Unraveling Bangladesh’s cabinet puzzle: Less of India and more of China?

[Skies]

So in these new days when you are very matured , what is your prescription on election system while you also admit that 2001 election was rigged too (unlike others who consider it as most fair ) , ( at least I respect you now as you admitted that 2001 was rigged ) ? Please share with us , so we can learn something .

You are taking me seriously. My opinions are noise mostly. And in reality my knowledge is vague and limited.

 

[VikingRaider]

You are taking me seriously. My opinions are noise mostly. And in reality my knowledge is vague and limited.

Actually I do not take most of things lightly . As honestly speaking , I believe in this proverb that , ' যেখানে দেখিবে ছাই , উড়াইয়া দেখ তাই , পাইলেও পাইতে পার অমুল্য রতন " . So I do not believe that we can not learn from each others . Fruitful discussion can make our knowledge rich IMHO . Although politicians will not care our opinions , but who knows if we start and then all start giving good opinion with tolerance , others will try to follow once ! Again , ছোট বালু কণা , বিন্দু বিন্দু জল , গড়ে তোলে মহাদেশ সাগর অতল " . Can you ( or any one ) please write those two proverbs in English so that others can read ,as I do not know these two proverbs in English.
@Skies

 

[Skies]

Actually I do not take take most of things lightly . As honestly speaking , I believe in this proverb that , ' যেখানে দেখিবে ছাই , উড়াইয়া দেখ তাই , পাইলেও পাইতে পার অমুল্য রতন " . So I do not believe that we can not learn from each others . Fruitful discussion can make our knowledge rich IMHO . Although politicians will not care our opinions , but who knows if we start and then all start giving good opinion with tolerance , others will try to follow once ! Again , ছোট বালু কণা , বিন্দু বিন্দু জল , গড়ে তোলে মহাদেশ সাগর অতল " . Can you please write those two proverbs in English so that others can read?
@Skies , I do not know the proverbs in English.

May be:

ছোট বালু কণা , বিন্দু বিন্দু জল , গড়ে তোলে মহাদেশ সাগর অতল = From little acorns come mighty oaks

 

[VikingRaider]

May be:

ছোট বালু কণা , বিন্দু বিন্দু জল , গড়ে তোলে মহাদেশ সাগর অতল = From little acorns come mighty oaks

Okay thanks , please try the first one too if possible.

 

[Skies]

Actually I do not take most of things lightly . As honestly speaking , I believe in this proverb that , ' যেখানে দেখিবে ছাই , উড়াইয়া দেখ তাই , পাইলেও পাইতে পার অমুল্য রতন " . So I do not believe that we can not learn from each others . Fruitful discussion can make our knowledge rich IMHO . Although politicians will not care our opinions , but who knows if we start and then all start giving good opinion with tolerance , others will try to follow once ! Again , ছোট বালু কণা , বিন্দু বিন্দু জল , গড়ে তোলে মহাদেশ সাগর অতল " . Can you ( or any one ) please write those two proverbs in English so that others can read ,as I do not know these two proverbs in English.
@Skies

Why you need politicians to listen you, rather make new politicians........ lol

 

[VikingRaider]

Why you need politicians to listen you, rather make new politicians........ lol

Lol ,yes that's the reason I always speak if good peoples can come to politics, maybe it can solve our problem.
But it's not easy until peoples will consider politics as dirty . Hasina already replaced her old ministers, let's see if Jatiya party or a reformed BNP can follow the same path.
I always prefer Mr Fakhrul Islam Alamgir. I still think if he will be chosen as BNP chairman, he can give a boost . As I am impressed by his 3.45 min video before election .
And in pakistan we saw muslim league is now two part, who knows even if BNP will break ( if others are not ready to replace khaleda tareq) and a new beginning is possible under his party. I always know that there are huge supporters of BNP in Bangladesh.
So now if in pakistan muslim league ( q) is vanished and muslim league ( N) is doing better, maybe we also can have hope.
Now everything is dependent on their hand. But I believe that Mr Fakhrul is really a good and visionary leader.
He is 70 now and I believe that he has the capability of making new leaders who can later replace the old .
And Khaleda and tareq is incapable doing so as they only belive in family dynasty.

After Hasina I seriously do not want any one from her family leading AL. Because I do not like family dynasty .

 

[Species]

You have valid point. Problem is, and talking in present tense, we are far in our journey and things have already happened. Unfortunately its repair work from here. The only way to avoid any massive unrest after she is gone is either she prepares someone like herself as replacement or take the country back to an absolutely democratical election process in the next term (which I think is unlikely).

So I share your concern but currently nothing is going to change. All we can do is hope Bangladesh reaches a strong economical position and some visionary leader takes it from there. We have to live with what we got now and make sure we dont go worse from there.

I doubt if she could prepare her successor to be as efficient as her simply because he wouldn't have the same experience as her; he would need to make mistakes. Besides, I don't see the similar charismatic personality of Sheikh Hasina among her prospective successors.

End of the day, we all know nobody is saint. For the dictators or authoritarian leaders, the people of the country are not the source of their power, hence, their first priority would lie elsewhere rather than the general people.

The only way forward is proper democratic process. For that to happen we need to get rid of the narrative that we could only choose one between development and democracy. By promoting this narrative, we are helping them to legitimize their authoritarianism.

They have to do some serious succession planning. I don't know if Joy can be a good leader. He may be a good technocrat but he's no rabble-rouser like his grand-dad from what I have gathered by hearing him speak.

I guess the govt. must start strengthening the political institutions and help the country return to proper democratic process, there is simply no better alternative to that. Hasina must realize that all her achievements will go down the drain if it doesn't end well after her. Now it's completely on her if she wants to leave on a high note or wants to go down as the villain in history.

 

[Nilgiri]

As I said , current West minister system already made hasina an elected pm, so she is not a dictator. Atleast according to our constitution she did nothing against democracy.

So its not against constitution to have mass rigging of people finding out their ballots already cast when they come to the booth? What recourse such people have? There is not even an investigation, because we all know where it will lead to.

There is no practical proof that other than few cases this vote is rigged, at least there is no solid proof.

BS. Averting eyes (because essentially thugs are coercing you) to not look at the proof does not mean its not there.

We only have seen a picture of BBC Bengali version and peoples say that this Bengali version is controlled by a AL guy.

Lot more than that. My friend has updated me. Its not good.

I do not blame you, tell me man when you move to Canada ? Firstly you are an Indian who was born in a democratic atmosphere, then moved to even a better place, so I do not expect that you will understand any practical situation of Bangladesh rather you focus on theory, it's natural for you.

Don't speak for me please like you know me...I did not move directly from India to Canada first of all (and have lived in pretty non-democratic country of different kinds too in between). I know full well of the practical situation in BD from my close friends (one who;s dad...a freedom fighter.... built up a big successful business there from absolutely nothing...so you can imagine details he has given to me on all kind of process and goings on inside Bangladesh society)...in fact we have discussed much on the parallels with certain Indian states even. If you want to dismiss everything as theory because it doesn't suit what you want....so be it. Like I said, you can learn things the hard way when it happens again....things that build up because you are just kicking the can down the road.

It is a gamble you are taking on BAL terms (they have internalised all the benefits) rather than BD people terms (they have outsourced all the risks to you lot, the people). How very nice of them..this is a great equal partnership for sure.

We common folks believe that it is rigged election, but does that really matter unless you can prove it?

Of course it really matters. Only when it really matters is when you look openly and plainly and find the proof needed to prove it....and get out of this broken system and fix it. Till then you just get herded into its feedlots....and you do not care to think what the final destination is....because you think only in the "now".

However @Nilgiri, if you honestly want my opinion, I would say proportional representation now looks better for Bangladesh, as I have no other way to show .

Like I said, the better systems is only an argument worth having (trust me there is problems with proportional representation too....everything has pros and cons) ONLY when the foundations (institutional credibility and strength) are rooted and strong.

 

[VikingRaider]

So its not against constitution to have mass rigging of people finding out their ballots already cast when they come to the booth?

I am slightly disappointed that after several tries I am unable to explain my position. I will try one more time, please read my message thoroughly.

I said you before that I never think that this election is not rigged, indeed it's rigged.
I just wanted to say that what can anyone do now if they leave no evidence ?
BNP tried to get information from grassroot about the rigging, but they failed to gather evidence .
They are trying though . Some say that there were no polling agents of BNP as BNP did not send any polling agent, and some say that AL kicked them out.
I voted early in the morning and I told you that I found nothing odd , neither my friends and family found.
But many common peoples specially lower working class ( aka rikhshawalas , auto rickshaw riders, bla bla bla) peoples were talking that their vote was casted . But not everyone said that though , as our house maid said that she voted although AL peoples wanted to stop her, but she forcefully casted her vote. Actually such peoples are too much disturbing and under mental control of policians that they can easily lie, considering that this lie will be good for the country, because the cadres of their leaders said so !!
Everything is too much confusing. Yet we know the nature of our country , mass rigging happened in 2001 and 2008 too even under caretaker govt, so naturally under a partisan govt the election was not going to fair we all knew that.
And we also believe that the election was another rigged election . I am just talking that if you want to file a case in court, then how can you prove that?

BS. Averting eyes (because essentially thugs are coercing you) to not look at the proof does not mean its not there.

That's why I said that no evidence left as evidence were vanished maybe. I have no way to know, still I and most of us believe that it's rigged.
And that's why in order to counter your argument, I just showed you that how our politicians manipulate our constitution.
First they make a field of rigging election, and then get super majority ( two thirds) and then make amendment in constitution, as it suits them.
That's why I said that if a better system is in the hand of pure bastards, then this system is not only unsafe but it backfire always.
Look at religions , why Muslims follow four fiqh schools? Because a religion is a path and sometimes so complicated that you can't even access in it by just reading translation of your native language.
Same goes for your scriptures like Vedas and mahabharat, ramayana , gita or others I do not know their names .
It take life time to study and becoming expert on such subjects. So if we common folks start reading it and get decision by ourselves, probably it will create chaos in society .
As you know what talibans and now isis is doing .
Abu bakar AL Baghdadi just manipulated our scriptures and declared himself caliph, same goes for mullah omar .
Now tell me if anyone will claim himself as avatar of God, will you believe them? No right? So such odd claims come when peoples either try to manipulate scriptures, or try to believe that they are wise enough to understand scriptures, so draw conclusion that what they are doing all are the commands of God, and as long as they are following the command, they are actually doing good for people.
And who are actually bastards ( like isis, AL qayeda and talibans) they just manipulate scriptures and use it for their personal benefits and brainwash peoples.
Now the same case is happening for our constitution, both parties are manipulating parliamentary system, and trying to show the world that they are doing according to democracy.
Does that make sense?
That's the reason I think why not we observe the lesser evil as currently there is no way for any fair election.
Either AL will rig , or if AL will try to be honest, BNP will rig and in the end it's rigging too.

You might ask that how BNP will rig since they are out from power from 10 years ? The answer country is polluted by politics. There are lost of govt employees support BNP and they are even in administration and police too, they are just tamed by govt . Govt has no power to expell themselves from job before their retirement time, you know that. And if AL resigned before election , they will be active and manipulate the caretaker govt and will give us a rigged election for BNP Jamat . Now they are silent because of fear. ! So case will be the same actually !
That's the reason peoples do not care much as they are aware about the infection that can't be healed like this .
What we need, we need to purify our system.
We are going under a a dirty system and if here we want to get ourselves out, we need to compromise.
Let lesser evil destroy the bigger evil, then at least we can fight against lesser evil.
We cannot fight against two evils at once.

What we have to do right now? Do we really have any other option but to remain silent and observe 5 more years until one evil side completely destroyed, so that we can raise our voice against other evil?

Maybe only 22 seats still Jatiya party is the main opposition now. Why can't we wait till next election, let's see what jatiyo party says after 2023 election .

Take my words, AL will not let BNP survive if they do not remove it's evil leadership , as that leadership will cost the life of Hasina. Hasina almost died in 2004 grenade attack, so there is no way she is going to give any chance to khaleda and tareq, you would also not give the chance if you were the victim. BNP ( actually khaleda and tareq) Jamat wanted to end the line of our founding father sheikh mujibur Rahman by killing Hasina in 2004.

And if in this 5 years BNP choose new leadership or just broke like pml in pakistan was broken into two then one part ( of BNP) will end it's enmity and malignity to Hasina.
And also Jatiya party can have good chance to be stronger in grassroot, so we may have 3 strong parties in future.
So surely AL will allow BNP to survive, but not khaleda zia or tareq.
So now we have no other way to watch next 5 years! After all we have good reason as we only have complain against BNP leadership, not with BNP.
And also problem with militant jamat who can literally make Bangladesh as another Afghanistan under talibans .
So in order to prevent that we have no other way left but to remain silent .
That's the reason I said that I can compromise for short time in the case about democracy ( so that we an purify it) , as although I admire it dearly, still it can literally destroy us because of evil leadership of BNP and also unholy alliance with militant jamat islami.

So I hope you understand my position. Atleast I tried to make you understand as best as I could.
I am afraid that I am unable to express myself better than that.
Thank you a lot for this discussion .
And also regards.
@Nilgiri.

 

[Nilgiri]

I am slightly disappointed that after several tries I am unable to explain my position. I will try one more time, please read my message thoroughly.

I said you before that I never think that this election is not rigged, indeed it's rigged.
I just wanted to say that what can anyone do now if they leave no evidence ?
BNP tried to get information from grassroot about the rigging, but they failed to gather evidence .
They are trying though . Some say that there were no polling agents of BNP as BNP did not send any polling agent, and some say that AL kicked them out.
I voted early in the morning and I told you that I found nothing odd , neither my friends and family found.
But many common peoples specially lower working class ( aka rikhshawalas , auto rickshaw riders, bla bla bla) peoples were talking that their vote was casted . But not everyone said that though , as our house maid said that she voted although AL peoples wanted to stop her, but she forcefully casted her vote. Actually such peoples are too much disturbing and under mental control of policians that they can easily lie, considering that this lie will be good for the country, because the cadres of their leaders said so !!
Everything is too much confusing. Yet we know the nature of our country , mass rigging happened in 2001 and 2008 too even under caretaker govt, so naturally under a partisan govt the election was not going to fair we all knew that.
And we also believe that the election was another rigged election . I am just talking that if you want to file a case in court, then how can you prove that?

That's why I said that no evidence left as evidence were vanished maybe. I have no way to know, still I and most of us believe that it's rigged.
And that's why in order to counter your argument, I just showed you that how our politicians manipulate our constitution.
First they make a field of rigging election, and then get super majority ( two thirds) and then make amendment in constitution, as it suits them.
That's why I said that if a better system is in the hand of pure bastards, then this system is not only unsafe but it backfire always.
Look at religions , why Muslims follow four fiqh schools? Because a religion is a path and sometimes so complicated that you can't even access in it by just reading translation of your native language.
Same goes for your scriptures like Vedas and mahabharat, ramayana , gita or others I do not know their names .
It take life time to study and becoming expert on such subjects. So if we common folks start reading it and get decision by ourselves, probably it will create chaos in society .
As you know what talibans and now isis is doing .
Abu bakar AL Baghdadi just manipulated our scriptures and declared himself caliph, same goes for mullah omar .
Now tell me if anyone will claim himself as avatar of God, will you believe them? No right? So such odd claims come when peoples either try to manipulate scriptures, or try to believe that they are wise enough to understand scriptures, so draw conclusion that what they are doing all are the commands of God, and as long as they are following the command, they are actually doing good for people.
And who are actually bastards ( like isis, AL qayeda and talibans) they just manipulate scriptures and use it for their personal benefits and brainwash peoples.
Now the same case is happening for our constitution, both parties are manipulating parliamentary system, and trying to show the world that they are doing according to democracy.
Does that make sense?
That's the reason I think why not we observe the lesser evil as currently there is no way for any fair election.
Either AL will rig , or if AL will try to be honest, BNP will rig and in the end it's rigging too.

You might ask that how BNP will rig since they are out from power from 10 years ? The answer country is polluted by politics. There are lost of govt employees support BNP and they are even in administration and police too, they are just tamed by govt . Govt has no power to expell themselves from job before their retirement time, you know that. And if AL resigned before election , they will be active and manipulate the caretaker govt and will give us a rigged election for BNP Jamat . Now they are silent because of fear. ! So case will be the same actually !
That's the reason peoples do not care much as they are aware about the infection that can't be healed like this .
What we need, we need to purify our system.
We are going under a a dirty system and if here we want to get ourselves out, we need to compromise.
Let lesser evil destroy the bigger evil, then at least we can fight against lesser evil.
We cannot fight against two evils at once.

What we have to do right now? Do we really have any other option but to remain silent and observe 5 more years until one evil side completely destroyed, so that we can raise our voice against other evil?

Maybe only 22 seats still Jatiya party is the main opposition now. Why can't we wait till next election, let's see what jatiyo party says after 2023 election .

Take my words, AL will not let BNP survive if they do not remove it's evil leadership , as that leadership will cost the life of Hasina. Hasina almost died in 2004 grenade attack, so there is no way she is going to give any chance to khaleda and tareq, you would also not give the chance if you were the victim. BNP ( actually khaleda and tareq) Jamat wanted to end the line of our founding father sheikh mujibur Rahman by killing Hasina in 2004.

And if in this 5 years BNP choose new leadership or just broke like pml in pakistan was broken into two then one part ( of BNP) will end it's enmity and malignity to Hasina.
And also Jatiya party can have good chance to be stronger in grassroot, so we may have 3 strong parties in future.
So surely AL will allow BNP to survive, but not khaleda zia or tareq.
So now we have no other way to watch next 5 years! After all we have good reason as we only have complain against BNP leadership, not with BNP.
And also problem with militant jamat who can literally make Bangladesh as another Afghanistan under talibans .
So in order to prevent that we have no other way left but to remain silent .
That's the reason I said that I can compromise for short time in the case about democracy ( so that we an purify it) , as although I admire it dearly, still it can literally destroy us because of evil leadership of BNP and also unholy alliance with militant jamat islami.

So I hope you understand my position. Atleast I tried to make you understand as best as I could.
I am afraid that I am unable to express myself better than that.
Thank you a lot for this discussion .
And also regards.
@Nilgiri.

We have to go our separate ways Atlas on this issue (though we agree on some of it too). You live in Bangladesh and it is up to the people living there to act or not act according to what they see as important in the end. I can only give my opinion on it (having studied quite deeply how human beings work in general when it comes to power and politics in long enough time frames and cycles worldwide in very similar ways).

I don't live in BD in the end, neither am I from there....but I hope you at least learned a few things that may be relevant from my perspective.