Unarmed HONG KONG LAW & CRIME POLITICS & PROTEST Hong Kong protester shot by police with live round

[vi-va]

I only presented one aspect dimension of Communism which I find has a link to HK today. That is back in China's revolution period, there were thugs calling themselves communists who were unneccessarily violent in behaviour towards average people who just wanted to survive and live their live without too much political involvement because they didn't believe in the revolutionary struggle or cared for the system it replaced. Of course this is one aspect. I have ignored good things too. Anyway that's another topic. We cannot deny there are similarities between HK thugs and the mentality that existed in China during Mao's time.

It will happen, good or bad, unavoidable. There were sin on this land, too much sin. We betrayed our motherland, corrupted, buried our past glory. Our nation was invaded, our women were raped, we have numerous civil wars, hundreds of millions people died. The evils will exist for a long time. It's unavoidable, sooner or later.

But we survived, our civilization survived, we are the only civilization survived in past 5000 years, same language, same race, same land.

The greater good which communism brought, is the survival of civilization.

China will not exist forever in Anglo-Saxon dominated world order, we are still fighting for it.

 

[Nilgiri]

We will notice Chinese government until now have not stepped into Hong Kong directly. It is a situation totally out of control already but they dare not do this because foreign governments again will criticize and use to call Chinese government evil for a long time.

I think if all media in the world is faulty in a way different to China's which is faulty by design, the end result is the same except we already know Chinese media is state controlled so everyone already knows to doubt and think more. India media is honestly not better but for different reasons. Same with American media. But people in these places think their media is independent of government forces and business interests. This is simply not true and only the more intelligent people in these places will know this. So for the free media topic, I don't think it matters. American and English media reporting is so biased and often is just lies and directed by their political parties for example Fox and right wing media and CNN with left wing politics. All media is faulty. Some are hiding their faults well where Chinese media faults are worn outside and most educated people believe me doubt some things very much but of course where there is clearly something going on in HK and people are hurting innocents, then it's not probably a lie.

We need to understand that the reason China is letting HK burn now is because now most neutral world people know what's going on. Look at recent youtube videos and comments and Russian thinking this is USA doing something like color revolution similar to Ukraine and other parts of the world. Most people beginning to see the HK thugs as the bad guys and Chinese being victims in HK and Chinese government not using violence and rather letting HK independent justice and leaders sort it out themselves just like the one country two system policy they promised until 2040s.

Now we start to see many even British journalist be critical of HK thugs during interviews. The English media is trying to tell them they are not Western by their actions. They want to tell the world, this is not what we support and not what we are representing. On the outside they begin to abandon these people but protesting is a part of democracy. Targeting innocent people and damaging things is not. But these thugs are very similar to the early communist revolutionary people. Same unreasonable same violence same conditions. Like terrorists.

Of course one can say well Communists get what they deserve but today we are of different people and even our government is different. Our innocent people who are living in mainland many in the past had to go through this revolution and restart our lives. Now we have a good functioning government that is so different from Mao's communist revolutionaries from more than 70 years ago. So again we are victims of another group of violent crazy stupid assholes.

So we support today's Chinese government. It works for us and works well. It is not revolutionary or unreasonable like the earliest Communist government and is returning to ancient Chinese thinking of how government should be like. Totally from examination and proven ability but authoritarian at heart. Because only a good parent can bring up a good child. All other examples are failures or just simply too lucky. We do not support chaos and anarchy which is represented by HK thugs who are just the political opposite of early Communist thugs.

@Nilgiri

Bro 99% of those criticizing China in same ole repetitive unfair (boring) way, simply dont know the history of China and how it had central control + merit based bureaucracy (with strict exams) developed over many centuries at long stretches...and it's as Chinese as Chinese Tea.

They simply dont know this....how is there supposed to be a balanced initial discussion then?

 

[vi-va]

Bro 99% of those criticizing China in same ole repetitive unfair (boring) way, simply dont know the history of China and how it had central control + merit based bureaucracy (with strict exams) developed over many centuries at long stretches...and it's as Chinese as Chinese Tea.

They simply dont know this....how is there supposed to be a balanced initial discussion then?

Bro, do you think western democracy suitable for India. Or do you think India can apply Chinese alike system also?

 

[Viva_Viet]

Bro 99% of those criticizing China in same ole repetitive unfair (boring) way, simply dont know the history of China and how it had central control + merit based bureaucracy (with strict exams) developed over many centuries at long stretches...and it's as Chinese as Chinese Tea.

They simply dont know this....how is there supposed to be a balanced initial discussion then?

CN would collapse in 1979 if US didnt let Deng lick her azz. CN make money just by export the products to the West.

Nothing special abt usless nation like CN. Low IQ,corrupted leader, cowar military force ( easy to fall into VN traps in 1979 wars).CN chaos ( in 2023) is just the matter of time when US keep slaping harder sanction.bro

Bro, do you think western democracy suitable for India. Or do you think India can apply Chinese alike system also?

Both system suck, both r loser in VN war.no nid to learn anything from those garbages.

 

[vi-va]

CN would collapse in 1979 if US didnt let Deng lick her azz. CN make money just by export the products to the West.

Nothing special abt usless nation like CN. Low IQ,corrupted leader, cowar military force ( easy to fall into VN traps in 1979 wars).CN chaos ( in 2023) is just the matter of time when US keep slaping harder sanction.bro


Both system suck, both r loser in VN war.no nid to learn anything from those garbages.

If bad mouth works, you will be super power in 2020 also. Keep doing your job, I like Pho.

 

[Nilgiri]

Bro, do you think western democracy suitable for India. Or do you think India can apply Chinese alike system also?

Right now this works for India. I would say Federal Republic is best system (its compromise, flexible but structured and can be improved over time)....because we do not have one unified system like China had for so long since the original genesis (with long term political intent) by Qin emperor.

The main, most relevant problem (ongoing today but less degree as before) we encountered recently (in hindsight) was bad choice of economic system in initial cold war period (and it got worse + stagnant in 2nd half of cold war). This was also reactionary from the psyche we had developed (in "elite" especially) from colonial period....because historically India always has enjoyed trading with Rome, China, Persia, Indochina, Indonesia and other powerful peers and regions....but the openness with those means we were eventually grossly unprepared and taken advantage of by those that seek pure domination only (who formed and arrived later on scene)....and there is very long term costs from this that have impact today. I am sure you know what I mean.

So it is somewhat understandable (to close off+shut out others.... for fear of squandering independence, esp when western thinkers kept predicting India gonna keep breaking up further after the initial partition on religion)...and that psyche will of course linger quite a while today and even future. There was also badly thought out priorities i.e no mass education drive, barefoot doctor program etc like China...and again thats some what long story why that was slow to do (stemming from certain dependency psyche again brought on by colonial elite system as only way - which in colonial period caused massive drop in indian literacy level in both number and functionality so that captive market is assured for industrializing britain).

We set things partially in better way once cold war ended....another period of turbulence came politically for a while (creating wide chasm between corporates/liberals and working-class/conservatives and too much lop-sidedness) , and now things are stabilizing so we can focus on getting things done at the basic rural area like Deng did in late 70s - 80s....but all the while keep the federal system that did get us this far and developed some noteworthy institutions...and also some good progress states (becaue there was enough variety allowed in approach by federalism) that others can learn from....and are indeed learning now....esp with pressure from internal migration and feedback loop for change.

If lot of history didnt happen as it did, and say India developed a core writing system and protected its core area culturally (and created bureaucracy/polity based on that)....maybe yes a centralised bureaucratic heritage could have developed. But this is tinkering with too many hypotheticals again too far back. What we inherited in 1947, we learn from, and we make do best we can with current system that is finally gaining a more resilient shape and form now as more demons inside our psyche are slowly exorcized. It can be messy and noisy and you get push and pull because of it (and you see some of it, mostly one side, in this forum)....given the immense number of people involved.

 

[Viva_Viet]

If bad mouth works, you will be super power in 2020 also. Keep doing your job, I like Pho.

Of course I still work 10-15 hours and no Sunday off untill lunar new year, and I bet that No Cnese working as same as me now cos u guys dont have jobs during trade war.

Bcs u guys dont have enough good jobs, so no more "miracle grow" for CN. Ur future is just simply too dark.

Btw, I just finised my breakfast and will work till 7pm.see u

 

[Nilgiri]

CN would collapse in 1979 if US didnt let Deng lick her azz. CN make money just by export the products to the West.

Nothing special abt usless nation like CN. Low IQ,corrupted leader, cowar military force ( easy to fall into VN traps in 1979 wars).CN chaos ( in 2023) is just the matter of time when US keep slaping harder sanction.bro

 

[Kyle Sun]

The police officer should have shot him in the head.

 

[vi-va]

Right now this works for India. I would say Federal Republic is best system (its compromise, flexible but structured and can be improved over time)....because we do not have one unified system like China had for so long since the original genesis (with long term political intent) by Qin emperor.

The main, most relevant problem (ongoing today but less degree as before) we encountered recently (in hindsight) was bad choice of economic system in initial cold war period (and it got worse + stagnant in 2nd half of cold war). This was also reactionary from the psyche we had developed (in "elite" especially) from colonial period....because historically India always has enjoyed trading with Rome, China, Persia, Indochina, Indonesia and other powerful peers and regions....but the openness with those means we were eventually grossly unprepared and taken advantage of by those that seek pure domination only (who formed and arrived later on scene)....and there is very long term costs from this that have impact today. I am sure you know what I mean.

So it is somewhat understandable (to close off+shut out others.... for fear of squandering independence, esp when western thinkers kept predicting India gonna keep breaking up further after the initial partition on religion)...and that psyche will of course linger quite a while today and even future. There was also badly thought out priorities i.e no mass education drive, barefoot doctor program etc like China...and again thats some what long story why that was slow to do (stemming from certain dependency psyche again brought on by colonial elite system as only way - which in colonial period caused massive drop in indian literacy level in both number and functionality so that captive market is assured for industrializing britain).

We set things partially in better way once cold war ended....another period of turbulence came politically for a while (creating wide chasm between corporates/liberals and working-class/conservatives and too much lop-sidedness) , and now things are stabilizing so we can focus on getting things done at the basic rural area like Deng did in late 70s - 80s....but all the while keep the federal system that did get us this far and developed some noteworthy institutions...and also some good progress states (becaue there was enough variety allowed in approach by federalism) that others can learn from....and are indeed learning now....esp with pressure from internal migration and feedback loop for change.

If lot of history didnt happen as it did, and say India developed a core writing system and protected its core area culturally (and created bureaucracy/polity based on that)....maybe yes a centralised bureaucratic heritage could have developed. But this is tinkering with too many hypotheticals again too far back. What we inherited in 1947, we learn from, and we make do best we can with current system that is finally gaining a more resilient shape and form now as more demons inside our psyche are slowly exorcized. It can be messy and noisy and you get push and pull because of it (and you see some of it, mostly one side, in this forum)....given the immense number of people involved.

The current system can comprise and be flexible, but for how long? India has huge population, and industrialization means progress and chaos. There will be winner vs losers during that process. I am not sure India can deal with it under current political structure.

Industrialize a small country is one thing, industrialize India is completely different. The west will try to lure India to counter China, but they will not give India real help at all. They simply don't want to see another Asian Giant, none white, none Christian, none Anglo-Saxon, none Greece-Rome culture heritage, none English. Hindu may be better accepted than Chinese-Confucian, but still alien.

Federalization can keep a loose country, but also easier to break up, due to the diversity and inner conflicts. Sectarianism will divide people by religions, race, color of skin, languages, culture, or anything you can think of.

I am amazed that India elites handled all those issues above, it means a lot to me and inspired me. But people are less patient and money hungry when literacy rate goes up, especially easy to access information from internet. Election spoiled voters, and pursue short term benefit, the social foundation will decay, and eventually create uncontrolled chaos.

 

[Nilgiri]

The current system can comprise and be flexible, but for how long? India has huge population, and industrialization means progress and chaos. There will be winner vs losers during that process. I am not sure India can deal with it under current political structure.

Industrialize a small country is one thing, industrialize India is completely different. The west will try to lure India to counter China, but they will not give India real help at all. They simply don't want to see another Asian Giant, none white, none Christian, none Anglo-Saxon, none Greece-Rome culture heritage, none English. Hindu may be better accepted than Chinese-Confucian, but still alien.

Federalization can keep a loose country, but also easier to break up, due to the diversity and inner conflicts. Sectarianism will divide people by religions, race, color of skin, languages, culture, or anything you can think of.

I am amazed that India elites handled all those issues above, it means a lot to me and inspired me. But people are less patient and money hungry when literacy rate goes up, especially easy to access information from internet. Election spoiled voters, and pursue short term benefit, the social foundation will decay, and eventually create uncontrolled chaos.

I answer this bit later when I got some time friend. This is interesting topic.

 

[OIO]

I answer this bit later when I got some time friend. This is interesting topic.

Please remember China is the only time proofed big country.

 

[Nilgiri]

Please remember China is the only time proofed big country.

Depend what you mean by "country" and "nation" in first place....there are lot of layers of definition, context and use.

But I will write up better for next post. You can read and see my take on it and debate from that.

 

[BL33D]

What will US police do when rioters try to grab his gun?
What will UK police do when rioters try to grab his gun?
What will the police of the rest of the world do when rioters try to grab his gun?

Don't forget, just hours ago, a man was burnt alive by rioters, the police definitely doesn't want to be burnt as well, or shot by the rioters.

It seems Youtube keep deleting those videos which against those rioters. Here is another one

Same thing with worse consequences happen in Kashmir, stones are pelted, grenades are thrown, terrorists and locals try to snatch weapons. But hey, its wrong only when it happens to us !!! Pakistanis think those kind of people are freedom fighters but miscreants in HongKong.

 

[Nilgiri]

@viva_zhao @GeraltofRivia @Char @rott et al:

Friend, its getting lot off topic I suppose now. This will take long time to explain in detail needed...but let me give you guys few pointers from my perspective:

India has "Federal Republic" and (controlled + defined) "democracy" operating within that framework. However like I mentioned before, its not a copy paste kind of deal (from say western). It is defined by Indian constitution which is very unique document (and there is good, bad and grey in my opinion here). This means a local optimized version of republic-democracy has taken shape in India (over time, especially after learning what is good and what is bad in relation to implementation on Indian society which is itself very diverse like you mention).

Just like China has its version of "People's republic" and "communism" operating within that one and that would take a long discussion to discuss of how its peculiar to only China's case (if one is to argue what it was at conception compared to downstream today).

I mean is communism, marxism etc originally a Chinese created thought? Similarly its the case for Indian republic + democracy, it adapts to earlier structures we had over time.

For China case, it make sense (central authority + consolidation especially after long period of weakness and tumult) for reasons I mentioned before...but in short and in my opinion....a single core language I feel is the original root case that "Han" identity grew around over centuries and became very solidly entrenched....especially for political purpose (given no matter how the broader culture/influences may have evolved with time and whatever invaders may have taken over the highest political level, there was simply too much significant inertia from "Han" identity that always counterbalanced these things). Basically all 3 major river systems (yellow, yangtse, pearl) of China were unified into this "core hearth"....so a resilience was gained historically.

Contrast with ROC (Taiwan) from post 1949 period too. You will notice for good long time they also had one party rule and central-authoritarianism...and likely if they won civil war, structurally China at large would still have same kind of central control system.

Indian case has some similarities in larger cultural realm....but it did not have this relative level of language identity/uniformity in the geographic space it occupies today. Simply put we have lot more river systems in the geography (Big ones in north like Indus, Ganges, Brahmaputra...but also different ones in the central area and south) and thus lot more intrinsic variance to account for. Thus one single language system (for everything else to take shape above it) never came about like it did in China. It is why Indian empires could exert large size and reach...but when they retreat like tide, there was no long term permanence to consolidate (politically) again.

This is also why the "Indian elites" were also able to handle the competing forces....given the cultural gestation of our system to always accomodate for these variances, yet still unite on larger themes of culture/contact/influences/civilisation etc.

This also brings in what is a country vs nation. To me they are distinct (but of course related), a country is just the current political set up occupying to the boundaries it reaches with other countries. The PRC is a country. Republic of India is a country. etc etc

But to me when we talk in long historical terms and contexts, the more apt term is "nation"....because different political entities that take the mold of "country"...that is: empires, kingdoms etc come and go....but what lasts is the "nation"....and above that is "civilisation" (but that starts to get to be too broad generally). To me Chinese (Han) and Indian nations are quite different...there is no real equivalent like "Han" bounded by language system (and augmented with other markers.... to the extent found for example in Indian case. This also enters a very long conversation on the breaking up of Indian "nation" by foreign invasions. Because simply put your last two foreign dynasties (Mongol and Manchu...and they are seperated in time by long stretch of local Ming) were integrated into Chinese culture by and large (there was no ingredients sown for ground based cultural clash among the people, given you are simply Han always). It simply does not quite compare to Islamic dynasties in India, the very short tenure our local Marathas had in between (to contrast with Ming) and then British colonial period. The effects on nation for that is quite different. This is why federal republic+democracy is our best bet here....too centralised system will not work simply.

As to your query as to undue western influence that comes about by this....well it is akin to how much Russian/Soviet influence also came about by PRC adopting marxist-communism under Mao....and great friendship during the first period etc....and compare that to situation in the middle of PRC modern history and what the current situation of PRC is etc.

Simpy put, over time the sino-soviet split happened (because of big differences arising) and then later Deng reformed and opened up China in different direction to Mao's original conception.

Similar kind of thing happened when we went to war with Pakistan in 1971 and Americans sent a carrier fleet to try threaten and dissuade us (even though we are democracy and they are non-democratic dictatorship at that time... and we had valid reasons to conduct that war given their brutal crackdown on one wing of their country)...and maybe even take action against us, if it were not for Soviet counter-pressure on them. It was low point and very telling lesson for us on what West in the end cares about and what its influences ultimately seek to do. Though of course in 1991 we opened up and started to reform economically....in similar "cat can be white or black as long as it catches mice" that China did decade before...but its pragmatic decision after extreme economic insulation clearly not working.

It is really too bad that Sino-Indian relations got off on bad start that lingers because of the border areas with Tibet. But its time to keep making improvements and cooperation each year as best we both can...given the worst episodes are shrinking in rear view mirror each day on highway and we instead choose to focus on better opportunity ahead.

So trust me, we know exactly what deep hypocrisy of the west can be, and it wont be forgotten. We chart our own way and look to our internal references and needs first rather than blindly copy stuff....we are too big...and now with this system in place for cpl long generations, we see what strengths and weaknesses (as it applies to us) there are and enhance the former and address the latter.

It is really the only way rather than worry too much about setting up everything perfectly at start....because "perfection" is both only judged in hindsight and depends on the individual definition too...and what context he is aware of to judge it.