 in active service, there are quite a lot of Salvage part out there. And you can get your hands on those part in bulk and dirt cheap, given you know what to do with the APC, how to take it apart and what not.

Fixing an old car is different, parts from old car is usually quite worn, and quite unique, for example, you cannot use a 51 Chevy Truck parts on a 53 Chevy, if the parts is not available, then you will have to make it yourselves. However, if the model of your car is quite abundant for parts (like an old Toyota Corolla) parts are not hard to come by, then fixing it would have been easy and dirt cheap. I just rebuild a 86' Falcon GL XF from scratch, the car cost me $500 from junk yard, I put $7,000 on parts (Engine, Gearbox, Drivetrain and Exhaust) and Paint and if I sell it today I can get at least $10,000 to other collector, of course, I can get a Hyundai Getz for like a thousand dollar less.

What you are saying only show your friend know nothing about cars.

While an old car is a project, a hobby to restore, it's impossible to compare to second hand military vehicle. Of course, you are talking about like $45,000 for a new car, it would be quite stupid if you start restoring old car without a passion. But a New APC cost about 2-3 millions to make, unless you have a spare 2-3 millions to spare on a New APC like LAV or Bradley, either you go fight a war with Toyota Hilux or You get a M113 and make it combat ready, I can tell you this, from facts, I know I can restore 10 M113A2 from another 5-7 surplus for the price of making a brand new Bradley.

 

[Aepsilons]

Really sorry for bringing the China spending efficiency topic to the discussion. I know it is off the topic. But as what I stated very clearly in my previous post, I'm not the person that initiating this topic , some PH member raised this topic to us first.

That is fine, but just try to stick to the main topic. The question of Chinese military potential is not being asked nor is it questioned. Regards.

 

[GS Zhou]

You had insinuated the corruption situation in Philippine on post #32 (not #36)

And yes, there are rules forbid discuss outside the scope of the topic, if you discuss something outside the scope of the topic, it will then be off topic post.

Debate the M113 transfer not the Military Structure or corruption problem of Philippine Military, if you are so much willing to talk about Corruption and Kick backs within different military, open a new thread and discuss it there

What I said in #32 is that the PH generals are wasting the defense budget. It's a very natural point that derived from the comparison among Philippines, Myanmar and Bangladesh. Is waste necessarily corruption? I believe we all have waste in our daily lives, but that doesn't mean we are corrupted people.

As I said earlier, there are other people speaking in this thread that the defense budget of Philippines is very small, or there is need for Philippines to double or even triple the spending. A discussion on defense spending efficiency is thereof a very natural extension. Given that, pls stop blaming me as the guy to be "derailing the topic", at least I'm not the first one in this thread to be "derailing"

Your previous word to me is: "it post no threat to you or China, then what is the point of argument?"
And that's why I ask you if there is a rule here that "PDF member is only allowed to join a discussion where the subject is about a weapon that could threaten the country of the PDF member"? Does PDF has such rule? If yes, show it to me, and I'll definitely follow it next time.

For discussion on the key parts replacement, your original post is "if they are getting too old for it, you can simply put in a new gearbox or found some newer armament and stuck it on a M113 and they will still works". What you said is "new" and "newer", not salvage.

I don't want to make comments on the automobile knowledge of my friend, that's derailing the topic. But the general economy principal won't be easily changed: to make the core pieces of machinery to be replaced by new ones is more expensive than purchasing a new machinery. This principal won't be changed, no matter it is APC, or sedan.

That is fine, but just try to stick to the main topic. The question of Chinese military potential is not being asked nor is it questioned. Regards.

I'll take your advice.

A reminder to you, before I do the China vs. Japan comparison, there are some Philippine member advocating "Chinese trash gear" or "corruption in china is far worse" in this thread. Hope you could send the same message to the PH guy as well. Thanks.

Regards.

 

[Aepsilons]

I'll take your advice.

A reminder to you, before I do the China vs. Japan comparison, there are some Philippine member advocating "Chinese trash gear" or "corruption in china is far worse" in this thread. Hope you could send the same message to the PH guy as well. Thanks.

Regards.

Thank you for your advice, I will consider it if the situation ever arises.

 

[jhungary]

What I said in #32 is that the PH generals are wasting the defense budget. It's a very natural point that derived from the comparison among Philippines, Myanmar and Bangladesh. Is waste necessarily corruption? I believe we all have waste in our daily lives, but that doesn't mean we are corrupted people.

As I said earlier, there are other people speaking in this thread that the defense budget of Philippines is very small, or there is need for Philippines to double or even triple the spending. A discussion on defense spending efficiency is thereof a very natural extension. Given that, pls stop blaming me as the guy to be "derailing the topic", at least I'm not the first one in this thread to be "derailing"

Hence the word "Insinuation", do you know what insinuation means? And how is Philippine General spending the budget related to the M113 Donation? You can argue Philippine needed those M113 because they have a small military budget. That would be totally within guideline. But How Philippine General fits into the picture? The moment you start insinuating anything, you have gone off topic.

Your previous word to me is: "it post no threat to you or China, then what is the point of argument?"
And that's why I ask you if there is a rule here that "PDF member is only allowed to join a discussion where the subject is about a weapon that could threaten the country of the PDF member"? Does PDF has such rule? If yes, show it to me, and I'll definitely follow it next time.

I was asking your intention to argue in this post.

You keep arguing with an base on the assumption that there are something wrong with this "transaction" as you are clearly against it. I just want to know why.

What I said is, if you think M113 is trash or crap, well, point noted, with respect, you are wrong, but again, point noted, or you are thinking Philippine got duped by the US for taking in those Junk? What I said is, as a Chinese member, this is not of your concern actually, you don't pay for this, you won't use it, they are between Philippine and the US so what or why you have against this deal is beyond me. You can register your surprise on why Philippine took these "supposedly" junk, but again, you don't need to stretch 20 points to argue with other something not really related to your sphere, right?

For discussion on the key parts replacement, your original post is "if they are getting too old for it, you can simply put in a new gearbox or found some newer armament and stuck it on a M113 and they will still works". What you said is "new" and "newer", not salvage.

I don't want to make comments on the automobile knowledge of my friend, that's derailing the topic. But the general economy principal won't be easily changed: to make the core pieces of machinery to be replaced by new ones is more expensive than purchasing a new machinery. This principal won't be changed, no matter it is APC, or sedan.

Am I wrong? New (Brand new Allison TX-100-1A gear box is still being produced as 6V53 Diesel Engine as part of Ford F100 Truck gearbox, meaning, as long as Ford F100 still being made in the US there WILL ALWAYS BE NEW) Gear Box for sale at $500 a piece.

MT 653 Allison Transmission

FLANDERS TECHNICAL SUPPLY


You can also put new Armament package in it, like a Hellfire Air/Ground fire station, or 25mm M242 Bushmaster or 30mike-mike on it and become a FSV, or put a L7 on it and become a MGS.

How much would it cost to remake a M113 with brand new Detroit 6V53 Gearbox with a salvage engine and put a $500,000 TOW-2 Missile Package? And how much of a different when you have to compare to a brand new Bradley IFV?

It takes 3.6 mil per any M-2 Bradley to be made, and it take about 600,000 to refit a new gear box, salvage engine and a used TOW missile system to outfit a M113. You do the maths. I can rebuild 7 M901 to just 1 M2 Bradley. Both Shoot TOW-2 Anti-Armour missile.

 

[Shotgunner51]

You touched the right point. Manufacturing capability is the most critical part for the discussion. For the three areas that you think Philippines is doing good with: automobile, shipbuilding and rocket/satellitte

1. Automobile:
the 2014 vehicle production volume in Philippines is about 90k units, an extremely small number even compared with other ASEAN peer countries: Thailiand, almost 2 million units; Indonesia, 1.2 million units; Malaysia 600k units.

What's worse is that most of the vehicles produced in Philippines is done via CKD format, i.e. Philippines only does the final assembly work, while most of the parts are imported from other countries. According to IHS, the CKD rate for Philippines 2014 is 91%, or the rate of CBU (Complete Built Up) is only 9%!

Just look at engines: within the 90k vehicles PH produced, 46% of them were using the engines from Thailand, 30% from Japan, 12% comes from Indonesia.

Automobile industry is the best reflection of a country's manufacturing sector. The high dependency on imported parts clearly tells us how bad the manufacturing sector in Philippines is!

2. Shipbuilding
World No.4 sound a great achievement! But the reality of the Global Shipbuilding Industry is that it is almost 100% dominated by China, S. Korea and Japan: China and S. Korea each takes about 40% of the market, Japan owns about 15%. How much do you think could be left for No. 4 to 10 countries??

The good number of the PH shipbuilding industry is contributed by the Japanese or Korean Shipyards in Philippines. The reasons that they come to Philippines is because of:
- PH has high quality coast lines (coast line is almost the most important reason for the location decision of a shipyard)

- PH is close to S. Korea or Japan, hence won't be too expensive for transport the parts to Philippines

- Low labor cost in Philippines.

Similar to the shipbuilding industry, PH also does a pure assembly work in shipbuilding. Almost all major parts of vessels: engines, transmissions, generators, radars, etc. need to be imported. Even the steel sheet are imported. Just look the steel figures of Philippines given by World Steel Org.: Philippines steel production 2013 was 1.3 million tons; while the net import is 4.8 million tons! Import is almost 3 times bigger than domestic production! BTW, PH's reliance on imported steel is very close to Iraq, a country suffered by consecutive war times since 1990. According to World Steel Org. Iraq's net import of steel is 4.5 million tons!

3. Rocket/Satellite
the 1990s' PH Satellite you mentioned should be ABS-3, a satellite made by Loral of US and launched by China in 1997. See? An American satellite plus Chinese rocket!! If I could have 1 billion dollars in the pocket, I could ask for the same package from US and China as well. But does it mean I therefore could make the satellite and rocket on my own? The answer is obviously NO!

See? That's the real situation of the PH manufacturing sector! That's why I don't believe Philippines could keep the grandpa vehicles in a good status. Again, for a task that US or China could handle well, it doesn't mean a country with much poor manufacturing capabilities could also handle the task well.

BTW, to double or even triple the defense spending of Philippines? We all know how bad the corruptions in Philippines, I think the PH generals and their families will be very grateful to your great ideas!

Very informative post on industrial or manufacturing!

 

[GS Zhou]

Hence the word "Insinuation", do you know what insinuation means? And how is Philippine General spending the budget related to the M113 Donation? You can argue Philippine needed those M113 because they have a small military budget. That would be totally within guideline. But How Philippine General fits into the picture? The moment you start insinuating anything, you have gone off topic.

All that I said is the generals are wasting the money. That's an obvious point derived from the comparison. How you comprehend the word "waste" is your thing, which I should not be responsible for. If you think the discussion on defense budget spending efficiency is "off topic", then why discussion on budget size is not? Budget size and the efficiency of using the budget, that's the two sides of the same coin.

I was asking your intention to argue in this post.

You keep arguing with an base on the assumption that there are something wrong with this "transaction" as you are clearly against it. I just want to know why.

What I said is, if you think M113 is trash or crap, well, point noted, with respect, you are wrong, but again, point noted, or you are thinking Philippine got duped by the US for taking in those Junk? What I said is, as a Chinese member, this is not of your concern actually, you don't pay for this, you won't use it, they are between Philippine and the US so what or why you have against this deal is beyond me. You can register your surprise on why Philippine took these "supposedly" junk, but again, you don't need to stretch 20 points to argue with other something not really related to your sphere, right?

Show me the rule of "PDF member is only allowed to join a discussion where the subject is about a weapon that could threaten the country of the PDF member"? If you can not find the rule, pls stop the challenge on this dimension.

Am I wrong? New (Brand new Allison TX-100-1A gear box is still being produced as 6V53 Diesel Engine as part of Ford F100 Truck gearbox, meaning, as long as Ford F100 still being made in the US there WILL ALWAYS BE NEW) Gear Box for sale at $500 a piece.

MT 653 Allison Transmission

FLANDERS TECHNICAL SUPPLY


You can also put new Armament package in it, like a Hellfire Air/Ground fire station, or 25mm M242 Bushmaster or 30mike-mike on it and become a FSV, or put a L7 on it and become a MGS.

How much would it cost to remake a M113 with brand new Detroit 6V53 Gearbox with a salvage engine and put a $500,000 TOW-2 Missile Package? And how much of a different when you have to compare to a brand new Bradley IFV?

It takes 3.6 mil per any M-2 Bradley to be made, and it take about 600,000 to refit a new gear box, salvage engine and a used TOW missile system to outfit a M113. You do the maths. I can rebuild 7 M901 to just 1 M2 Bradley. Both Shoot TOW-2 Anti-Armour missile.

With all your great plans for M113 modification, let me share you some words on M113 from Brig. Gen. John G. Ferrari, director, joint and futures, Army G-8
- you really don't want your son or daughter to go to war in that thing
- (after a heavy modification) the engine doesn't have enough power to move it around

Army's 2014 modernization plan prioritizes Soldiers in fight

BTW, A brand new transmission that could afford heavy torque costs only 500$? Sorry, but I have to say, this suspicious number really weakens the credibility of your comments here.

Very informative post on industrial or manufacturing!

many thanks!

 

[jhungary]

All that I said is the generals are wasting the money. That's an obvious point derived from the comparison. How you comprehend the word "waste" is your thing, which I should not be responsible for. If you think the discussion on defense budget spending efficiency is "off topic", then why discussion on budget size is not? Budget size and the efficiency of using the budget, that's the two sides of the same coin.

Again, READ THIS LINE CAREFULLY.

How Philippine General Allegedly WASTED the Philippine budget have to do with US giving Philippine second hand M113?

And then how and what did Chinese industrial output have to do with this particular deal?

Show me the rule of "PDF member is only allowed to join a discussion where the subject is about a weapon that could threaten the country of the PDF member"? If you can not find the rule, pls stop the challenge on this dimension.

As I said, the scope of this topic is NOT HOW PHILIPPINE spend their defence budget. Any subsequent discussion derived on this topic would be off topic.

And off topic comment is not allowed in PDF thread.

If you want to discuss How Philippine will be using the M113, you are welcome, if you want to debate where the Philippine general spend the money, this is off topic.

This is VERY simple. AS I said, not a single Philippine or other national member discuss how Philippine spend their defence budget here, and you want to know why?

With all your great plans for M113 modification, let me share you some words on M113 from Brig. Gen. John G. Ferrari, director, joint and futures, Army G-8
- you really don't want your son or daughter to go to war in that thing
- (after a heavy modification) the engine doesn't have enough power to move it around

Army's 2014 modernization plan prioritizes Soldiers in fight

BTW, A brand new transmission that could afford heavy torque costs only 500$? Sorry, but I have to say, this suspicious number really weakens the credibility of your comments here.

many thanks!

lol, my credibility is fine, thank you very much.

How much would you think a second hand military armoured vehicle cost these day if you have the license to buy one?

It ranged from $10,000 to $40,000, I can buy an ex-NZ stock M113A2 for $40,000 AUD

Armoured Vehicles - Mortar Investments

Smith Consulting Group, LLC • Surplus Equipment: Inventory M113

You know you want one! M113A1 for sale - MLU FORUM

Bear in mind Demilled item are quite a lot more expensive than Military buying Military equipment cause of the Tax and the Works need to be done for demilling.

How much do you think a new gearbox will cost? $10,000. Think you have not familiar with the concept of "Surplus".

By the way, the General did not actually said what you said he say. What you mentioned is the reported "generalise the general's point" which is "During Vietnam, Soldiers put sandbags on the floor and sides because even then they didn't provide much protection. Yet we still have them 50 years later". As other already mentioned in this post, the good general refer to the first generation M113 (not up armoured M113A1 or A2 currently in service) The original M113 is indeed crap, but do you know how much it have improved since the original M113 debut in 1960s?

 

[GS Zhou]

Again, READ THIS LINE CAREFULLY.

How Philippine General Allegedly WASTED the Philippine budget have to do with US giving Philippine second hand M113?

And then how and what did Chinese industrial output have to do with this particular deal?

If the discussion on defense budget spending efficiency is "off topic", then why discussion on budget size is not? Budget size and the efficiency of using the budget, that's the two sides of the same coin.

Amount & Quality of the weapons obtained = Budget size x Budget spending efficiency. If a discussion on budget size is allowed, why a discussion on budget spending efficiency is off the topic? They are both directly relevant to the same/eventual target: Amount & Quality of the weapons obtained

The reason I do the China vs. Japan comparison is because other PH member brought the China corruption question. Why don't you point you finger to the PH guy?

lol, my credibility is fine, thank you very much.

How much would you think a second hand military armoured vehicle cost these day if you have the license to buy one?

It ranged from $10,000 to $40,000, I can buy an ex-NZ stock M113A2 for $40,000 AUD

Armoured Vehicles - Mortar Investments

Smith Consulting Group, LLC • Surplus Equipment: Inventory M113

You know you want one! M113A1 for sale - MLU FORUM

How much do you think a new gearbox will cost? $10,000. Think you have not familiar with the concept of "Surplus".

By the way, the General did not actually said what you said he say. What you mentioned is the reported "generalise the general's point" which is "During Vietnam, Soldiers put sandbags on the floor and sides because even then they didn't provide much protection. Yet we still have them 50 years later". As other already mentioned in this post, the good general refer to the first generation M113 (not up armoured M113A1 or A2 currently in service) The original M113 is indeed crap, but do you know how much it have improved since the original M113 debut in 1960s?

What is the price of a brand new transmission that could afford heavy torque? Your original post is 500$ per unit, but after 30mins, you told me it costs 10,000 $. A 20x gap!! Could you pls be consistent among the different posts that you said? Otherwise it really will weaken your credibility, it maybe good for now, but who knows, if you keep making inconsistent comments.

For the comments of the American General. What he stated clearly is:
- Yet we still have them 50 years later
- those M113s serving on the front lines should be removed as soon as possible
- the engine doesn't have enough power to move it around.
- In other words, he said, "you really don't want your son or daughter to go to war in that thing."

As this is a Army General and one of the architects responsible for assembling The US Army's fiscal year 2014 Equipment Modernization Plan, I prefer to believe the general's comments on the M113, rather than a person who make 20x gap mistake in just 30 mins.

 

[jhungary]

If the discussion on defense budget spending efficiency is "off topic", then why discussion on budget size is not? Budget size and the efficiency of using the budget, that's the two sides of the same coin.

Amount & Quality of the weapons obtained = Budget size x Budget spending efficiency. If a discussion on budget size is allowed, why a discussion on budget spending efficiency is off the topic? They are both directly relevant to the same/eventual target: Amount & Quality of the weapons obtained

The reason I do the China vs. Japan comparison is because other PH member brought the China corruption question. Why don't you point you finger to the PH guy?

The budget itself related to the Deal, simply because Philippine cannot afford the new APC they need some help in the APC front, and that's why the deal is there in the first place.

How to use the budget is not related to the topic at hand, they can spend 25 grand on toilet seat for all I care, the deal is not done because the Philippine general spend 25 grand on a toilet seat, the deal spawned because they need the APC.

Hence, how Philippine General spend their money related to the APC deal?

What is the price of a brand new transmission that could afford heavy torque? Your original post is 500$ per unit, but after 30mins, you told me it costs 10,000 $. A 20x gap!! Could you pls be consistent among the different posts that you said? Otherwise it really will weaken your credibility, it maybe good for now, but who knows, if you keep making inconsistent comments.

For the comments of the American General. What he stated clearly is:
- Yet we still have them 50 years later
- those M113s serving on the front lines should be removed as soon as possible
- the engine doesn't have enough power to move it around.
- In other words, he said, "you really don't want your son or daughter to go to war in that thing."

As this is a Army General and one of the architects responsible for assembling The US Army's fiscal year 2014 Equipment Modernization Plan, I prefer to believe the general's comments on the M113, rather than a person who make 20x gap mistake in just 30 mins.

Dude, your English is crap.

I asked "HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK A TRANSMISSION WOULD COST, DO YOU THINK IT COST $10,000?" I did not say a TX-100-1A cost $10,000. Clearly I am mocking you on you don't know about the concept of "Surplus" while I can get a M113 itself for less than 35,000 USD, It would not cost much for a surplus gearbox.

Again, the General did not say "you really don't want your son or daughter to go to war in that thing", in fact, WE DID WENT TO WAR WITH THAT THING. The General is saying the original M113 perform badly in Vietnam and still we have them 50 years later. This is what he said

"
The chassis of an M113 "is basically an aluminum box," he said. "During Vietnam, Soldiers put sandbags on the floor and sides because even then they didn't provide much protection. Yet we still have them 50 years later."

Besides lacking robust armor, the M113 is also not configured for adding network gear, he said. Also, advanced medical equipment can't be loaded on it because the engine doesn't have enough power to move it around."

Army's 2014 modernization plan prioritizes Soldiers in fight | Article | The United States Army

Then I want to know how come M577A2/A3 (M113 command variant) have the EEDAS required to function as a Command Vehicle if they were no network gear?

• An electronic equipment data distribution system (wires mounted on the inner walls of the vehicle and external covered ports)

Army Guide

or M1068 have the Standard Integrated Command Post System??

The M1068 Command Post Carrier added complementary systems such as international maritime satellite, Iridium, C2 personal computers, SECRET Internet Protocol Network, and high-fidelity radio. The communications suite also included Blue Force tracking, a than-new space-based information system.

M1068 Standard Integrated Command Post System (SICPS) Carrier

If all M113 have no network gear?

Clearly, what the General said is refer to the M113 during Vietnam war. Add-on Armour, Network Protocol were added to M113 since the 80s. It was, and still can, add either reactive armor or mesh armor and have network connectivity within any M113 today

This is an Israeli M113 with Mesh and Reactive Armour add on

This webpage show FBCB2 kits (Battle management computer, which require internet access) can be installed on M113

FBCB2 Installation Kits



You can believe whatever the you want, but you know nothing about, but it's right to interpret your information before you comment on other people post, it's ok if you want to fool the ignorant population, but you look like a joke to a former M113 Driver like me.

 

[GS Zhou]

The budget itself related to the Deal, simply because Philippine cannot afford the new APC they need some help in the APC front, and that's why the deal is there in the first place.

How to use the budget is not related to the topic at hand,

Amount & Quality of the weapons obtained = Budget size x Budget spending efficiency. Hard to comprehend this?

Discussion on budget size is allowed, while the discussion on budget spending efficiency is not allowed. What a great example of "Double Standard"

I asked "HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK A TRANSMISSION WOULD COST, DO YOU THINK IT COST $10,000?"

Sorry, but your original post is: How much do you think a new gearbox will cost? $10,000.

To end the sentence with ".", or "?" will make the implications of the sentence completely different. Just an example:
"This is the beautiful lady that John mentioned to us." vs. "This is the beautiful lady that John mentioned to us?"

The lady is beautiful or not beautiful? To end the sentence with "." or "?" will make the implication completely different.

Again, pls be consistent between the different posts you made. You already made three inconsistency issues in less than 60 mins:
- new, newer vs. salvage
- 500$ per unit vs. 10,000 $ per unit
- "." vs "?"

Screenshot of your previous post

the General did not say "you really don't want your son or daughter to go to war in that thing",

Quote from the US Army article: " In other words, he said, "you really don't want your son or daughter to go to war in that thing." "

Who is the "he" mentioned by the article?

 

[pr1v4t33r]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1243437549004963

 

[Zero_wing]

Sorry, I don't mention anything about corruptions in the #36 post. I just said I'm not sure what is the root reason of the low efficiency of the defense budget spending of Philippines, and I also tagged a PH member to ask for help.

Does PDF has any rule saying that "PDF member is only allowed to join a discussion where the subject is about a weapon that could threaten the country of the PDF member"? Does PDF has such rule? If yes, show it to me, and I'll definitely follow it next time.



Really sorry for bringing the China spending efficiency topic to the discussion. I know it is off the topic. But as what I stated very clearly in my previous post, I'm not the person that initiating this topic , some PH member raised this topic to us first.


Sorry, why posting data and facts could be called as imperialist? If that's the case, World Bank or IMF that led by US should be called as the worst imperialists, because both organizations are posting data and facts day and night. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute should also be imperialist, because it keeps recording and posting defense budget data.

PDF likes data and facts, not void / hysteria post.



I like your idea about replacing the old engines or transmissions. I believe that's definitely the best way to transform the "grandpa M113s" to be "boy M113s"!

Your idea reminds me a real story that happened to one of my best friends. This guy has a very old sedan. Her wife is bored with it and wants to get a new one. But my friend refused, because he does like his car. So his wife said, then let's send the car to get a complete maintenance at least. My friend agreed. So they go to the service store for "complete maintenance". Actually almost all the key sub-systems were replaced there, engines, transmissions, clutches, suspensions, brakings, seats, instrument panels, blabla. I guess they may only leave the frame unchanged. After the "complete maintenance", they get a bill: 120,000 Chinese Yuan. 120k Yuan! Actually a brand new sedan only costs 80k to 90k Yuan!


Feel very happy that you like my post.

Man your really an adopate are you first your facts is some true all lies piece together for your propaganda needs does not matter anyway because knows better so ya your troll and your peoples actions and the actions of your people are the textbook definition of imperialism and expansionism so save your pleads because we know better your just troll with nice coat of paint