TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

[Rusty]

Do you see me a great fan of Jinnah or Nehru or even Gandhi?

I believe we got Independence by charity from superpower licking its wounds and quite frankly having more important things on their mind.

Non violence my left you know what.

I don't really care who you cheer.
I am just saying that your hatred is misplaced. Instead of hating Muslims or Jinnah or Pakistan, the only person you should hate is Nehru.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hope you are not offended that you got my approval for that post.
Just one correction tho, there is no such thing as Indo-Aryan
The language the Aryans spoke was proto Indo-European, the offspring of which was Sanskrit in India.

It did hurt a bit; I choose my enemies more carefully than I do my friends, many of whom choose me

About the language bit, I read differently, but that was before most of the members here were born, thirty five years ago. Proto-Indo-European was the root language, root of them all, from which Indo-European itself was derived. That in turn gave rise to Indo-Iranian and to a number of root pre-European languages, including Anatolian, Greek, Italic, Gallo-Iberian Baltic-Slavic and Germanic. Indo-Iranian split into Iranian and Indo-Aryan.

Indo-Aryan, the language of the Vedas and much of the early collateral writing, the Brahmanas, Aranyakas, some of the original Upanishads. After it was codified and fixed in grammatical form by Panini, it became Classical Sanskrit.

Look it up if you don't believe me. I rather suspect disbelieving me is a cottage industry among you Internet Muslims, which makes you intellectual siblings of the Internet Hindus - umm, guru-bhais, if you get what I mean.

Most satisfying.

 

[Kazhugu]

All those deals by the Russians were done by treaty, so show me the treaty that the Aryans signed to give Indians these tech.
I can be just as pedantic as you

the point is no one has the proof...and recen genetic studies have conclusively proved the absence of any distinct race called aryans...im merely poking holes into your claims...im the skeptic here...and it is you who has to convince me beyond doubt that your hypothesis is the fact...got it ?

The difference between Pakistanis and Indians is that we know that Islam came here from elsewhere. We don't delude ourselves into thinking that Islam 100% indigenous to Pakistan. We know our history and we are proud of it.
The same cannot be said about you guys.

thats because its all recorded in stone...if given a chance you guys will claim that islam originated on the banks of indus...

 

[vsdoc]

I don't really care who you cheer.
I am just saying that your hatred is misplaced. Instead of hating Muslims or Jinnah or Pakistan, the only person you should hate is Nehru.

I don't really care whether you care.

I was replying to your post and telling you that I have a very different view to Independence and Partition from what a lot of you guys on both sides believe.

Jinnah was a bigot. Nehru was a philandering moron with his head up his arse most times. And Gandhi was a weak man.

 

[Hellraiser007]

I never said the tools in India and central asia were 100% the same. I said some thing like the chariot were introduced to India by the Aryans.

And I did provide evidence for the Aryans. The biggest evidence being linguistic. Aryans are the reason we have Sanskrit based north India and Dravidian based south India. and further proof of the invasion is that in Pakistan we have a small population that speak a Dravidian language. This means that at one point most of south Asia was Dravidian speaking, but once the Aryans invaded, they pushed them to south India. They were, however unable to extinguish a small pocket of Dravidian speakers in Pakistan tho.

And hey man, if it helps you preserve your identity and culture then feel free to believe what every you want.
Just don't expect the rest of us to partake in your delusions.

From the days of beginning India was home to migrants from North east and North west, before Islamic Invasions people who are migrated adopted the customs and culture of this land.
Chariots and other advancements have no evidence that they were invented in central asia.

I quoted the tools because they are the ones who stand testimony to ancient civilization.

Aryan is a hugely controversial term and there are various definitions for that " The word Aryan in Vedas means Noble" .

Our identity is already preserved if there is strong evidence that is true then we will accept it. Until then no need to discuss and about the myth of Aryan Invasion when the word Aryan was not defined properly.

 

[scorpionx]

All those deals by the Russians were done by treaty, so show me the treaty that the Aryans signed to give Indians these tech.
I can be just as pedantic as you

The difference between Pakistanis and Indians is that we know that Islam came here from elsewhere. We don't delude ourselves into thinking that Islam 100% indigenous to Pakistan. We know our history and we are proud of it.
The same cannot be said about you guys.

Our Culture and philosophical history flourished on the banks of Sindhu,Ganga and Narmada through the ages. Our culture has nothing to do with central asian nomads or to andronovs. We are not delusional,Thank you.

 

[Rusty]

the only linguistic proof you claim is the rig veda..and the claims are so anachronistic that one who really knew it would have this "evidence" with a truck load of salt.....

i remember a very good post by another poster Bang Galore regarding the contradictions/anachronism in the the dating if the rig veda, the date of the supposed arrival of the aryans and how this "biggest evidence" fails to stand the test of scrutiny,....

Last I checked I never gave any particular evidence, and I certainly didn't reffernce the rig veda. So either you can't read or you are having an imaginary argument in your mind and mistook me as part of that argument.

And I will tell you what, some of the smarted people on this planet are working on linguistics, unlike your swamis, linguistics is a real science. Heck Noam Chomsky is a linguists and he is 1000x smarter than you or I.


I can't do linguistics justice since I have only taken a few upper level university courses, but let me just give you sample.
Count to 5 in Hindu, and then count to 5 in English, and count to 5 in Chinese (look it up). Notice how your mouth moves when you count to 5, and tell me which ones are more similar to each other.

 

[Joe Shearer]

i thought the arrival/invasion/migration/whatever of aryan tribes are still in the stage of hypothesis and not promoted to as facts..so i would reserve my judgement on that.....

It is interesting to observe historiography being made up as we go along. The arrival-invasion-migration-whatever of Aryan tribes (no such thing existed, but don't let that bother your creative decomposition of history) was a consensually settled hypothesis, there being no architectural evidence to prove the point beyond doubt, and moved into disputed territory with the advent of the revisionist historians of the Hindutva school of history-making.

The opposite of what you think happened.

 

[Hellraiser007]

All those deals by the Russians were done by treaty, so show me the treaty that the Aryans signed to give Indians these tech.
I can be just as pedantic as you

The difference between Pakistanis and Indians is that we know that Islam came here from elsewhere. We don't delude ourselves into thinking that Islam 100% indigenous to Pakistan. We know our history and we are proud of it.
The same cannot be said about you guys.

What is this guy talking about?/

This Paksitani posts mirror image of his feelings.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Md. Ghori invasion only brought clash of cultures and civilizations.

A thousand others did. What, in your opinion, was so special about this one? And how did it specifically breed the clash of cultures and civlisations?

 

[Hellraiser007]

It is interesting to observe historiography being made up as we go along. The arrival-invasion-migration-whatever of Aryan tribes (no such thing existed, but don't let that bother your creative decomposition of history) was a consensually settled hypothesis, there being no architectural evidence to prove the point beyond doubt, and moved into disputed territory with the advent of the revisionist historians of the Hindutva school of history-making.

The opposite of what you think happened.

can you post some evidences of Aryan invasion ??

Kindly do not make it a religion based thread, this is about facts.

 

[vsdoc]

Joe come and play.

Try someone closer your own size.

 

[Hellraiser007]

A thousand others did. What, in your opinion, was so special about this one? And how did it specifically breed the clash of cultures and civlisations?

When did the culture invasion occurred prior to Islamic invasions??

 

[Black Widow]

My an ancestors were not forced to do anything.

Your whole post is wrong.

That u believe, In deep corner of your heart you know the truth, But you are trying to curtain it with black lie... Let the truth come out.. We all know how conversion was done in early ages...

The extreemists which are so cruel now (in 21st century), Imagine how cruel they would be in 6th to 16th century...

 

[Rusty]

the point is no one has the proof...and recen genetic studies have conclusively proved the absence of any distinct race called aryans...im merely poking holes into your claims...im the skeptic here...and it is you who has to convince me beyond doubt that your hypothesis is the fact...got it ?



thats because its all recorded in stone...if given a chance you guys will claim that islam originated on the banks of indus...

We have a saying in Science, "only fools believe in absolutes"
99.999% of science does not deal with concrete proofs.
We deal with imperfect information and do our best to make an educated guess based on logic.

Your precious genetic studies are useless in this case, no one is saying that they Aryans are the genetic backbone on India (it's the Austro-asians in fact), we are saying that a group of nomads came from central asia and invaded India. They gave India their language and certain technology. The proof of this theory is Sanskrit, which is part of the Indo-European language group. And things like the charriot that were never mentioned in India before the Aryans arrived.

And no, I don't have to convince you beyond a doubt, this is not a trial, this is science.

and the 2nd part is just too ridiculous to answer.