US approves sale of submarine-launched Harpoon Block II to Japan

[Zarvan]

An artist's rendering of a Boeing Harpoon Block II missile. The US government has approved the possible sale of UGM-84L submarine-launched Block II missiles to Japan. Source: The Boeing Company
The US Department of State has approved the possible sale of UGM-84L Harpoon Block II submarine-launched missiles to Japan.

The announcement was made on 13 May by the Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA), which said the approval covered the sale of the missiles and associated equipment, parts, training, and logistics support. The deal is estimated to be worth USD199 million.

The government of Japan has requested 48 UGM-84L Block II missiles to supplement its existing Harpoon missile capability, the DSCA said.

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) currently deploys UGM-84C and RGM-84C Harpoon missiles across its submarine and surface forces. The UGM-84L Block II missile is the submarine-launched version of the RGM-84L.

"Japan is one of the major political and economic powers in East Asia and the Western Pacific, and a key partner of the United States in ensuring peace and stability in that region", said the DSCA in its announcement. "It is vital to the US national interest to assist Japan in developing and maintaining a strong and ready self-defence capability," it added.

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US approves sale of submarine-launched Harpoon Block II to Japan - IHS Jane's 360
@Nihonjin1051

 

[hans]

Interesting why Japan buy submarine launched Harpoon...
Torpedo is the most effective weapon of conventional submarine..

An artist's rendering of a Boeing Harpoon Block II missile. The US government has approved the possible sale of UGM-84L submarine-launched Block II missiles to Japan. Source: The Boeing Company
The US Department of State has approved the possible sale of UGM-84L Harpoon Block II submarine-launched missiles to Japan.

The announcement was made on 13 May by the Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA), which said the approval covered the sale of the missiles and associated equipment, parts, training, and logistics support. The deal is estimated to be worth USD199 million.

The government of Japan has requested 48 UGM-84L Block II missiles to supplement its existing Harpoon missile capability, the DSCA said.

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) currently deploys UGM-84C and RGM-84C Harpoon missiles across its submarine and surface forces. The UGM-84L Block II missile is the submarine-launched version of the RGM-84L.

"Japan is one of the major political and economic powers in East Asia and the Western Pacific, and a key partner of the United States in ensuring peace and stability in that region", said the DSCA in its announcement. "It is vital to the US national interest to assist Japan in developing and maintaining a strong and ready self-defence capability," it added.

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(197 of 285 words)
US approves sale of submarine-launched Harpoon Block II to Japan - IHS Jane's 360
@Nihonjin1051

 

[Aepsilons]

Interesting why Japan buy submarine launched Harpoon...
Torpedo is the most effective weapon of conventional submarine..

The Harpoons are also exceedingly accurate. You should know that Japanese Subs such as the Soryu Class are armed with both Type 89 torpedoes as well as Harpoons, in addition to mines.

 

[gambit]

The Harpoons are also exceedingly accurate. You should know that Japanese Subs such as the Soryu Class are armed with both Type 89 torpedoes as well as Harpoons, in addition to mines.

The fact that he declared the torpedo to be the 'most effective' weapon mean he does not have a clue about the advantages between attacking via water vs via air, the targets involved, and which method offers the most chance of success.

 

[Aepsilons]

The fact that he declared the torpedo to be the 'most effective' weapon mean he does not have a clue about the advantages between attacking via water vs via air, the targets involved, and which method offers the most chance of success.

Sir @gambit ,

Many of the members here are civilians and very few and far between actually have military background like you and I, Sir.

Speaking of which, you were in the US Air Force , yes?

 

[gambit]

Speaking of which, you were in the US Air Force , yes?

Yes. For 10 yrs. And I have stick time on F-111 and F-16.

 

[hans]

Submarine lacks the capacity to detect enemy ships long distance away..
Submarine can usually see 20-30KM at most, while Harpoons can reach more than 100KM
most common tactic of submarines is wait for enemy into the trap and attack with torpedoes.
Harpoons on submarines does not make much sense..

The Harpoons are also exceedingly accurate. You should know that Japanese Subs such as the Soryu Class are armed with both Type 89 torpedoes as well as Harpoons, in addition to mines.

 

[gambit]

Submarine lacks the capacity to detect enemy ships long distance away..
Submarine can usually see 20-30KM at most, while Harpoons can reach more than 100KM
most common tactic of submarines is wait for enemy into the trap and attack with torpedoes.
Harpoons on submarines does not make much sense..

Great......A 'tactician' who did not do even basic research.

A submarine already have limited sensor ability, especially if it is below surface. But that is why the Harpoon is equipped with its own sensor and programming on potential targets. Attack by air is faster than by underwater and can be ideal in certain circumstances. So if a torpedo can use its own sensor to attack underwater, why not give the sub an additional advantage by giving it a missile that have its own sensor ?

 

[hans]

Do you do any research before that?
Do you know how far a harpoon can see against a ship on the sea??
Usually radar on anti-ship missile can see at most 30-50KM away.
If you are to attack a target beyond that distance, it need to be guided by other platform like planes, ships..

Firing a missile without seeing target but to let it search is still under research at this moment..
Not for harpoon that is for sure..

Great......A 'tactician' who did not do even basic research.

A submarine already have limited sensor ability, especially if it is below surface. But that is why the Harpoon is equipped with its own sensor and programming on potential targets. Attack by air is faster than by underwater and can be ideal in certain circumstances. So if a torpedo can use its own sensor to attack underwater, why not give the sub an additional advantage by giving it a missile that have its own sensor ?

 

[Transhumanist]

Firing a missile without seeing target but to let it search is still under research at this moment..
Not for harpoon that is for sure..

No, this is not research, it is an actual capability.

There are ways around sensor-restrictions. The USN, the only navy to do so on our planet, has a work-around called Cooperative Engagement Capability:

The US Navy -- Fact File: CEC - Cooperative Engagement Capability

While typically used for AAW, it's also being incorporated into ASUW and ASW, especially with the advent of long-range weapons such as the 1000 Km LRASM, which far out-ranges a ship's sensors.

Here's a basic AAW scenario:

And a more complex chain - this time featuring sensors:

Sensor restrictions aren't a problem anymore. A missile's own sensors or a ships are augmented by airborne, sea and space based weapons or even those on the land. Individual systems don't need to rely on their own sensors with CEC.

Submarine lacks the capacity to detect enemy ships long distance away.. Submarine can usually see 20-30KM at most

Talk to @SvenSvensonov about that, I'm sure he'll disagree.

 

[hans]

LRASM is still under development yet.
Even for LRASM, you still need to know rough position of target, send the LRASM to search target area with pre-record features.

the limit of sensor on the missile is quite obvious.
Missile itself can detect very limited distance like 30Km.
LRASM can fly 1000KM, long enough in air to search a big area.
While harpoons can only fly 100KM+, only a few minutes in air.

And if the area is clear out and your CEC platform can guide the harpoons without being intercepted, then why fire through submarines?
Airplane is a more ideal platform as it fly faster, can choose better position to fire missile.
surface ships also see much longer than submarines.
If your CEC platform might be intercepted, submarine might be hunted, your submarine need to remain stealth.
Firing a harpoon may require submarine to come to water surface, easily allow enemy to trace the submarine

No, this is not research, it is an actual capability.

There are ways around sensor-restrictions. The USN, the only navy to do so on our planet, has a work-around called Cooperative Engagement Capability:

The US Navy -- Fact File: CEC - Cooperative Engagement Capability

While typically used for AAW, it's also being incorporated into ASUW and ASW, especially with the advent of long-range weapons such as the 1000 Km LRASM, which far out-ranges a ship's sensors.

Here's a basic AAW scenario:

And a more complex chain - this time featuring sensors:

Sensor restrictions aren't a problem anymore. A missile's own sensors or a ships are augmented by airborne, sea and space based weapons or even those on the land. Individual systems don't need to rely on their own sensors with CEC.

Talk to @SvenSvensonov about that, I'm sure he'll disagree.

 

[gambit]

Do you do any research before that?

Yes...I used to work in that field after my USAF yrs. I showed this forum the basics of target detection while your Chinese friends did nothing to contribute.

Do you know how far a harpoon can see against a ship on the sea??
Usually radar on anti-ship missile can see at most 30-50KM away.

Wrong. Radar and visual horizon are variables -- height.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

I showed this forum that link many times in the past. You might learn something from it.

If you are to attack a target beyond that distance, it need to be guided by other platform like planes, ships..

Firing a missile without seeing target but to let it search is still under research at this moment..
Not for harpoon that is for sure..

Wrong again. There are two main ways to program a target.

The first method is if the target is fixed, like a building, and if you know the geographical coordinates. The missile can fly towards that fixed location using its own sensor -- most likely radar -- to avoid terrain and/or to fly over terrain, and towards the target. We already have cruise missiles that can do that. Terrain Following (TF) and Terrain Avoidance (TA) are common modes of flight. When I was on the F-111, I know what it was like to fly hard TF at 30 meters above surface, which includes hilltops.

The second method is if the target is not fixed but can be recognized via radar or other sensor signatures.

To a radar, a ship is composed of discrete surface electromagnetic radiators like the representation above. The missile's radar can be programmed to recognized certain pattern, the more sophisticated the programming the better, and home in on that target. The missile can also be designed to have Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) query/response capability to distinguish friendly ships from enemy ships.

You are not bringing anything new to this forum. Just because China have not done 'something' that does not mean we have not or cannot.

 

[hans]

I thought we were talking about modern warfare between two big countries
Using the modern weapons to bully the small countries, like US did in the past a few decades, can be quite easy.

modern AWCS can see at most 400KM with its super big radar.
modern fighter can see around 100 KM with its smaller radar(Usually around 1m diameter).
And you expect the smallest radar(30-40CM diameter) on missile can see very long even at a higher altitude?
Also a high flying missile with radar on is most ideal target for modern air defense system..

Yes...I used to work in that field after my USAF yrs. I showed this forum the basics of target detection while your Chinese friends did nothing to contribute.


Wrong. Radar and visual horizon are variables -- height.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

I showed this forum that link many times in the past. You might learn something from it.


Wrong again. There are two main ways to program a target.

The first method is if the target is fixed, like a building, and if you know the geographical coordinates. The missile can fly towards that fixed location using its own sensor -- most likely radar -- to avoid terrain and/or to fly over terrain, and towards the target. We already have cruise missiles that can do that. Terrain Following (TF) and Terrain Avoidance (TA) are common modes of flight. When I was on the F-111, I know what it was like to fly hard TF at 30 meters above surface, which includes hilltops.

The second method is if the target is not fixed but can be recognized via radar or other sensor signatures.

View attachment 223197
To a radar, a ship is composed of discrete surface electromagnetic radiators like the representation above. The missile's radar can be programmed to recognized certain pattern, the more sophisticated the programming the better, and home in on that target. The missile can also be designed to have Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) query/response capability to distinguish friendly ships from enemy ships.

You are not bringing anything new to this forum. Just because China have not done 'something' that does not mean we have not or cannot.

 

[gambit]

I thought we were talking about modern warfare between two big countries
Using the modern weapons to bully the small countries, like US did in the past a few decades, can be quite easy.

modern AWCS can see at most 400KM with its super big radar.
modern fighter can see around 100 KM with its smaller radar(Usually around 1m diameter).
And you expect the smallest radar(30-40CM diameter) on missile can see very long even at a higher altitude?
Also a high flying missile with radar on is most ideal target for modern air defense system..

The laws of physics -- real physics, not 'Chinese' physics -- have the larger body returns the greater amount of reflections and therefore will be radar visible at the greater distance. That mean the missile will see the ship sooner than the ship can see the missile.

Judging from your responses, I can tell that you are technically ignorant about this issue. Instead of rebuttals, you have only questions, as if you expect those questions to instills doubts in my arguments. I know this stuff better than you do. Let it go. Just like your fellow Chinese, you have nothing new to contribute to this subject.

 

[hans]

OK lets stop here.
You thought I am ignorant and I thought you are still in your F111 age..
We are argue on something meaningless

The laws of physics -- real physics, not 'Chinese' physics -- have the larger body returns the greater amount of reflections and therefore will be radar visible at the greater distance. That mean the missile will see the ship sooner than the ship can see the missile.

Judging from your responses, I can tell that you are technically ignorant about this issue. Instead of rebuttals, you have only questions, as if you expect those questions to instills doubts in my arguments. I know this stuff better than you do. Let it go. Just like your fellow Chinese, you have nothing new to contribute to this subject.