UEFA admits Kosovo as 55th member, entry to 2018 World Cup next

[vostok]

This is romanticism, not history.

"President Pál Schmitt stated that he considered being under Ottoman rule for 200 years as an opportunity. He added that had his country remained under the rule of another nation, his country would have been forced to convert to another religion and speak another language and thus would ultimately be assimilated.

According to Hungarian author Kald Nagy; Hungarian documents show that Ottoman Empire collected tax 7 million akçe and invested 21 million akçe in Hungary."

As what former president said, had Balkans and Central Europe remained under the rule of another nation, they would simply have been forced to convert to another religion and speak another language and thus would ultimately be assimilated.

Those are countries and how long they remained under Ottoman rule, order:

Bulgaria: 545 years
Greece: 400 years
Serbia: 539 years
Montenegro: 539 years
Bosnia: 539 years
Crotia: 539 years
Macedonia: 539 years
Slovenia: 250 years
Romania: 490 years
Hungary: 200 years
Moldova: 490 years
Ukraine: 308 years
Georgia: 400 years
Kosovo: 539 years

We have seen what Schmitt means in the discoveries of Christianity around the world.
Calling people names and a traitor for their free will is barbaric.

What would you say if, for example, Azeris or Tatars converted to Christianity during Russian Empire's times? You would call them "traitors" or would you say that it's "their free will" to change religion?
Ukraine has never been part of the Ottoman Empire. Steppe land, which now belong to Ukraine until the end of the 18th century were settled by Tatar and Nogai nomads.
I am not trying in any way to judge or condemn the Ottoman Empire. It was a great country and a great enemy of Russia. Enemies must be respected. I just admire the Serbs, who have been under occupation for several centuries and have not betrayed our faith.

 

[Penguin]

USSR signed a pact of non-agression with Germany much later than Poland, Romania, England, France. We did it only after France and Britain rejected an alliance against Hitler with us.
Western Europeans work for the Reich at the same time when Russians fought in the war of survival.

As I indicated, you got your Molotov-Ribbentrop remark after you started with gratuitous insults. Don't dish out if you can't take in.

If you want, I can bring a lot of numbers about the production of military equipment in Western countries. In little Belgium alone, the Germans captured 350,000 trucks - almost as much (400000) as the Allies gave to the USSR during 4 years of the war (and this is the biggest contribution of the Lend-Lease).

And how many of these captured trucks were subsequently actually used by the Germans, against the Soviet Union? And how does that compare to the (many thousends of) tanks, artillery, trucks, aircraft etc that Germany did captured from the Soviet Union in 1941? And of that captured Soviet equipment, how much did the Germans actually use? (I venture a guess: far more than of the Belgian equipment because at least the Soviet equipment could hold up during winter.)
But to summarize: such numbers mean little by themselves.

Older brothers of both my grandfathers were killed in the war. The elder sister of my grandfather was hijacked to work in Germany as osterbayter.

And, unlike you, I did not initiate any insults against their memory.

Both my father and his younger brother had to go into hiding (helped by the resistance that didn't exist according to you) to avoid being shipped off to Germany as slave labor (it's 'Ost-Arbeiter' by the way). His sister was busy stealing, forging and illegally redistributing rationing cards for the non-existant resistance. She was also a courier for the non-existent resistance. Another brother (merchant marine) evaded to England via Sweden and then did convoy duty for the remained of the war, shipping amongst other things Lend-Lease goods. Their father, my grandfather, because he belonged to the colonial establishment, was locked up and kept a hostage, intended to be shot in reprisal should any armed resistance (oh, that's right, that didn't exist) occur e.g. an assassination of known collaborator(s) or particularly nasty SD and SS personnel. Then there my American uncles, at least one of which fought all the way from the beaches of Normandy to the Ardennes and into Germany (does Huertgen forrest ring a bell?).

I feel a personal insult when countries surrendered to Reich almost without a fight try to pretend they fought against Hitler.

Funny how that only comes up after the fact, not during the earlier discussion. I.e. this is BS.

You have nothing common with Victory. England and the United States are related to it. And Serbs too. But you are not.

Then again, I never claimed I (or rather, my country) did, unlike you. Incidentally, who's ships and merchant marines do you think shipped all that lend-lease materiel to russia?

What you say here and in previous posts has NOTHING the do with an actual defence or motivation for your uncalled for insulting remark re. Western Europe. The discussion wasn't even about a topic anywhere near the above. It simply was uncalled for. Man up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Netherlands_during_World_War_II

 

[bsruzm]

I am not trying in any way to judge or condemn the Ottoman Empire. It was a great country and a great enemy of Russia. Enemies must be respected.

We both were, still are.

 

[vostok]

As I indicated, you got your Molotov-Ribbentrop remark after you started with gratuitous insults. Don't dish out if you can't take in.


And how many of these captured trucks were subsequently actually used by the Germans, against the Soviet Union? And how does that compare to the (many thousends of) tanks, artillery, trucks, aircraft etc that Germany did captured from the Soviet Union in 1941? And of that captured Soviet equipment, how much did the Germans actually use? (I venture a guess: far more than of the Belgian equipment because at least the Soviet equipment could hold up during winter.)
But to summarize: such numbers mean little by themselves.


And, unlike you, I did not initiate any insults against their memory.

Both my father and his younger brother had to go into hiding (helped by the resistance that didn't exist according to you) to avoid being shipped off to Germany as slave labor (it's 'Ost-Arbeiter' by the way). His sister was busy stealing, forging and illegally redistributing rationing cards for the non-existant resistance. She was also a courier for the non-existent resistance. Another brother (merchant marine) evaded to England via Sweden and then did convoy duty for the remained of the war, shipping amongst other things Lend-Lease goods. Their father, my grandfather, because he belonged to the colonial establishment, was locked up and kept a hostage, intended to be shot in reprisal should any armed resistance (oh, that's right, that didn't exist) occur e.g. an assassination of known collaborator(s) or particularly nasty SD and SS personnel. Then there my American uncles, at least one of which fought all the way from the beaches of Normandy to the Ardennes and into Germany (does Huertgen forrest ring a bell?).


Funny how that only comes up after the fact, not during the earlier discussion. I.e. this is BS.


Then again, I never claimed I (or rather, my country) did, unlike you. Incidentally, who's ships and merchant marines do you think shipped all that lend-lease materiel to russia?

What you say here and in previous posts has NOTHING the do with an actual defence or motivation for your uncalled for insulting remark re. Western Europe. The discussion wasn't even about a topic anywhere near the above. It simply was uncalled for. Man up.

Deployment of military orders in the European countries by the Imperial arms control (on October 1, 1942 3-month plan (October, November, December 1942)):
A total amount of 3 billion 791 million Reichsmarks. Moreover:
France - 1900 million
Netherlands - 634 million,
Belgium - 484 million,
Denmark - 134 million,
Norway - 86 million,
Serbia - 14 million,
Greece - 8 million
Earlier, in the period from January 1, 1942 to September 30, 1942 Reich received from European military production to 3.25 billion Reichsmarks:
Weapons - 89 million,
Ammunition - 120 million,
Cars - 298 million,
Combat and transport aircraft - 859 million,
Combat and transport vessels - 399 million,
Means of radio and telephone numbers - 146 million,
Optical fire control equipment - 31 million,
Uniforms and military equipment - 376 million,
Armoured infantry fighting vehicles - 196 million,
Other military property and equipment - 133 million,
Sapernoe equipment and instruments - 414 million,
Other equipment and instruments - 190 million.
In total, about 5,000 factories worked in Europe for Reich war macnine. In France, 80% of aircraft enterprises, 40% of the steel industry, 70% - of the metalworking industry. The total cost of military products produced in Europe for the Reich in 1942 amounted to over 4 billion marks.
These are general figures. I also have information on the countries and specific weapons.

 

[Penguin]

Deployment of military orders in the European countries by the Imperial arms control (on October 1, 1942 3-month plan (October, November, December 1942)):
A total amount of 3 billion 791 million Reichsmarks. Moreover:
France - 1900 million
Netherlands - 634 million,
Belgium - 484 million,
Denmark - 134 million,
Norway - 86 million,
Serbia - 14 million,
Greece - 8 million

Earlier, in the period from January 1, 1942 to September 30, 1942 Reich received from European military production to 3.25 billion Reichsmarks:
Weapons - 89 million,
Ammunition - 120 million,
Cars - 298 million,
Combat and transport aircraft - 859 million,
Combat and transport vessels - 399 million,
Means of radio and telephone numbers - 146 million,
Optical fire control equipment - 31 million,
Uniforms and military equipment - 376 million,
Armoured infantry fighting vehicles - 196 million,
Other military property and equipment - 133 million,
Sapernoe equipment and instruments - 414 million,
Other equipment and instruments - 190 million.
In total, about 5,000 factories worked in Europe for Reich war macnine. In France, 80% of aircraft enterprises, 40% of the steel industry, 70% - the metal industry. The total cost of military products produced in Europe for the Reich in 1942 amounted to over 4 billion marks.

So what? I mean, countries on the Atlantic and North Sea coast got blitzed in 1940 by Germans driving - amongst other - Czech built Pzkfw 35(t) and 38(t). What does that say about the Eastern European Czech?

What else do you expect in an occupied country. I'm sure any industry surviving in occupied Eastern Europe (including Poland, Ukraine, parts of Russia) was put to work for the Germans too. It proves .... zip. It is in fact totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. So good luck with that.

 

[vostok]

So what? I mean, countries on the Atlantic and North Sea coast got blitzed in 1940 by Germans driving - amongst other - Czech built Pzkfw 35(t) and 38(t). What does that say about the Eastern European Czech?

What else do you expect in an occupied country. I'm sure any industry surviving in occupied Eastern Europe (including Poland, Ukraine, parts of Russia) was put to work for the Germans too. It proves .... zip. It is in fact totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. So good luck with that.

Of the 32,000 small, medium and large enterprises in the occupied part of the Soviet Union the Germans inherited less than 300. The rest were either destroyed by the Red Army or were evacuated east of the Urals and to Central Asia.
I am agree, Czechs were excellent workers for Germans and devotedly worked for the benefit of the Reich up to 9th May, 1945.
The territory of the Soviet Union occupied by the Reich made less production than small General Government of Poland.

 

[Penguin]

Of the 32,000 small, medium and large enterprises in the occupied part of the Soviet Union the Germans inherited less than 300. The rest were either destroyed by the Red Army or were evacuated east of the Urals and to Central Asia.
I am agree, Czechs were excellent workers for Germans and devotedly worked for the benefit of the Reich up to 9th May, 1945.
The territory of the Soviet Union occupied by the Reich made less production than small General Government of Poland.

Again, totally irrelevant to the discussion, for exactly the same reasons.

Anyway, in essence, you blame the developed industrial societies of Western Europe for not in 1939 and 1940 deciding on a scorched earth policy, assuming that these non-totalitarian states would actually want and need to inflict that on their populations and that they would be able to see that through. Mind you, this is before all the horrors and attrocities and 'total war' had even started etc.

You're also assuming that Western European countries have the necessary 'strategic depth' to move their industries elsewhere safe (without slave labor). Where to, huh, smartaleck?

And you are counting Czeckslovakia as Western European?

I'm sorry but that is just so .... I can't even find a word that accurately describes the level of historical falsehood in this.

Bu hey, if that is what you've told yourself to justify behaving like a jerk, that's just fine with me.

 

[vostok]

Again, totally irrelevant to the discussion, for exactly the same reasons.

Anyway, in essence, you blame the developed industrial societies of Western Europe for not in 1939 and 1940 deciding on a scorched earth policy, assuming that these non-totalitarian states would actually want and need to inflict that on their populations and that they would be able to see that through. Mind you, this is before all the horrors and attrocities and 'total war' had even started etc.

You're also assuming that Western European countries have the necessary 'strategic depth' to move their industries elsewhere safe (without slave labor). Where to, huh, smartaleck?

And you are counting Czeckslovakia as Western European?

I'm sorry but that is just so .... I can't even find a word that accurately describes the level of historical falsehood in this.

Bu hey, if that is what you've told yourself to justify behaving like a jerk, that's just fine with me.

And I'm not saying that the Czech Republic - is not Eastern Europe. And I do not say, all the Eastern Europeans did resist to Hitler. Czechs behave like Western Europeans - have handed the country without a fight, and then worked humbly in the name of the Reich.

Google translate.
Austria supplied Germany 10 thousand tanks and armored vehicles, including the most powerful in the world of heavy self-propelled guns "Ferdinand" and "jagdtiger" 9000 aircraft, 17 thousand aircraft engines and more than 12 thousand guns of different calibers.

In total, France and the Czech Republic was given at the disposal of Hitler's about 10 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns and base machines to create them only their developments. This is almost twice as much as the official Reich allies Italy and Hungary, refill tank fleet of the coalition army only 6 thousand combat vehicles. It should not be a purely German and many of the other 43 thousand tanks. A fair portion of them came out of the workshops of Austria and the Czech Republic, and even more were manufactured there in part. For example, the tank hull and turret almost the entire war to be made on the Austrian factories "Böhler Brothers" and "Scheller Beckman" verhnedunayskih ironworks in Linz, the Czech company "Poldi" in Kpadno, French auto giant "Peugeot" and other European companies.
Thousands of tanks and self-propelled guns, formally considered a purely German, had parts manufactured in the occupied countries. For example, some components for light tanks T-II, T-III medium and designed on the basis of T-II 105-mm self-propelled howitzers "Wasp" issued in Warsaw.

European companies producing for the Reich and small arms. Dominated here Austrian and Czech companies, but their contribution made, and other partners. From Belgium to the 1940-1944 biennium. It received more than 200 thousand automatic pistols "Browning", as part of the occupation forces in France had issued after automatic rifle MAS36 surrender the country.
An extremely important role played by industry in the occupied countries and to supply Hitler's army artillery. With the German plants in the borders on 14 March 1939 (ie including Austrian) troops received 16 539 37 mm 9568 50 mm 23,453 75-mm cannon 2,500 anti-tank guns of a larger caliber 80 128 mm, and 463 40- and 75-mm anti-tank gun with tapered barrel. At the same time, from the Czech Republic to Germany and its allies in 1724 got a 37-mm and 755-mm artillery shells 47: Poland - 621 37-mm cannon, from Austria and France, respectively, 507 and 823 47-mm guns. More 3872 French 75 mm field guns were converted to anti. Thus, all to combat enemy armored vehicles were sent to 8128 guns victims of the occupation. Assuming about a hundred Belgian, Dutch and Norwegian, but excluding the limited use of 25-mm anti-tank guns of the French - 16.2% of the production factories of the Reich.
And i have a lot more numbers.

 

[Penguin]

And i have a lot more numbers.

Congratulations. I don't see how is matters one bit. Meanwhile, can you explain why you respond in this thread with a sneer about Western European countries, without any provocation? Do you want to be known as a serious poster or as a troll?