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TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

Basis for this assertion?


The presence of Black and Red Ware pottery in the bed of the supposed Hakkra/Ghaggra channel. Since Black and Red Ware is dated between 1200 BC and 900 BC, the drying up of the channel must have happened before 1200 BC.
 
The presence of Black and Red Ware pottery in the bed of the supposed Hakkra/Ghaggra channel. Since Black and Red Ware is dated between 1200 BC and 900 BC, the drying up of the channel must have happened before 1200 BC.

That's a point I have quoted elsewhere but the reason I asked is that the most common date is the 1800 BCE & starting the decline even earlier (2100 BCE). Some have put it even further back . So what was the reason for the 1300 BCE date?
 
The Aryans were a drop in the bucket and, like the Mughals, didn't affect the gene pool significantly. It was a cultural, not a demographic, conquest.

can u really substantiate ur words with proofs!!!

bro u are creating ur own alternative course of history based upon ur perceptions

and desperation to equate aryan invasion with that of islamic invasion

coz that will give u a chance to defend islamic invasion !!!
 
That's a point I have quoted elsewhere but the reason I asked is that the most common date is the 1800 BCE & starting the decline even earlier (2100 BCE). Some have put it even further back . So what was the reason for the 1300 BCE date?

The 1800 BC/2000 BC date is actually B. B. Lal's date, based on radio-carbon dating of something at Kalibangan. He forgets, or omits to mention what that object was. According to him, the riverbed dried up in 2000 BC, and therefore the Rg Veda needs to be dated earlier than that, perhaps much earlier than that, since the river might have taken up to five hundred years to dry up.

More than exaggerated, in my opinion; if we accept that his determination of the age of Kalibangan was well-conducted, we need not assign more than a hundred years to it being in full flow.

can u really substantiate ur words with proofs!!!

bro u are creating ur own alternative course of history based upon ur perceptions

and desperation to equate aryan invasion with that of islamic invasion

coz that will give u a chance to defend islamic invasion !!!


I don't think anyone is defending any invasion. Instead he is trying to make you see that the position and the actions that various parties took were more or less the same for both occasions.

I believe that is the correct position.
 
The 1800 BC/2000 BC date is actually B. B. Lal's date, based on radio-carbon dating of something at Kalibangan. He forgets, or omits to mention what that object was. According to him, the riverbed dried up in 2000 BC, and therefore the Rg Veda needs to be dated earlier than that, perhaps much earlier than that, since the river might have taken up to five hundred years to dry up.

More than exaggerated, in my opinion; if we accept that his determination of the age of Kalibangan was well-conducted, we need not assign more than a hundred years to it being in full flow.
.

What now? You don't even agree to this gentleman's claims of being an archaeologist ?:lol:

Anyway here is some more bad news, from another source.

Climate change led to collapse of ancient Indus civilization, study finds

A new study combining the latest archaeological evidence with state-of-the-art geoscience technologies provides evidence that climate change was a key ingredient in the collapse of the great Indus or Harappan Civilization almost 4000 years ago. The study also resolves a long-standing debate over the source and fate of the Sarasvati, the sacred river of Hindu mythology.

Once extending more than 1 million square kilometers across the plains of the Indus River from the Arabian Sea to the Ganges, over what is now Pakistan, northwest India and eastern Afghanistan, the Indus civilization was the largest—but least known—of the first great urban cultures that also included Egypt and Mesopotamia. Like their contemporaries, the Harappans, named for one of their largest cities, lived next to rivers owing their livelihoods to the fertility of annually watered lands.

"We reconstructed the dynamic landscape of the plain where the Indus civilization developed 5200 years ago, built its cities, and slowly disintegrated between 3900 and 3000 years ago," said Liviu Giosan, a geologist with Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) and lead author of the study published the week of May 28 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. "Until now, speculations abounded about the links between this mysterious ancient culture and its life-giving mighty rivers."

Today, numerous remains of the Harappan settlements are located in a vast desert region far from any flowing river. In contrast to Egypt and Mesopotamia, which have long been part of the Western classical canon, this amazingly complex culture in South Asia with a population that at its peak may have reached 10 percent of the world's inhabitants, was completely forgotten until 1920's. Since then, a flurry of archaeological research in Pakistan and India has uncovered a sophisticated urban culture with myriad internal trade routes and well-established sea links with Mesopotamia, standards for building construction, sanitation systems, arts and crafts, and a yet-to-be deciphered writing system.

"We considered that it is high time for a team of interdisciplinary scientists to contribute to the debate about the enigmatic fate of these people," added Giosan.

The research was conducted between 2003 and 2008 in Pakistan, from the coast of the Arabian Sea into the fertile irrigated valleys of Punjab and the northern Thar Desert. The international team included scientists from the U.S., U.K., Pakistan, India, and Romania with specialties in geology, geomorphology, archaeology, and mathematics. By combining satellite photos and topographic data collected by the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM), the researchers prepared and analyzed digital maps of landforms constructed by the Indus and neighboring rivers, which were then probed in the field by drilling, coring, and even manually-dug trenches. Collected samples were used to determine the sediments' origins, whether brought in and shaped by rivers or wind, and their age, in order to develop a chronology of landscape changes.

"Once we had this new information on the geological history, we could re-examine what we know about settlements, what crops people were planting and when, and how both agriculture and settlement patterns changed," said co-author Dorian Fuller, an archaeologist with University College London. "This brought new insights into the process of eastward population shift, the change towards many more small farming communities, and the decline of cities during late Harappan times."

The new study suggests that the decline in monsoon rains led to weakened river dynamics, and played a critical role both in the development and the collapse of the Harappan culture, which relied on river floods to fuel their agricultural surpluses.

From the new research, a compelling picture of 10,000 years of changing landscapes emerges. Before the plain was massively settled, the wild and forceful Indus and its tributaries flowing from the Himalaya cut valleys into their own deposits and left high "interfluvial" stretches of land between them. In the east, reliable monsoon rains sustained perennial rivers that crisscrossed the desert leaving behind their sedimentary deposits across a broad region.

Among the most striking features the researchers identified is a mounded plain, 10 to 20 meters high, over 100 kilometers wide, and running almost 1000 kilometers along the Indus, they call the "Indus mega-ridge," built by the river as it purged itself of sediment along its lower course.

"At this scale, nothing similar has ever been described in the geomorphological literature," said Giosan. "The mega-ridge is a surprising indicator of the stability of Indus plain landscape over the last four millennia. Remains of Harappan settlements still lie at the surface of the ridge, rather than being buried underground."

Mapped on top of the vast Indo-Gangetic Plain, the archaeological and geological data shows instead that settlements bloomed along the Indus from the coast to the hills fronting the Himalayas, as weakened monsoons and reduced run-off from the mountains tamed the wild Indus and its Himalayan tributaries enough to enable agriculture along their banks.

"The Harappans were an enterprising people taking advantage of a window of opportunity – a kind of "Goldilocks civilization," said Giosan. "As monsoon drying subdued devastating floods, the land nearby the rivers - still fed with water and rich silt - was just right for agriculture. This lasted for almost 2,000 years, but continued aridification closed this favorable window in the end."

In another major finding, the researchers believe they have settled a long controversy about the fate of a mythical river, the Sarasvati. The Vedas, ancient Indian scriptures composed in Sanskrit over 3000 years ago, describe the region west of the Ganges as "the land of seven rivers." Easily recognizable are the Indus and its current tributaries, but the Sarasvati, portrayed as "surpassing in majesty and might all other waters" and "pure in her course from mountains to the ocean," was lost. Based on scriptural descriptions, it was believed that the Sarasvati was fed by perennial glaciers in the Himalayas. Today, the Ghaggar, an intermittent river that flows only during strong monsoons and dissipates into the desert along the dried course of Hakra valley, is thought to best approximate the location of the mythic Sarasvati, but its Himalayan origin and whether it was active during Vedic times remain controversial.

Archaeological evidence supports the Ghaggar-Hakra as the location of intensive settlement during Harappan times. The geological evidence—sediments, topography— shows that rivers were indeed sizable and highly active in this region, but most likely due to strong monsoons. There is no evidence of wide incised valleys like along the Indus and its tributaries and there is no cut-through, incised connections to either of the two nearby Himalayan-fed rivers of Sutlej and Yamuna. The new research argues that these crucial differences prove that the Sarasvati (Ghaggar-Hakra) was not Himalayan-fed, but a perennial monsoon-supported watercourse, and that aridification reduced it to short seasonal flows.

By 3900 years ago, their rivers drying, the Harappans had an escape route to the east toward the Ganges basin, where monsoon rains remained reliable.

"We can envision that this eastern shift involved a change to more localized forms of economy: smaller communities supported by local rain-fed farming and dwindling streams," said Fuller. "This may have produced smaller surpluses, and would not have supported large cities, but would have been reliable."

Such a system was not favorable for the Indus civilization, which had been built on bumper crop surpluses along the Indus and the Ghaggar-Hakra rivers in the earlier wetter era. This dispersal of population meant that there was no longer a concentration of workforce to support urbanism. "Thus cities collapsed, but smaller agricultural communities were sustainable and flourished. Many of the urban arts, such as writing, faded away, but agriculture continued and actually diversified," said Fuller.

"An amazing amount of archaeological work has been accumulating over the last decades, but it's never been linked properly to the evolution of the fluvial landscape. We now see landscape dynamics as the crucial link between climate change and people," said Giosan. "Today the Indus system feeds the largest irrigation scheme in the world, immobilizing the river in channels and behind dams. If the monsoon were to increase in a warming world, as some predict, catastrophic floods such as the humanitarian disaster of 2010, would turn the current irrigation system, designed for a tamer river, obsolete."

###
This work was funded by the National Science Foundation, the Leverhulme Trust, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, the University of Aberdeen, and Louisiana State University.

The Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution is a private, non-profit organization on Cape Cod, Mass., dedicated to marine research, engineering, and higher education. Established in 1930 on a recommendation from the National Academy of Sciences, its primary mission is to understand the oceans and their interaction with the Earth as a whole, and to communicate a basic understanding of the oceans' role in the changing global environment. For more information, please visit Home : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.

This also fits in with the assertion made by Henri-Paul Francfort (a French archaeologist and member ("directeur de recherches") of the CNRS)

However, Henri-Paul Francfort, utilizing images from the French satellite SPOT already two decades ago, found that the large river Sarasvati is pre-Harappan altogether and started drying up already in the middle of the 4th millennium BC; during Harappan times only a complex irrigation-canal network was being used. The date should therefore be pushed back to c 3800 BC.

Pretty devastating for the current form of the AIT if accepted.
 
The 1800 BC/2000 BC date is actually B. B. Lal's date, based on radio-carbon dating of something at Kalibangan. He forgets, or omits to mention what that object was. According to him, the riverbed dried up in 2000 BC, and therefore the Rg Veda needs to be dated earlier than that, perhaps much earlier than that, since the river might have taken up to five hundred years to dry up.

More than exaggerated, in my opinion; if we accept that his determination of the age of Kalibangan was well-conducted, we need not assign more than a hundred years to it being in full flow.




I don't think anyone is defending any invasion. Instead he is trying to make you see that the position and the actions that various parties took were more or less the same for both occasions.

I believe that is the correct position.

even if i buy his arguements ( which i am not)

if aryan invasion was true , then they assimilated culture from the local populace

gave them their knowledge, took something from their culture

and now tell me wat did islamic invasion took from our culture , did it change a bit ????
 
Because they have not yet been proved to be identical. Until such time as this is accepted generally, using an example of a site as further proof of that connection is obviously fallacious.

Then you would have to face the somewhat bizarre situation of cities belonging to two peoples, the Harappans and the Vedics, in close proximity, on the banks of the fully flowing Saraswati, at the same time. And explain why these next-door Harappans were never mentioned in the Vedas, when interactions with more distant clans receive considerable attention.
 
Then you would have to face the somewhat bizarre situation of cities belonging to two peoples, the Harrappans and the Vedics, in close proximity, at the same time. And explain why these next-door Harappans were never mentioned in the Vedas, when more interactions with more distant clans receive considerable attention.

Not cities. Decaying townships, little patches on it occupied by strangers.

The Vedas did mention walled townships......
 
The horse (ashva), cattle, sheep and goat play an important role in the Rigveda. There are also references to the elephant (Hastin, Varana), camel (Ustra, especially in Mandala 8), *** (khara, rasabha), buffalo (Mahisa), wolf, hyena, lion (Simha), mountain goat (sarabha) and to the gaur in the Rigveda.[40] The peafowl (mayura), the goose (hamsa) and the chakravaka (Anas casarca) are some birds mentioned in the Rigveda.

if rig veda was not written in india , how does i names of animals peculiar to india find mention in rig veda.

it is very foolish to believe that aryans were outsiders

maybe the iranian culture was an offshoot of indian aryan culture( asura-deva fight thing)

pardon me if am wrong
 
Not cities. Decaying townships, little patches on it occupied by strangers.

The Vedas did mention walled townships......

No reason for the supposed Harappans to be decaying, the Saraswati was in full flow. The Vedics mention their own settlements on the Saraswati. But (afaik) they do not mention any non-Arya cities on the Saraswati banks, despite having much to say about more distant peoples.

Combine that with the fact that the Vedics were, in earliest books of the Rig Veda, well acquainted with the Ganga and Yamuna, but not the Indus.
 
It was just because of the supremacist mentality of europeans that this theory of aryan invasion was propounded

it was hard for dem to swallow d fact that when the whole world was still living in dark ages

dere existed a society in india which came up with amazing jewels like vedas and upanishads,

more dan d vedas u will find some of the upanishads more exciting.... read MUNDAKA UPANISHADS, It discusses in depth about human psychology and when did the west come up with study on psychology only in the late 18th century

this aryan theory is just an effort to link the great works of our ancestors to europeans

INDIA WAS UNIQUE AND A SOLE IDENTITY OF ITS OWN!!!!!
 
The horse (ashva), cattle, sheep and goat play an important role in the Rigveda. There are also references to the elephant (Hastin, Varana), camel (Ustra, especially in Mandala 8), *** (khara, rasabha), buffalo (Mahisa), wolf, hyena, lion (Simha), mountain goat (sarabha) and to the gaur in the Rigveda.[40] The peafowl (mayura), the goose (hamsa) and the chakravaka (Anas casarca) are some birds mentioned in the Rigveda.

if rig veda was not written in india , how does i names of animals peculiar to india find mention in rig veda.

it is very foolish to believe that aryans were outsiders

maybe the iranian culture was an offshoot of indian aryan culture( asura-deva fight thing)

pardon me if am wrong

Just give the following a little kind thought.
Unlike Avesta, Rg Veda speaks of lion but the mention of tiger came much later in atharva veda.
Comparative philology is an exciting subject but you can not reach your answer,when you will find similar kind of words in other Indo-germanic language group.
 
Just give the following a little kind thought.
Unlike Avesta, Rg Veda speaks of lion but the mention of tiger came much later in atharva veda.

simha (lion) is found in india too if am right , gujrat

i did not get wat exactly u are trying to say
 
No reason for the supposed Harappans to be decaying, the Saraswati was in full flow. The Vedics mention their own settlements on the Saraswati. But (afaik) they do not mention any non-Arya cities on the Saraswati banks, despite having much to say about more distant peoples.

Combine that with the fact that the Vedics were, in earliest books of the Rig Veda, well acquainted with the Ganga and Yamuna, but not the Indus.

The shards of pottery were found in the middle of the river bed.

No reason for the supposed Harappans to be decaying, the Saraswati was in full flow. The Vedics mention their own settlements on the Saraswati. But (afaik) they do not mention any non-Arya cities on the Saraswati banks, despite having much to say about more distant peoples.

Combine that with the fact that the Vedics were, in earliest books of the Rig Veda, well acquainted with the Ganga and Yamuna, but not the Indus.


Surely you can see for yourself the fallacy in this line of analysis.

If it is possible to trace the temporal progress of a language, why is that analysis not acceptable when it shows that the most ancient part of the language matches the language of a western neighbour most closely?
 
It was just because of the supremacist mentality of europeans that this theory of aryan invasion was propounded

it was hard for dem to swallow d fact that when the whole world was still living in dark ages

dere existed a society in india which came up with amazing jewels like vedas and upanishads,

more dan d vedas u will find some of the upanishads more exciting.... read MUNDAKA UPANISHADS, It discusses in depth about human psychology and when did the west come up with study on psychology only in the late 18th century

this aryan theory is just an effort to link the great works of our ancestors to europeans

INDIA WAS UNIQUE AND A SOLE IDENTITY OF ITS OWN!!!!!


How do you get that connection with the Europeans flowing from the theory that the Indo-Aryan speaking migrants came into India from elsewhere? The Europeans were the first to acknowledge that these philosophical speculations were unique.
 
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