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TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

But are we not getting waylaid in this intellectual masturbation?

It was a simple question.

Turning point of history of Indian subcontinent.

And 30 pages later I still do not know where either of you mental giants stands!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shout::shout::shout:


Bang bhai aap?

Quite simply, the advent of the British in India. I simply cannot imagine this India without them. Of all the chaps who invaded us, these were the only ones to leave a long lasting positive legacy. We were going to be invaded without doubt, we got lucky that the British were the ones who succeeded rather than the the Spanish or the Portuguese. Anyone who looks at South America will quickly understand why. The French might have not been much worse but we might all have been speaking french:). The British were responsible for the rejuvenation of the intellect of the majority of people, especially Hindus & opened India up to the world of science & democracy(even if indirectly) & made possible significant social reforms thus allowing Indians to have a vision for the country, one that didn't live in the 13th century. What we are today, both as an united nation & our ability to use the international systems to our advantage have all been bequeathed by the British. I believe that of all the turning points (and there are many), this was the one with the most far reaching impact.

P.S.:like all invaders, they had their negatives & I'm not making light of those but in balance I believe that this was the turning point for the Subcontinent
 
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He already expressed his. I remember becoming a self appointed judge to vote his as the best response. :)

There will always be many turning points for any civilisation but the advent of the British is, I believe the defining turning point, one that has allowed us to slowly work towards erasing the awful mistakes of the past.
 
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Quite simply, the advent of the British in India. I simply cannot imagine this India without them. Of all the chaps who invaded us, these were the only ones to leave a long lasting positive legacy. We were going to be invaded without doubt, we got lucky that the British were the ones who succeeded rather than the the Spanish or the Portuguese. Anyone who looks at South America will quickly understand why. The French might have not been much worse but we might all have been speaking french:). The British were responsible for the rejuvenation of the intellect of the majority of people, especially Hindus & opened India up to the world of science & democracy(even if indirectly) & made possible significant social reforms thus allowing Indians to have a vision for the country, one that didn't live in the 13th century. What we are today, both as an united nation & our ability to use the international systems to our advantage have all been bequeathed by the British. I believe that of all the turning points (and there are many), this was the one with the most far reaching impact.

P.S.:like all invaders, they had their negatives & I'm not making light of those but in balance I believe that this was the turning point for the Subcontinent

French girls are so much yummier than Brits man. :(

P.S. So are the Spanish come to think of it ..... :( :(

P.S. From my last visit to Brazil, so most definitely are the Portuguese man. :( :( :(
 
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With no comment.


The Saraswati River. This river supposedly disappeared 3900 YBP and it is mentioned in the Rig Vedas. However, no one really knows what river is being referred to here. The earliest references to the Saraswati are to the Helmand in Afghanistan. Later references are to a river in India. The Saraswati has always been a mystical river in the Vedas, and the Saraswati River theory endlessly pounded by Indians is widely considered to be a red herring.

The Egyptian pyramids had to have been built using ancient Indian mathematical knowledge. I’ve never heard this one before, but it sounds nuts. The algorithm for building the pyramids is supposedly found in the Vedas.

Astronomy. Supposedly, astronomical records prove that the Vedas date back to 6000 YBP. This theory is widely considered dubious.

The Rig Vedas do not mention silver or cotton. This is another one that they hammer on all the time. I’m not exactly sure what it is supposed to mean, but supposedly it puts an early date on the Vedas. The Vedas don’t mention all sorts of things.

The sages. Supposedly the sages are dated all the way back to 5700 YBP. But we have no way of dating any of these wise men and their eras. That’s purely speculative.

No mention of iron in the Vedas. Iron came to India 3200 YBP, so supposedly the Vedas must date before that. However, the word ayas is reportedly used in the Vedas for iron. Hindutvas dispute this. There is definitely mention of metals in the Vedas, and the Aryan migration can be dated from place to place in South Asia according to the introduction or iron, as the Aryans brought metalworking.

Indus Valley Civilization. The Harappans, or IVC, are said by one Indian author to be mentioned all throughout the Vedas. This would take the Vedas all the way back to 9000 YBP. This makes no sense. The time of Vedas, with horses, chariots, soma, stone forts and metals, simply screams 2nd millennium BC. The Harappan civilization was in ruins by the time the Aryans showed up, having declined 5000 YBP.

Dating of events in the Mahabharata is put by all sources at 5100 YBP. As Hindu culture is ahistoric in terms of dates and events, no one knows when these events took place.

The Aryan Invasion Theory was used by Hitler to commit genocide. There’s no evidence that this is true or that the Nazis cared much about it. At any rate, the Nazis used “Aryan” to mean “Germanic.”

Max Muller, one of the originators of the AMT, was hired by the British to erase Indian history. Why would the British bother to do that? It’s ridiculous.


A few things need to be said and clarified here seeing as how shocked some of you people are at the intense bullshit coming out of Hindutva sources.

First

Hindutva ‘scholars’ are usually a bunch of hatemongers at their core without any actual qualifications who generally quote dubious sources. The point is not to convince western readers (it would never work) but to dupe Indians living in the motherland and abroad. These individuals are extremely intellectually dishonest and in a place like India, they are taken quite seriously. These people play the communal card to consolidate the vote bank for the hard line and Hindu fascist BJP party. For example, some Hindutvadis have attempted to smear the name of Tipu Sultan by claiming he oppressed Hindus and Christians. After some looking up, I realized that many of these bogus claims came from a highly dubious source called the “Malabar manual” published in the 18th century by William Logan. The British would often circulate false reports about Muslim atrocities against Hindus to undermine Indian nationalism. However, the Hindutvadis have no qualms quoting such a document while also stating how evil the British were. Since the Hindutvadis were essentially doing the Brit’s dirty work, no major leader of theirs was ever prosecuted by the Brits (to my knowledge). Other genuine Indian patriots such as Bhagat Singh, Ram Prasad and Ashfaq were executed and killed in combat. Gandhi was assasinated by a member of the Hindutva RSS party, which is now the head organization of the ‘sangh parivar’ in India.

Here’s another amusing article about how the Muslim Qabaa was originally a Hindu temple
KAABA A HINDU TEMPLE TAKEN OVER BY MUSLIMS

Notice that the article bears the typical Hindutva touch by failing to quote any sources or using any references. Again, this is for the Indians’ benefit, not westerners.

“”"”"The article claims that the Om symbol appears in the Taj. I don’t know if it’s true, but what if it is? It’s a matter of historical record that many Moghul rulers tended to be as syncretist as it was possible to be while still identifying as Muslims. One of them <omitted> actually seriously explored creating his own religion.”"”"”"

That was Akbar, who created a hybrid Hindu/Islam religion called “deen-e-ilahi” The religion wasn’t very popular, but showed the Mogul’s commitment to pluralism and tolerance. Aurangzeb was the exception.

Now for Robert’s post

couple of points:

1) “”"I am not sure why Hindutvas want to push the dating the Rig Vedas back so far. Can anyone help me here?”"”"”"

You partially answered your own question in the following 2 paragraphs, however, remember the Hindutva rule of thumb: Hinduism IS indigenous to India. So even if there was an Aryan migration into India, they were merely balled over by this noble religion and converted into it, rather than introducing it.

2) “”"The Egyptian pyramids had to have been built using ancient Indian mathematical knowledge.”"”"

Another absurd claim, but there is a method to their madness. Hindutva initially began as a highly xenophobic and fascist ideology that has in the last decade also become extremely chauvinistic. It is not uncommon for these people to now take credit for the heritages of other peoples. Claims such as the Indians helped the Egyptians build the pyramids and that the Pre-Islamic Arabs were also Hindus (thus cementing the Hindutva view that Islam was opposed to Hinduism from the very start!) are now fairly common place in Hindutva literature.

3) “”"The Aryan Invasion Theory was used by Hitler to commit genocide.”"”

This last point is a shocking example of Hindutva duplicity. It’s common knowledge that the architects of the Hindutva, savarkar and Moonje were openly supportive of Nazism. In fact, Moonje even personally met up with Musolini in 1931 to get a first hand tutorial in fascism. This pro nazi policy has led some political analysts in recent decades to comment on the strange alliance between Hindutva and zionism.

I’m going to post again tomorrow if I have the time. I’ll post on Muslim Indian nationalism in your other thread. Indian Muslim nationalists have their share of crazies too, amusing, in a pathetic sort of way.

<omitted>

There is a very seminal and, if I may add, spectacular contribution that establishes continuity between the units of measurement used in the IVC, those used by Kautilya in the Arthashastra and those used in Varahamihira&#8217;s Brihat Samhita.

New Insights into Harappan Town-Planning, Proportions and Units, with Special Reference to Dholavira by Michel Danino - http://www.iisc.ernet.in/prasthu/pages/PP_data/paper2.pdf

Abstract:

Another Hindutva quack:

Michel Danino (b. June 4, 1956 at Honfleur), is a French&#8208;born Indian author who has been living in Tamil Nadu, India since 1977.[1]
He participated in the translation and publication of the works of Sri Aurobindo and of The Mother. Danino also edited India's Rebirth (a selection from Sri Aurobindo's works about India, first published in 1993, translated into nine Indian languages) and India the Mother. He engaged himself also for the preservation of tropical rainforest in the Nilgiri Hills. In 2001, he convened the International Forum for India's Heritage (IFIH) with the mission of promoting the essential values of India's heritage in every field of life.[2]
In The Invasion that Never Was (2000), he has criticized the "Aryan invasion theory" and its proponents, instead opting for the notion of "Indigenous Aryans". Danino asserts that Aryans are indigenous to India.
 
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^^^ most of the point here are crap and utterly non sense . I actually never heard some of them . LIke arabs were hindus or pyramid used ancient indian maths knowledge.

was wondering who are these people ? Making illogical claims :lol:
 
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French girls are so much yummier than Brits man. :(

P.S. So are the Spanish come to think of it ..... :( :(

P.S. From my last visit to Brazil, so most definitely are the Portuguese man. :( :( :(

Err.. you asked for the turning point in the history of the subcontinent, not the turning point for the friend in your pants.....:azn:
 
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French girls are so much yummier than Brits man. :(

P.S. So are the Spanish come to think of it ..... :( :(

P.S. From my last visit to Brazil, so most definitely are the Portuguese man. :( :( :(


Nice one doc - :lol: - but i disagree with you on Brazil - used to believe Brazil is best but then I saw Colombia and Venezuala.
 
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^^^ most of the point here are crap and utterly non sense . I actually never heard some of them . LIke arabs were hindus or pyramid used ancient indian maths knowledge.

was wondering who are these people ? Making illogical claims :lol:

You'll find them all over the Internet, some of them here as well. They are known as Internet Hindus. Their counterparts are Internet Muslims. There is one living example of an Internet Parsi.
 
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Nice one doc - :lol: - but i disagree with you on Brazil - used to believe Brazil is best but then I saw Colombia and Venezuala.

Argentina man.

At a conference there was this angel

In spects.

Man .......
 
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Err ... that was for people who can think. We know you can produce duck like noises.

At least I don't produce duck poop and announce that it is for people who can think. Is it entirely coincidence that every one of these authorities has no qualifications? No standing? Other than in your hearts and minds, of course.
 
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Argentina man.

At a conference there was this angel

In spects.

Man .......

Doc - Argentina is on my list. Meanwhile I am taking a trip this Feb to Peru(ofcourse with my wife) - Lima, Cusco,Machu Picchu and then spend few days in Mancora. Will weigh in on Peru as well. Heard they are great looking.
 
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At least I don't produce duck poop and announce that it is for people who can think. Is it entirely coincidence that every one of these authorities has no qualifications? No standing? Other than in your hearts and minds, of course.

(sigh) More ad-hominem lashing out. When will people learn to think for themselves.

As regards Joe's favorite "Eminent Historians": Folks who want a little glimpse into the minds of these eminences should read the first few pages of BB Lal's paper, cited a short while back. The link again - The Sarasvati (b.b. Lal).
 
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