TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

[neokautilya2]

Well i wish to introduce an excerpt from Vivekanana's Book The East and the west . I hope this may help you realize that you all are mixed , non are pure . But we may take pride that we still behold the values our ancestors had .

right bro i.e what i have always believed

black , brown or white india is where the aryavarta is

 

[Rig Vedic]

Then how is it that you did not notice, before doing arati to it, that his paper on the Saraswati is largely based on analysis of the Vedas, for which he is singularly untrained? Unless knowledge of Classical Sanskrit automatically empowers you, as it seems to do for the entire revisionist pack.

As a matter of fact his paper is based on many inputs, including a considerable amount of material in the area of his core competency. It may not be possible for one person to simultaneously be an expert at archaeology, Vedic literature, satellite hydrology and genetics. Yet there is no reason why a person who may be conversant with a only subset of these disciplines should not draw on the knowledge of experts in the other fields, to assemble a big picture. But my previous point about valuing content over slavish attachment to titles stands.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And why should those two categories be distinct?


Because they have not yet been proved to be identical. Until such time as this is accepted generally, using an example of a site as further proof of that connection is obviously fallacious.


Sure, they may have their subculture but that need not have any genetic implication. And I had no intention of positing that. The genetic studies in fact show that both Adivasis and non-Adivasis are equally indigenous.

Nobody said that there were genetic implications other than you; it was, after all, you, who demonstrated his shakiness about concept by raising the issue of ANI and ASI. That itself shows that you do not what is going on.

If you had no intention of positing that, why did you post it in the first place?

Finally, regarding that risible statement that the genetic studies show that both Adivasis and non-Adivasis are equally indigenous. It does nothing of the kind. It merely shows that the two are homogenous, a completely different thing altogether.


err ... the "trash" is from a former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India, and Padma Bhushan awardee. But I mention that only because you are excessively enslaved to titles ... I prefer to look at content rather than personalities, and have no a-priori problem with the proverbial child who is unable to see the King's clothes.

An emperor without clothes remains without clothes, no matter how many titles he bears and how many distinctions he has achieved.

In your enthusiasm at finding a hopefully competent exponent of the Hindutvavadi theme about the Saraswati, you overlooked the fact that he achieved his distinctions in Archaeology, never, ever, in history, or in linguistics. I can understand the desperation of your search for authentic certification, but this was not it, he was not the man.

You have obviously not read the article yourself, as otherwise you would spotted the obvious blunders. Multiple blunders.

Very briefly as nothing seems to penetrate the impenetrable, my comments in blue.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well i wish to introduce an excerpt from Vivekanana's Book The East and the west . I hope this may help you realize that you all are mixed , non are pure . But we may take pride that we still behold the values our ancestors had .

This, unfortunately, shows all the hallmarks of the time when it was written. The assumptions within have been discredited and discarded nearly half a century ago. It has no meaning today, no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.

As a matter of fact his paper is based on many inputs, including a considerable amount of material in the area of his core competency. It may not be possible for one person to simultaneously be an expert at archaeology, Vedic literature, satellite hydrology and genetics. Yet there is no reason why a person who may be conversant with a only subset of these disciplines should not draw on the knowledge of experts in the other fields, to assemble a big picture. But my previous point about valuing content over slavish attachment to titles stands.

If he had done so, it would have been perhaps a completely different piece. Judging by his references, it is mostly his own work. Which is why he came to grief.

 

[Rig Vedic]

If he had done so, it would have been perhaps a completely different piece. Judging by his references, it is mostly his own work. Which is why he came to grief.

The references are in fact diverse. But we stress that it is the message that matters, not the messenger.

 

[Developereo]

this wholesale acceptance of a culture with no traces of an earlier culture having been replaced, nor remembered has almost no parallel & certainly not on this scale.

In two words: caste system.

Let me expand. A group of invaders (the "Aryans") came from the North West and, by means unspecified as yet, gained control of the ruling/priestly classes in Northern India. The means could have been military conquest, marriage, bribery, philosophical debate, whatever. That's an unknown, and a big hole, but let's leave that for now.

Once these invaders controlled the priesthood, they instituted a strict social hierarchy which would later evolve into the full blown caste system. The reason for this hierarchy was two-fold:

a) to keep their own "Aryan" race pure, and
b) to have strict control over all trans-generational cultural transmission. The masses were forbidden to know anything other than what the priesthood provided. It was a means of cultural genocide, pure and simple.

This had the effect of minimizing the genetic impact of/to the invaders and also wiping out any memory of indigenous culture. The Dravidian ruling elite were all for it since it ensured them an intellectually enslaved and docile populace. This appeal to the rulers may have helped spread this new ideology throughout North India and, later, beyond.

The Rg veda already speaks of fighting between clans (no castes yet) while by the time of the Mahabharata, castes are an established phenomenon.

Sure. The hierarchy I postulated above was the proto-caste system in place during the time of the Rg Veda. It only had three roles: Dravidian rulers, Aryan priesthood, and Dravidian masses. Over the centuries, this evolved into the full blown caste system where the Dravidian natives were incorporated into the priestly Brahmin classes, fully diluting the Aryan genes into the local gene pool. Also, by this time, the Aryan-imported Vedic culture had become the native culture. Indeed, the only culture.

Yet the Mahabharata enlists distant Aryan tribes from Afghanistan/Iran on the basis of kinship (which should have been long diluted & in case should not have been responded by parts of the tribes that were not incorporated into a local "Indian/Indus" population) suggesting an unbroken feeling of kinship between the diluted & the non-diluted. The other alternative would be to suggest that the distant Aryan tribes too were diluted similarly, yet still had an almost identical reaction of not remembering being any other people. I suppose possible theoretically but quite a stretch.

No issue here. The Aryan priesthood knew exactly where they had come from and whom they were related to. The Dravidian masses had been indoctrinated over so many generations now that they would chant anything.

You could push the dating of the events mentioned in the Mahabharata as far back as you want, it is just that it takes the Rg veda further back & that does not fit in with the AIT as propounded now.

I am not trying to push anything back. My earlier comment applies equally well to the Vedas. Barring archaeological or other independent evidence, there is no reason why any religious text should be taken at face value to refer to actual contemporary events. Even the oldest text could simply be retelling even older oral traditions and myths.

 

[neokautilya2]

In two words: caste system.

Let me expand. A group of invaders (the "Aryans") came from the North West and, by means unspecified as yet, gained control of the ruling/priestly classes in Northern India. The means could have been military conquest, marriage, bribery, philosophical debate, whatever. That's an unknown, and a big hole, but let's leave that for now.

Once these invaders controlled the priesthood, they instituted a strict social hierarchy which would later evolve into the full blown caste system. The reason for this hierarchy was two-fold:

a) to keep their own "Aryan" race pure, and
b) to have strict control over all trans-generational cultural transmission. The masses were forbidden to know anything other than what the priesthood provided. It was a means of cultural genocide, pure and simple.

This had the effect of minimizing the genetic impact of/to the invaders and also wiping out any memory of indigenous culture. The Dravidian ruling elite were all for it since it ensured them an intellectually enslaved and docile populace. This appeal to the rulers may have helped spread this new ideology throughout North India and, later, beyond.



Sure. The hierarchy I postulated above was the proto-caste system in place during the time of the Rg Veda. It only had three roles: Dravidian rulers, Aryan priesthood, and Dravidian masses. Over the centuries, this evolved into the full blown caste system where the Dravidian natives were incorporated into the priestly Brahmin classes, fully diluting the Aryan genes into the local gene pool. Also, by this time, the Aryan-imported Vedic culture had become the native culture. Indeed, the only culture.



No issue here. The Aryan priesthood knew exactly where they had come from and whom they were related to. The Dravidian masses had been indoctrinated over so many generations now that they would chant anything.



I am not trying to push anything back. My earlier comment applies equally well to the Vedas. There is no reason why any religious text should be taken at face value to refer to actual contemporary events. Even the oldest text could simply be retelling even older oral traditions and myths.

so according to ur prior given theories these dravidian ppl = indus valley ppl = pakistani ppl got mixed with aryan ppl?????

yes or no

 

[Developereo]

so according to ur prior given theories these dravidian ppl = indus valley ppl = pakistani ppl got mixed with aryan ppl?????

yes or no

The Aryans were a drop in the bucket and, like the Mughals, didn't affect the gene pool significantly. It was a cultural, not a demographic, conquest.

 

[Bang Galore]

In two words: caste system.

Let me expand. A group of invaders (the "Aryans") came from the North West and, by means unspecified as yet, gained control of the ruling/priestly classes in Northern India. The means could have been military conquest, marriage, bribery, philosophical debate, whatever. That's an unknown, and a big hole, but let's leave that for now.

Once these invaders controlled the priesthood, they instituted a strict social hierarchy which would later evolve into the full blown caste system. The reason for this hierarchy was two-fold:

a) to keep their own "Aryan" race pure, and
b) to have strict control over all trans-generational cultural transmission. The masses were forbidden to know anything other than what the priesthood provided. It was a means of cultural genocide, pure and simple.

This had the effect of minimizing the genetic impact of/to the invaders and also wiping out any memory of indigenous culture. The Dravidian ruling elite were all for it since it ensured them an intellectually enslaved and docile populace. This appeal to the rulers may have helped spread this new ideology throughout North India and, later, beyond.

Interesting but not based on evidence. Could it have happened? Sure, anything might have taken place. Considering your argument for a moment, there is absolutely no evidence of any caste formulation in the Rg Veda and, since the argument for AIT requires the people to have been settled there having already lost the memory of their past because of assimilation as an explanation for them having absolutely no memory of having come from any foreign land. Secondly, there are no non-Aryan names of any tribes mentioned in the Rg veda. Could there have been a compulsory complete brainwashing? Possible I guess but we would be stepping into some very uncharted waters & would be an accusation that I would not make without clear evidence to back that up. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, while europe has place-names & river-names from an earlier time before the arrival of the Indo-Europeans, there are no such names in Northern India dating all the way back to the Rg veda with all names having origin in Sanskrit & daughter languages. Nice theory, maybe possible even but no evidence for it thus far.

Sure. The hierarchy I postulated above was the proto-caste system in place during the time of the Rg Veda. It only had three roles: Dravidian rulers, Aryan priesthood, and Dravidian masses. Over the centuries, this evolved into the full blown caste system where the Dravidian natives were incorporated into the priestly Brahmin classes, fully diluting the Aryan genes into the local gene pool. Also, by this time, the Aryan-imported Vedic culture had become the native culture. Indeed, the only culture.

One problem, that is with the common understanding of the caste system. You are assuming that Brahmins were on top of system throughout (since they were okay with Dravidian rulers as per your theory) That was not always the case with the Kshatriyas not buying that theory & putting themselves on top of the pyramid & pushing Brahmins down. Nor was spiritual & philosophical learning limited to the Brahmins with Kshatriyas being well versed with such thinking & in some cases being acclaimed masters. It was only with the weakening of the Kshatriyas & the rise of Shudra kings(who required Brahmin assistance in order to obtain religious sanctity for their rule) that Brahmins became undisputed at the top of the caste system.

No issue here. The Aryan priesthood knew exactly where they had come from and whom they were related to. The Dravidian masses had been indoctrinated over so many generations now that they would chant anything.

If they knew, they did not say anything & in any case, we are talking about rulers; supposedly Dravidian in your theory.

 

[miss]

the turning point of indian subcontinent
Indian Plate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bang Galore]

A valid statement, if one makes discounting the OIT an axiom.

While the OIT is an interesting proposition, there is simply no archaeological evidence to back it up & conventional linguistic ideas seem to be against it. I'm aware that there are some passages in the Rg veda possibly mentioning a westward movement (The Anu-Druhyu Migrations) & somewhat close relationship with the Iranians depending on how you read the Avesta & the Rg veda but that alone does not constitute sufficient evidence. If I'm going to ask the likes of JS about the lack of archaeological evidence as well as literary evidence for the AIT, it would only be fair to require the same if I were to champion an alternate theory.

 

[scorpionx]

The civilization discontinuity after IVC has a clear effect on the subcontinent history. So many question remains unanswered.The IVC scripts,yet to be deciphered speaks a lot.
Just searching our identity through vedas had never been a conclusive method. More problem arises when we try to understand a text written in a language more close to Indo-Iranian language group by classical sanskrit. Most of the words lost its original meaning, clearly leading us to a more deceptive zone. But IVC, as it belongs to the same or almost same epoch,might hold some more definite answers to our queries.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@KingMamba93

Did I ever reply your post 408?

 

[Joe Shearer]

The civilization discontinuity after IVC has a clear effect on the subcontinent history. So many question remains unanswered.The IVC scripts,yet to be deciphered speaks a lot.
Just searching our identity through vedas had never been a conclusive method. More problem arises when we try to understand a text written in a language more close to Indo-Iranian language group by classical sanskrit. Most of the words lost its original meaning, clearly leading us to a more deceptive zone. But IVC, as it belongs to the same or almost same epoch,might hold some more definite answers to our queries.

To be perfectly honest, this discontinuity is not as sharp and as extreme as I have sometimes represented during the heat of an argument. There is evidence that late Harappan culture sites coexisted with one of the three pottery types associated with the Indo-Aryan immigrants, Black and Red Ware, Painted Gray Ware and Northern Black Polished ware. Secondly, while I have always treated the identification of the seated, horned figure on a Harappa seal with the Lord Shiva with disdain, I understand that a shiv-ling was found on one of the sites. Whether this was a complete freak chance or signifies a connection between the Lord Shiva's introduction to the Hindu pantheon and the encounter of the Indo-Aryans with the Harappa culture remains to be reviewed in detail. There are indications that cultivation methods were similar in Sindh; there is evidence that the type and design of the ox-cart has not changed substantially in Sind between the IVC and the present.

There was clearly a handing over of a highly degraded, debased version of the IVC to local survivor groups. The quality of this transmission is undetermined.

Remains of this evidence are largely found in the remains of the sites on the banks of the Hakkra/Ghaggra complex; it is thought that the floods and inundation of the lower Indus Valley have destroyed evidence of such co-existence.

 

[Bang Galore]

Assuming that this is true at some points, what does that give us? That was a river Saraswati which was in rude good health from the hydrological traces at the beginning of the second millennium, but which dried and shrank and disappeared perhaps around 1300 BC.

Basis for this assertion?