Untold stories of Kargil war . How officers/soldiers fought and died without Artillery/Air Support

Original Article is in urdu. Anyone can Translate the webpage in english and read it. Eye opening account of How Our officers and soldiers were killed by Indian artillery during withdrawl phase or when they attacked indian posts without artillery support from Pak Army

کارگ٠جÙÚ¯: ÙÛ âÙاپتÛâ پاکستاÙÛ ÙÙØ¬Û Ø¬ÙÚ¾ÛÚº Ùاپس ÙÛ ÙاÛا جا سکا - BBC News اردÙ

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www.bbc.com

 

[blain2]

Stick to the topic on hand. Don't turn this into another political gripefest. For that, use the "Siyasat" thread.

 

[blain2]

Recently I was having a discussion with a fairly recently retired officer who directly worked with Kayani, Raheel, and Bajra. According to him the most basic requirement for selection in the armed forces is to have below average IQ anything above is considered useless for us then we cannot train the person to our standard so you can imagine the intellectual capability and acumen. No wonder they are so short-sighted and double down on blunders

That is the case the world over. You recruit people with average intelligence because that is the mean of the population. That is how you get to recruit in large numbers. Secondly, when you recruit, you are trying to mould the intake to conform to a way of life. The smart Alecs have a tendency to question things that after generations have been proven to work a certain way. The military does not have the time to deal with the notions of these outliers.

There are above average officers and ranks alike. I personally know a few, who are fantastically intelligent and smart.

But just as well, there are dunces too and that is also a common phenomena across the militaries. But the dunces are good at following orders and accomplishing missions. They don't sit around over-analyzing each order.

As such a happy medium is needed. Nobody has ever known soldiering to be the job for the highly intelligent. You have a sprinkling of thinkers, highly intelligent people working with others who are average. It is like ANY other organization where you have your top tier, then the core and then bottom 10% etc.

 

[Kharral]

That is the case the world over. You recruit people with average intelligence because that is the mean of the population. That is how you get to recruit in large numbers. Secondly, when you recruit, you are trying to mould the intake to conform to a way of life. The smart Alecs have a tendency to question things that after generations have been proven to work a certain way. The military does not have the time to deal with the notions of these outliers.

There are above average officers and ranks alike. I personally know a few, who are fantastically intelligent and smart.

But just as well, there are dunces too and that is also a common phenomena across the militaries. But the dunces are good at following orders and accomplishing missions. They don't sit around over-analyzing each order.

As such a happy medium is needed. Nobody has ever known soldiering to be the job for the highly intelligent. You have a sprinkling of thinkers, highly intelligent people working with others who are average. It is like ANY other organization where you have your top tier, then the core and then bottom 10% etc.

& that’s exactly why Politicians, Diplomats & Statesmen are needed, valued and handed over the role to form policies.

 

[Signalian]

I see the main bone of contention as logistics.
@PanzerKiel

Heli support was next to nothing beyond a certain point. Hastily prepared pathways. Mules and humans carrying everything when offloaded from trucks.

 

[Goritoes]

I heard Pakistan was holding strategic points and chocking Indian supplies, if the operation was successful and AF came to rescue of our front line soldiers, A lot of things would've changed for Kashmir.

 

[Signalian]

Recently I was having a discussion with a fairly recently retired officer who directly worked with Kayani, Raheel, and Bajra. According to him the most basic requirement for selection in the armed forces is to have below average IQ anything above is considered useless for us then we cannot train the person to our standard so you can imagine the intellectual capability and acumen. No wonder they are so short-sighted and double down on blunders

Serving and retired officers hold their own opinions according to the circumstances they have faced and experiences they have went through. I have seen extremely gifted officers and jawans who are remarkably intelligent. One wonders what is that cream doing in the army. As for training a person, there is a reason for getting cadets and recruits after FA/FSc into the academy and training centers. The young minds can be molded as required. Its the age factor that gives the edge. The fantastic thing about military is that you will get to see all types of IQ levels. In selection process, there is always an IQ test for this purpose, but its there to select the ones who cross a certain threshold of IQ. Decades back, even middle class pass (8th grade) were accepted as recruits becoming soldiers, now the criteria has gone up.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I see the main bone of contention as logistics.
@PanzerKiel

Heli support was next to nothing beyond a certain point. Hastily prepared pathways. Mules and humans carrying everything when offloaded from trucks.

Logistics is often cited as the main reason. Which is not the case. Logistics had been carefully planned keeping in view the scope of the operation. However, once our own troops further deep, which was not part of the plan, the logistics naturally got stretched. And then we are talking about mountains, not plains where we can immediately replenish the supplies. Supply dumping in mountains takes months.

Mules are normally used for supplies in mountains. Helis can't be used because they risk of being shot down, like it happened to IAF at Tololing.

 

[Signalian]

Logistics is often cited as the main reason. Which is not the case. Logistics had been carefully planned keeping in view the scope of the operation. However, once our own troops further deep, which was not part of the plan, the logistics naturally got stretched. And then we are talking about mountains, not plains where we can immediately replenish the supplies. Supply dumping in mountains takes months.

Mules are normally used for supplies in mountains. Helis can't be used because they risk of being shot down, like it happened to IAF at Tololing.

What about planning a safe aerial corridor as far as it could be stretched with in AJK borders ?
Musharraf flew or went on foot inside IOK ?

 

[PanzerKiel]

What about planning a safe aerial corridor as far as it could be stretched with in AJK borders ?
Musharraf flew or went on foot inside IOK ?

He flew, heli, nap of the earth. Enforcing a safe aerial corridor requires air bases in the near vicinity which are not there. And aircraft as well which are always in short supply.

 

[VkdIndian]

However, once our own troops further deep, which was not part of the plan, the logistics naturally got stretched

Who decided to do that? Was it done without Musharraf in the loop?
If he was in the loop then this aspect should have been thought about since it proved to be one of the main factors against PA troops.

Musharraf never worked at contingencies. It appears that no one ever asked ‘what if”. One “what if” was India opening up on other fronts. 1965 wasn’t so far back to be forgotten so quickly.

If he had thought of contingencies then PAF and PN would have been looped in beforehand. Which he did at a late stage, just for informing them and not involving them.

 

[Signalian]

He flew, heli, nap of the earth. Enforcing a safe aerial corridor requires air bases in the heart vicinity x which are not there. And aircraft as well which are always in short supply.

FCNA and 12th ID should get bulk of PAA rotor transport fleet dedicated to them.

 

[White privilege]

Logistics is often cited as the main reason. Which is not the case. Logistics had been carefully planned keeping in view the scope of the operation. However, once our own troops further deep, which was not part of the plan, the logistics naturally got stretched. And then we are talking about mountains, not plains where we can immediately replenish the supplies.

I have heard it before.Why did the troops go deeper than planned?? Was it just brash heroism or the command approved it?? Didn't the commanders realise that the supply line was already stretched to the limit??

He flew, heli, nap of the earth. Enforcing a safe aerial corridor requires air bases in the heart vicinity x which are not there. And aircraft as well which are always in short supply.

Was it really necessary to make such a hazardous visit, just for the sake of visiting the frontline??
If it was a daring supply drop or troop insertion then it would have been understandable...

 

[TsAr]

I see the main bone of contention as logistics.
@PanzerKiel

Heli support was next to nothing beyond a certain point. Hastily prepared pathways. Mules and humans carrying everything when offloaded from trucks.

I think it was more to do with no air cover. IAF was initially not able to hit the bunkers effectively and they had to fly low, 2 migs got hit. The tide of the war turned when IAF got laser guided bombs and they were able to drop them with pin point accuracy, without the fear of PAF challenging them.

 

[Areesh]

Interestingly BBC article says Pakistan still holds some posts

Hummm

 

[Signalian]

I think it was more to do with no air cover. IAF was initially not able to hit the bunkers effectively and they had to fly low, 2 migs got hit. The tide of the war turned when IAF got laser guided bombs and they were able to drop them with pin point accuracy, without the fear of PAF challenging them.

A medium range SAM firing from AJK would have sufficed to provide AD umbrella for those troops sitting in IOK ?