A. THE US AND ITS AFPAK policy: Pakistan is cursed by being in a vital strategic position. If we had been somewhere in the bushes of Africa we would not have been that important. We know the game is on and we know its nature and its objectives. The strategic aim is to keep control of the warm waters and secure the sea lanes and contain China and more dangerously the the Sino russian alliance. The question is that even if we know the strategy what are you going to do about it. Post 9./11 certain demands were made including the use of some bases and right of flight over territory. Pakistan was not is not and will not be in a position to stand up to the US for another 50-100 years. The problem is the financial position you are in. That was not of the army' s doing although I would be the first to agree that the Generals benefitted from the situation. You look at your trade and see how you can survive if US were to embargo the trade that you do with them. Even if you did not confront them directly but resisted behind the scenes they would have mauled you badly. I still say Musharraf collapsed far too soon but such is the problem of having an autocracy. If there had been a political government with some balls they would have negotiated harder and gotten some more benefits out of it but at the end of the day you would have to give in. So back to square one. We know the aims and outcome but a frontal attack would be disasterous and therefore the dilly dallying to safeguard your own home.
Ok, so we know that one country is working against us and yet we are bowing to them ? isn't that called Begairti ? why consider India as your enemy than ? when we all know the Game of US ? US is than our biggest enemy , propbably bigger than India right ?
Iran did survive on its own, we can too .. yeah we don't have Oil but we can make a Alliance with China , ME and Russia .. ME wont be stop selling us Oil cause we Protect them , our forces are there to protect the king ..
every sane person knows what US is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq , its just some Patriotic Stupid Americans who believe the Righteousness of US .. if the bigger game is been planned and playing within Pakistan than why not just cut all diplomatic ties with US ? did North Korea Vanish from the earth ? they still exist and continue to stand on what they believed .. our economy been destroyed , our infrastructure been destroyed , our Soldiers died Haram maut at Salala , and yet we are begging for 8 F-16 ? even a beggar at street have more Dignity you know that right ?
I am not saying to go on all out war with US, but at least stop Buying weapons, stop relying on them , have some respect, are we not moving towards Russia ? can't we do this long ago ? since 1999 US is using Afghanistan to Play its proxies , i cant accept that ISI or Army does not know .. and yet they stay silent ? letting them do whatever they want ..maybe because majority of Generals have already shifted their families in US , their relatives , sons , daughters are all US national .. that's why ? ..
B. The F16s and the M2Ks: We have talked this to its death. On this forum you have beard from the very man who was responsible for executing the M2K deal. The deal was represented to the French 90 days later and they did not accept it. Reason may have been a certain Mr Sarkozy and backhanders which Zardari was willing to share with him but others were not. In 2002-6 PAF was quoted 60 million per M2K5 refurbished for 59 planes. You may say what you like but the deal was never in the bag. Bad luck, fate or just which side of the bed Benazir got out of. The deal never happened. The J10 which you all sing praises of was not ready till that time. The other issue is the fact that with the amount of upgradability JFT was found to be as good as the J10 by the PAF who have been intimately involved and aware of the developments of the Chinese aviation industry. Recently the J10B has had issues with its engines with massive flameouts observed by PAF and 2 recent crashed due to problems with its structure. This is widely known in the internet fora. So there is something not quite right with it yet. With the Chinese policy of hand me down technology JFT will get all the goodies which J10 would have had so why buy 2 planes with similar technology. I can say with absolute authority that the 16s will give any plane in the region including the Rafale a run for its money and the IAF will think twice before it enters Pakistani air space. Can you imagine the downgrading of the morale of IAF if during a skirmish a Rafale is lost with a block 52.
J-10's might have some issues , which plane does not have ? Even F-35 is experiencing issues , that mean you wont buy or secure an order ? J-10 is not equal to JF, but better than Thunder, Payload , Range , Radar , Hard points , IRST and what not .. we have F-7pg and Mirage 3, they are crashing like Mig-21's now .. lets say when we retire all of them , than what we will have in inventory ? 150-200 JF , and 90 F-16 ? and you want to counter 300+/- Su-30 MKI and 36 Rafale with this ? IAF will die laughing .. not to mentioned their Mig-29K and Mirage 2000 which are both superior to our Mirage and F-16 A/D blocks . you are talking about 5th generation like its piece of Cake to get ? if you think US will give you F-35 ,than forget it , J-31 is still 5-8 years ahead .. you have to induct a 4++ gen Aircraft ..
do we have SAM layers like IAF has ? NO ..
this the problem that our PAF is making fool out of the nation that they can counter with their enemies but they know they cant .. IAF , and IN becomes huge , and we remain tiny , not because of our economy but because of our bad decisions .
tell me what if we have 70 J-10's by now , wouldn't that be better than having 60 JF-17 ?
do we even have a 4++ Generation Fighter ? only 18 Block 52 cant fight with everything IAF has ..
we have been given this idea that F-16 is GOD .. and can defeat F-22 Raptor right ? PAF is worshiping it ..
you are well knows poster, you must have known that PAF stands nowhere in Air when it comes to battle .. we have no Long range SAMs , nor any heavy Multi-role Fighter . F-16 is our front line , and if it got sanctioned in case of War, which i am sure it will be , we will be left with only 100 JF's , F-7PG , anad mirage 3ROSE , BABA ADAM ke Zamane ke Planes ..
and F-16 block 52 defeating Rafale , i was expecting this from you .. yaar common ...
my whole point is why are we begging for just 8 F-16, again and again , if we beg to Russians maybe they will let China export their J-series to PAF which is far more capable than F-16 ( any block ) ..
C:THE ARMY HAS SOLD US OUT:- This notion is without any proof. The reason is that the general unlike the politicians cannot in most cases leave their country and still remain relevant. Sure people have retired and gone to greener pastures but in case of a conflict they will live and die in Pakistan. They will not be accepted else where. So do Generals make money ---yes, but do they sell their nation I would hope not. Politicians on the other hand will do both without any hesitation. As to how do Generals paint the picture they have to be upbeat and positive. How do you think I dja will behave if Raheel Shareef came on to the scene and said our ammo will not last more than 3 days in a war and by day 5 we will be Freddied. Of course he wont say that. The point J am trying to make is thaf the armed forces are just one facet of defence of thus nation. We as a nation do not give taxes steal from where ever we can lay our hands on and yet the Generals need to tell the truth. WHY??It is not the fault of the navy that there eequest for frigates has gone on to deaf ears. The country just does not have the money and whatever we have is being looted with both hands by politicians and generals alike.
there are many things that has no prove my dear but people know .. and just because Public is not giving Taxes does not meant that Generals get justification to sell out the country right .. they get their salaries on time , they get houses , properties and what not .. now don't tell me Army men are poor and hungry fellows ..
I am not against the army , but the people who are making the decision , they think what ? countries prepare for war in peace time .. and it seems to me that PN and PAF just sleep in their bed's thinking that we have Nukes so now we are invincible .. they should be punished, Govt should investigate the PAF And PN Generals and looks for lobbies .. if they are taking bribe , but we all know that its impossible in Pakistan .. because Blasphemy of Prophet is Ok for Pakistani, but say a Word to Army , and people will come out to kill you..
D. SALALA AND OBS: Again irrespective of what happened what do you expect the soldiers to do. Start a full scale battle in response. Sure it was a stupid thing by the US. They have apologised and regretted the event. But a response from PA woyld have made a bad situation worse. As to what our response would be in case of an outright attack by the US, the answer is we will do whatever we can to defend our country against a legitimate offensive act by anyone but you dont respond with aggression to a strategic mistake. The OBS incident is a wierd one and I woukd much rather not discuss it on an open forum. So lets leave it at that..
So in short the armed forces are a part of the nake up of the country. Theee are good and bad amongst it but in general most of them are patriots. The situation wirh tge US needs to be dealt with ta t and patience. They are in a position of giving so they will have some questions as well and since we receive we need to show some restraint. The 16s will continue to be a backbone of our force makeup for considerable time but will be the last platform that we buy from them.
No one saying to start a full scale war, but still we can do something , shoot down the chopper , send F-16 to chase or anything .. or at least cut off ties later .. but no .. Shamsi base khali karo bhai ... if you think US regret that incident that i think you are deluded, they did on purpose .. this wasn;t a mistake but a planned attacked .. if someone believe that it was mistake is either a Fool or stupid .. and you know better than me about the Technology and stuff ..
The best solution for Pakistan is for few years cut off all ties with US, no Military buying or anything but you know , we cant do that either .. anyone who take this stand will be put in Jail by Military courts .. isn;t that true ?
F-16's are useless in modern warfare when you are dealing with Rafale , Su-30MKI hundreds of them , 2-3rd layer of SAM ..
