U.S. Approves Boeing C-17 Globemaster Sale to India

[jha]

In the long run we WILL have to opt for An-124..Presently we are just concentrating on replacing the An-32 and Il-76. But we have to keep in mind that with growing economy , we will require more cargo handling capacity .
So, in future we will need atleast 10 An-124,16 C-17,12 C-130 , 30 C27 and 100 MTA..

 

[tallboy123]

can there be any order of more An-124,C-17,C-130J...?

 

[jha]

can there be any order of more An-124,C-17,C-130J...?

We do not have any An-124 right now but the prospects of this plane look very bright..Some times back there was some rumors of US to participate in its revival..

Regarding follow on orders for C-17 and C-130:: No i dont think we will..
16 C-17 and 12 C-130 will be enough as of now..

 

[sancho]

In the long run we WILL have to opt for An-124..Presently we are just concentrating on replacing the An-32 and Il-76. But we have to keep in mind that with growing economy , we will require more cargo handling capacity .
So, in future we will need atleast 10 An-124,16 C-17,12 C-130 , 30 C27 and 100 MTA..

Way too much, they only plan with half the MRTA and I highly doubt they will buy that many C17s and AN 124s, because that would be a big overkill for IAF. As I emplained earlier, even the 16 x C17s would be too much in too low numbers.

 

[Archie]

why not buy 6 C-5 Galaxy apart from C17 Globemaster , instead of going for An124 since we alreadY intend to buy more C130 , C27 , C17
Another option could be that we could purchase 12 A400 tanker transport aircrafts , these can play the role of Mid air refuelers and Heavy lifters though unlike the IL76 and globemaster they cannot airlift MBT but can carry 2 Infantry Fighting Vehicle

 

[angeldemon_007]

According to what i have heard, Apart from these recent purchases of C17 and C130J, Indian will buy 40-50 MRTA. Even Russia is planning to stop the production of ANs. They will also concentrate on MRTA.

We need these heavy lift carriers to increase our speed of deployment in times of emergencies. In my opinion An-124 is useless in borders like that of JnK and even NE areas.

But yeah for carrying troops within our own country or even to our islands like Lakshdweep & AN islands, we can buy 3-5 of these but we have to be sure that Russia does not stop producing these carriers in the near future.

 

[jha]

Way too much, they only plan with half the MRTA and I highly doubt they will buy that many C17s and AN 124s, because that would be a big overkill for IAF. As I emplained earlier, even the 16 x C17s would be too much in too low numbers.

I was talking about the future need of Indian Armed forces..
Within 10-15 years we will start replacing An-32,Il-76 etc..We will need more strategic lift ability and for that more planes will be required..

 

[sancho]

According to what i have heard, Apart from these recent purchases of C17 and C130J, Indian will buy 40-50 MRTA. Even Russia is planning to stop the production of ANs. They will also concentrate on MRTA.

We need these heavy lift carriers to increase our speed of deployment in times of emergencies. In my opinion An-124 is useless in borders like that of JnK and even NE areas.

But yeah for carrying troops within our own country or even to our islands like Lakshdweep & AN islands, we can buy 3-5 of these but we have to be sure that Russia does not stop producing these carriers in the near future.

You need to differentiate here!

Light to medium class: Hawker, or AN 32 that IAF uses now (C27J, or RTA possibly in future) with a payload between 5 and 11t, mainly for cargo and troop transport.

Meduim class: C130J and MRTA with a payload around 20t, for cargo and troop transport, but also to carry light vehicles (jeeps).

Medium to heavy class: A400 and C-2 with 37t payload, for cargo, troop and medium vehicle (armored vehicles, trucks) transport

Heavy class: IL 76 and C17 with a payload of around 50 to 77t, for big cargo and heavy vehicle transport (MBTs),

Super heavy class: AN 124 and C5 with a payload of 120 to 150t, for big cargo and heavy vehicle transport, in higher numbers, to greater distances.


As I pointed out in my post on the last page, IAF don't have a real need for these super heavy transport aircrafts, because IAF has different requirements then other NATO countries for example. It would be good to have a small number of them (or to lease them like US and other NATO countries did in Iraq, or Afghanistan) during war times, but for the normal transport role inside of India, they are an overkill. Even the C17s will be too much for several roles and for simple troop, or paratrooper transports, medium class aircrafts are more than enough and offer even the same capabilities.

Troop / Paratroopers transport:

AN 32 - 50 / 42
C27J - 60 / 46
C130J-30 - 128 / 92 (MRTA should offer similar capacity)
A400M - 116 fully equipped troops / paratroops
C17 - 134 / 102


For our needs inside of India and the border regions, a higher numbers of medium and medium to heavy class aircrafts, would be the better choice, than many C17s, C5, or An124.

I was talking about the future need of Indian Armed forces..
Within 10-15 years we will start replacing An-32,Il-76 etc..We will need more strategic lift ability and for that more planes will be required..

Me too, the MRTA has more than twice the payload of an AN 32, that's why IAF don't need the same numbers of MRTAs to replace them and even the Russians are planing only with around 100 x MRTAs, that's why I don't think we will procure so many of them too. although I wouldn't mind it.
Personally I think IAF should go for a base of higher number workhorses of Saras, RTA and MRTA with as much indigenous content as possible and add specialised and more capable aircrafts only on the higher end in lower numbers.

 

[Dash]

As I pointed out in my post on the last page, IAF don't have a real need for these super heavy transport aircrafts, because IAF has different requirements then other NATO countries for example. It would be good to have a small number of them (or to lease them like US and other NATO countries did in Iraq, or Afghanistan) during war times, but for the normal transport role inside of India, they are an overkill. Even the C17s will be too much for several roles and for simple troop, or paratrooper transports, medium class aircrafts are more than enough and offer even the same capabilities.

Sancho I guess, in case of a unforseen escalation at the border, we have to quickly mobilize troops. GOI knows the fact that our borders roads are not very developed and what if in a tactical scenario you had to move troops immediately, you will need both IL 76s and C-17s, so I guess buying C-17 somewhere relataes to rapid troop mobilization and it will be a disaster if you cant mobilize cavalry then. But like you said in peace time, it will be an overkill.

 

[sancho]

Sancho I guess, in case of a unforseen escalation at the border, we have to quickly mobilize troops. GOI knows the fact that our borders roads are not very developed and what if in a tactical scenario you had to move troops immediately, you will need both IL 76s and C-17s, so I guess buying C-17 somewhere relataes to rapid troop mobilization and it will be a disaster if you cant mobilize cavalry then. But like you said in peace time, it will be an overkill.

Hi Dash!

Yes, rapid troop build up is the main point for C17, but as I showed in my last post, even way smaller C130Js, A400, or even MRTA should be able to carry a similar number and to land at unprepared airstrips, so there is no real advantage for the C17 here.
The bigger the load, the more useful the C17!

It can carry...
... more vehicles, more MBTs and more cargo, but just for moving troops, it is too much and too costly.

 

[Dash]

Hi Dash!

Yes, rapid troop build up is the main point for C17, but as I showed in my last post, even way smaller C130Js, A400, or even MRTA should be able to carry a similar number and to land at unprepared airstrips, so there is no real advantage for the C17 here.
The bigger the load, the more useful the C17!

It can carry...
... more vehicles, more MBTs and more cargo, but just for moving troops, it is too much and too costly.

Yes the more is better in that case then. In case we see some escalations. 10 C-17s, with IL 76s and all other transport will be real useful...I am sure we will use more IFVs and ICVs in C-17s initially to the front line and then others and C-17s will be used for troop build up in teh mean while.

But now comes the question, so if this is teh idea, then A400M somewhere close the price tag of C-17 was rejected by FM but C-17 was approved, where A400M could have done a dual role, high value target?? or they thaught a tanker is not that necessary or an overkill for such a scenario?...

 

[jha]

BTW if we really are looking at C-27 for replacement of An-32 then we better order atleast 50 of them and start a production line here in India..The facility can later be used to produce MTA ...C-27 will be an effective replacement for An-32..

 

[sancho]

But now comes the question, so if this is teh idea, then A400M somewhere close the price tag of C-17 was rejected by FM but C-17 was approved, where A400M could have done a dual role, high value target?? or they thaught a tanker is not that necessary or an overkill for such a scenario?...

From all known reports and the interview of the air chief, they never evaluated another aircraft than the C17.

BTW if we really are looking at C-27 for replacement of An-32 then we better order atleast 50 of them and start a production line here in India..The facility can later be used to produce MTA ...C-27 will be an effective replacement for An-32..

MRTA will replace AN 32, C27J could only be a stop gap, or addition but not in big numbers. AFAIK, IAF is not evaluating it, but BSF.

 

[jha]

MRTA will replace AN 32, C27J could only be a stop gap, or addition but not in big numbers. AFAIK, IAF is not evaluating it, but BSF.

Yes..But only if we can stick to the schedule..An-32 will start to retire from 2020 onwards..IFF we can have a replacement ready then there is no need. Otherwise we will be having big trouble in a really crucial time..

 

[sancho]

Yes..But only if we can stick to the schedule..An-32 will start to retire from 2020 onwards..IFF we can have a replacement ready then there is no need. Otherwise we will be having big trouble in a really crucial time..

MRTA is expected around 2015 and with all the commonality to IL 76 it shouldn't have much delays right?
As I said earlier, I hope for a turbo prob RTA below the MRTA for our forces, would be a good and cost-effective addition and I don't really understand why all our aircrafts should be jet aircrafts anyway.

This is how I would like to see our transport fleet:

Saras
RTA
MRTA

In higher numbers as workhorses, with as much Indian content as possible.


A400
A330

As multi role aircrafts, with parts of the production in India.


C130J-30
C17
Possibly a few AN 124

In smaller numbers, as specialised aircrafts for dedicated roles (special ops, heavy, or long range transport)


We should focus on indigenous aircrafts on the lower end in higher numbers and more capable aircrafts as co-developments, while foreign aircrafts should be added only in lower numbers and special roles. That's why I don't think a simple licence production of C27J would be a good idea, when we could go for RTA and MRTA instead.