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Featured US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

Hi you can get them if you have $$ so basically no money no honey situation at the moment so only one left without cash transactions is ChINA at the end PAA will be getting Z10 soon better then late
thank you

Agreed. But I have heard from some YouTube sources that Pakistan's Economy is getting better. Pakistan is looking to privatize about every industry and they might get a lot of money $$$ and that's how they will pay to US and other suppliers.
Don't count on it, the Zulu is never coming to Pakistan.

Unless the Turks can offer a replacement engine within a reasonable period of time, this deal is dead.

Looks like PA is going to buy Chinese once again.

Meanwhile, Biden seems to be eating the same glue that Trump and Obama were, not realizing that he's sacrificing long term US interests for short term political gains. So much for people on here claiming that Biden is pro-Pakistan.

I think PAA should have ordered 30 Z-10s besides the acquisitions of T-129s and AH-1Zs. Z-10s have their own role along side Kashmir border.
No , With Beidon administration (democrats) we have even slim chance of having AH-1Z than Trump administration
:pakistan: :usflag::turkey:Time will tell.
 
on the face of it looks like big win for gloating Indians but still there are two positive outcomes. Both Z-10 and T-129 got extensively tested in Pakistani environment. Z-10 got some improvements and Turks have started working on their own engine program.

mishaps are a fact of the game. not every thing is guaranteed, Turks were of the view that they should be able to lobby their way out for the US engines. their current tussle with USA and Indian influence on Americans against Pakistan also didn't favor our T-129 program.

there is no restriction on acquiring Z-10 helicopters from china but Pakistan seems to be waiting for some upgrades before making the call to wait for Turks or go ahead with the newer version of Chinese gunships.
T129 engine sanction is part of Cobra embargo. Last 10 year Pakistan only able to upgrade the F16 , nothing major procurement
 
Unless the US will block the properties of Pakistani ruling elite in US and Europe, they will continue to lick the boots of their foreign masters and keeps demoralizing the country!

We can never make our independent foreign policy, trade policy, economic policy as long as we have the children of our politicians, bureaucrats and generals settled in the Western countries enjoying on tax payers money on the name of "merit" scholarships and foreign programs!
 
Even their famous drones are mostly made up of foreign components.

You have wrong information


ANKA-S and AKSUNGUR UCAVs are 100% indigenous including Engine ( TEI PD-170 )

Turkey has developed its own CATS E/O System for Bayraktar TB-2 UCAV to replace Canadian E/O System

and Turkey ( 51%) -Ukraine (49%) established a company to produce Engines for AKINCI UCAV in Turkey
also there will be another variant of AKINCI UCAV with Turkish TEI PD-222 Engine



btw Turkey has developed 1663 shp turboshaft Engine for T-625 Utility Helicopter , T-129 and T-629 Attack Helicopters

soon Turkey will start testing indigenous turboshaft Engine on Helicopters

Turkish Aerospace Industries will spend $80 million for integration of TS-1400 engine on T-625 Helicopter
and in 2024 , TEI will start mass production of EASA certified TS-1400 Engine
 
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Even Chinese are working with France/Airbus to manufacture engine.
I don't think that we are on the same page, anyway, the cooperation between us and French are civilian sector only, all PLA heli are equipped with domestic wz9, wz10 series.
 
Well, the first Pakistani pilot to fly the F-16 also built the JF-17 Thunders.

According to him (Air Marshal (retd) Shahid Latif), the JF-17 Thunders are based on the F-16 design and Block-3 have supercede the Pakistani F-16s.

But that doesn't mean PAF have any doubts on F-16 capabilities, remember we all celebrate and enjoy when the same useless F-16 drop 2 Indian Fighters off the sky like flies, and to this date, we are trolling them for it, F-16's was/is/will be in near future ( with proper upgrades ) a fighter to be reckoned with, if Pakistan gets a chance to get 18-36 new F-16V with the option of upgrading the existing fleet to V standard then they should grab it with both hands.

As for JF block 3, yes in some aspects it will bypass F-16 but only older blocks like 10/15 even 40, but F-16 block 52's i doubt it.
 
Z-10s or Z-10MEs may not be upto PA requirements even with upgraded engines & systems.

For T-129s there may be another solution:

If the US has no objections then PA buys the American engines from Turkish credit.
Turkey supplies engine-less airframes to PA & help us in fitting the engines.


Waiting for Turkish engines is a long haul as they must prove their metal.

RR Gem engines may also be not suitable to our requirements.
 
Z-10s or Z-10MEs may not be upto PA requirements even with upgraded engines & systems.

For T-129s there may be another solution:

If the US has no objections then PA buys the American engines from Turkish credit.
Turkey supplies engine-less airframes to PA & help us in fitting the engines.


Waiting for Turkish engines is a long haul as they must prove their metal.

RR Gem engines may also be not suitable to our requirements.
What is lacking in Z - 10 ME?
 
Pakistan should talk to Italy again ... AugustaWestland has good working relationship with PA and in the past they offered Mangusta 129 . Pakistan bought a good fleet of AW..
Agusta A129 Mangusta
1615472937358.png



I think Turkey knew from the beginning this deal won't go through ... they put lot of efforts but ....



Turkey Hires Washington Lobbyist to Help Clear Helicopter Sale to Pakistan

  • Our Bureau
  • 01:19 PM, August 19, 2020
  • 6090

Turkey Hires Washington Lobbyist to Help Clear Helicopter Sale to Pakistan

T-129 ATAK helicopter. @turkish Aerospace Industries
Turkey has hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration for securing an export licence which will help complete a $1.5 billion sale of ATAK helicopters to Pakistan.
“Concerned by the continued delay of the sale to Pakistan, previously unreported filings required by the U.S. Foreign Agents Registration Act show that Turkish Aerospace Industries-TAI (which manufactures the ATAK helicopter) hired US law firms, Greenberg Traurig LLP and its lobbying sub-contractor Capital Counsel LLC, to lobby the relevant congressional leaders and the White House to secure the requisite export licences,” Turkish media ahvalnews reported today.
The ATAK T-129 helicopter is powered by two T800-4A engines manufactured by LHTEC, a joint venture between the American firm Honeywell and the British company Rolls-Royce. The US is reportedly holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.
Following delay in delivering 30 ATAK helicopters, Ismail Demir, Undersecretary for Defence Industry of Turkey had stated on January 6, 2020, “Pakistan has agreed to give us another year (to deliver the helicopters). We hope we will be able to develop our indigenous engine soon to power the T129. After one year, Pakistan may be satisfied with the level of progress in our engine program, or the US may grant us the export license.”
Turkey Hires Washington Lobbyist to Help Clear Helicopter Sale to Pakistan

LHTEC T-800 4a engine @RollsRoyce
In June this year, TAI revealed the prototype of a locally-made engine for the ATAK T-129 helicopter. The hiring of lobbyists is indicative that the new engine may not make it to Pakistan’s 1 year deadline which is only 5 months away.
In 2018, TAI signed a $1.5 billion agreement to sell a batch of 30 T129 choppers which is billed as Turkey’s single biggest arms export deal. Pakistan has kept an option of buying the Chinese Z-10 helo should the Turkish deal not materialize.
According to contract documents filed in the US, Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor will be paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 “to conduct meetings with all relevant Committees in Congress, including meetings with the Chairmen, Ranking Members and the members of Senate Foreign Relations Committee and House Foreign Affairs Committee to ensure United States legal and governmental compliance for the sale of helicopter parts for the T129 ATAK helicopter to the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps (PAAC) or to any other third party”.
Additionally, Greenberg Traurig has been hired by the Turkish government to provide general lobbying services worth $1.538 million in 2020 alone, to secure the export licence Turkish Aerospace needs from July 15 to November 15, with an option to extend for additional seven month periods. The initial period of the contract reflects the timing of the US presidential election, ahvalnews said.

Turkey Hires Washington Lobbyist to Help Clear Helicopter Sale to Pakistan

Pakistan to buy Viper Helicopters From the US
The US Arms Export Control Act requires the White House to notify Congress of arms sales that exceed $25 million. The Notification allows members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (SFRC) and the House Foreign Affairs Committee (HFRC) an opportunity to scrutinize defense deals and put a hold on objectionable sales.
Last week, US publication Defensenews reported that SFRC and HFRC members have been holding up defense sales to Turkey including the F-35 sales, F-16 upgrade and the T-129 engine deals as punishment for Turkey buying the Russian S-400 air defence system. SFRC Chairman Jim Risch and HFRC ranking member Representative Mike McCaul told Defense News that they are participating in the informal hold.
 
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your days of using usa equipment as front line weapons is coming to.end.

you will need to.fight with Chinese weapons mostly
unless your finances improve then may be Europe or Russia

tough times,you loved those f16s
 
your days of using usa equipment as front line weapons is coming to.end.

you will need to.fight with Chinese weapons mostly
unless your finances improve then may be Europe or Russia

tough times,you loved those f16s


The Chinese option is superb

China is pouring in hundreds of billions into its military every year

It provides Pakistan a incredible options of string free weapons supply


Honestly China must really hate India as it has repeatedly screwed India in multiple ways over and over again

Turkey was giving us great alternative options also but the T129 for the moment has a U.S engine and we will either have to go for Chinese option or wait for Turkish engine to mature either way we will ensure India cannot get away
 
I would like to record my thoughts on the matter.
In addition to all else the US decision needs to be seen as a commercial decision. The attack helo market is small and uptake even smaller. Why would the US WANT another competitor especially when it uses US engines? This move is commercial rather than any animosity towards Turkey or Pak lands.
Pakistan interest in T129 goes beyond just the platform. Favourable finamcing means the platform will become easier to buy. Most importantly this is tbe JF17 of the military aviation industry. A keyturn project that will start local manufacturing of helicopters in Pakistan. More than anything I think it is this prospect which no other helo provides which is why PAA has decided to go with it and will wait for the Turkish engine to mature if it can.
The J10ME will have to be an off the/shelf buy and does not do anything for setting up helo industry. Qith current cooling of tensions between Indo-Pak there is-time to wait it out.
Zulu debate is now at an end. Pak does not want to-pay for it and US does not want to release it and adjist cost agInst FMS funds.
A
 
I would like to record my thoughts on the matter.
In addition to all else the US decision needs to be seen as a commercial decision. The attack helo market is small and uptake even smaller. Why would the US WANT another competitor especially when it uses US engines? This move is commercial rather than any animosity towards Turkey or Pak lands.
Pakistan interest in T129 goes beyond just the platform. Favourable finamcing means the platform will become easier to buy. Most importantly this is tbe JF17 of the military aviation industry. A keyturn project that will start local manufacturing of helicopters in Pakistan. More than anything I think it is this prospect which no other helo provides which is why PAA has decided to go with it and will wait for the Turkish engine to mature if it can.
The J10ME will have to be an off the/shelf buy and does not do anything for setting up helo industry. Qith current cooling of tensions between Indo-Pak there is-time to wait it out.
Zulu debate is now at an end. Pak does not want to-pay for it and US does not want to release it and adjist cost agInst FMS funds.
A

The money is small potatoes. The real question is even simpler than that: how does allowing Pakistan access to such a potent force multiplier further US national interests?
 
your days of using usa equipment as front line weapons is coming to.end.

you will need to.fight with Chinese weapons mostly
unless your finances improve then may be Europe or Russia

tough times,you loved those f16s
I hope we transition to fighting with our own weapons developed from our own technologies. Let's stop latching onto this big power bias towards the US or China in our decision-making.

I'd rather fly JF-17s for 20 years longer than intended if it meant we could field the latest technology at-par with everyone else 20 years from now.

The Chinese made due with building variants of F-7s and Type 052/053 frigates while designing the J-10 and Type 054 in parallel. But when they got an offer to partner with someone to produce helicopters at home, they did that too.

I'd pay $10 B to buy the mentality that drove China to reach its current point before paying for any Chinese military hardware. We need to enrich our thinking, planning and foresight, and stop stressing over ad hoc situations to justify expensive imports.

Seriously, let's believe in Pakistan and Pakistanis.

I would like to record my thoughts on the matter.
In addition to all else the US decision needs to be seen as a commercial decision. The attack helo market is small and uptake even smaller. Why would the US WANT another competitor especially when it uses US engines? This move is commercial rather than any animosity towards Turkey or Pak lands.
Pakistan interest in T129 goes beyond just the platform. Favourable finamcing means the platform will become easier to buy. Most importantly this is tbe JF17 of the military aviation industry. A keyturn project that will start local manufacturing of helicopters in Pakistan. More than anything I think it is this prospect which no other helo provides which is why PAA has decided to go with it and will wait for the Turkish engine to mature if it can.
The J10ME will have to be an off the/shelf buy and does not do anything for setting up helo industry. Qith current cooling of tensions between Indo-Pak there is-time to wait it out.
Zulu debate is now at an end. Pak does not want to-pay for it and US does not want to release it and adjist cost agInst FMS funds.
A
Just completely contradicting myself earlier, but I wouldn't mind spending money on the 12-15-odd AH-1Zs. It has some niche capabilities (e.g., salt-erosion-proof) that would fit really well with the SSG and SSG Navy.

It's a broader discussion, but if we set-up a dedicated special forces command, it should operate 15-odd AH-1Zs plus 30-odd UH-1Ys, AC-235s (i.e., C235s equipped with ATGMs and 30 mm cannon), C235s, MALE UAVs, etc.

US and EU hardware in this case would also make sense in that we can use those for coalition support missions (thereby upping our stature and presence).

However, it would still be a niche purchase in my eyes, something in small numbers for a very specific purpose. In those cases, imports are fine because our industry (be it public or private) can't invest enough to support so small a need.

However, for wider armed forces needs, such as the mainstay attack helicopter or mainstay transport helicopter, we should go local.
 
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About BELL AH-1Z Viper option

1.
Hussain Haqqani was being vocal against delivery of BELL AH-1Z Viper to Pakistan as far back in 2015.


2. BELL did produce AH-1Z Viper for Pakistan Army:

Pakistan-Army-AH-1Z-delivery-692x360.png



3. But there was disagreement over payment method eventually:

The AH-1Z is technically available, but Pakistan insists on funding it using Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and Coalition Support Funds (CSF) – two assistance instruments the Trump Administration froze in 2017. Otherwise, Pakistan opted not to use its own national funds to finance its AH-1Z purchase (and it walked away from doing the same for eight approved F-16C/D Block-52+ in 2016).

LINK: https://quwa.org/2020/03/08/pakistan-may-revise-attack-helicopter-procurement-plans-2/

Could this be the reason why USA is upset?
Could this be the reason why USA refused to cooperate in Turkey-Pakistan dealing?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
@SABRE

FYI

@Dalit
@AsianLion
@Trango Towers
@Pakistan Space Agency

Please check post of @araz above as well. Situation is increasingly clear now.

Unless the US will block the properties of Pakistani ruling elite in US and Europe, they will continue to lick the boots of their foreign masters and keeps demoralizing the country!

We can never make our independent foreign policy, trade policy, economic policy as long as we have the children of our politicians, bureaucrats and generals settled in the Western countries enjoying on tax payers money on the name of "merit" scholarships and foreign programs!
Dear Sir,

There is no harm in striving for better education prospects. Thousands of Chinese availed American scholarships as well.
 

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